|
The number of reasons NOT to mech is quite huge. Already covered heavily in the thread, except few people have talked about Void Rays.
1) The present unit balance:
Voids are sick good, they eat all mech units for lunch, and if the terran invests in vikings too heavily the templar sort them out. Immortals are still good. But why build voids and imms when you can build Tempests? They...win...betterer. Yeah.
2) The past unit balance.
Before the HotS skytoss buffs, there were no omglazervods and temps, and yet the immortal / templar comps owned mech anyway. It was never particularly viable BEFORE HotS - and terran ground isn't massively different, since Mines cost supply. They sort of tried with the energy removal and the alternate AA mode - but the 250mm cannon gives up the one advantage the Thor had - splash damage versus stacking of Voids. So even if they removed Tempests from the game tomorrow, and didn't nerf hellbats, mech would STILL suck. That's how bad it is.
3) The "why" question.
Bio is...better. Easier and most consistent in its harass, more mobile, more scalable with gamestate (you don't need eco advantage to contemplate it), isn't hard-countered by any composition, replaceable and gas-efficient. You'd be an idiot to go anything else for any reason but variety's sake AND a desire to never win.
4) The future.
Blizzard don't like mech. They gave Zerg two new hard-counter units, both of them earlier tier tech than the existing Broodlord. They gave Protoss two new hard-counter units, in addition to the existing immortal. They don't like slow passive games. They will never improve mech, so stop wasting your time and breath on the subject.
I love going against the tide when it comes to strats and styles, and questioning established wisdom even more - but mech is doomed.
|
On July 14 2013 23:52 DaemonX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The number of reasons NOT to mech is quite huge. Already covered heavily in the thread, except few people have talked about Void Rays.
1) The present unit balance:
Voids are sick good, they eat all mech units for lunch, and if the terran invests in vikings too heavily the templar sort them out. Immortals are still good. But why build voids and imms when you can build Tempests? They...win...betterer. Yeah.
2) The past unit balance.
Before the HotS skytoss buffs, there were no omglazervods and temps, and yet the immortal / templar comps owned mech anyway. It was never particularly viable BEFORE HotS - and terran ground isn't massively different, since Mines cost supply. Even if they removed Tempests from the game tomorrow, nerfed voids into the ground and didn't nerf hellbats mech would STILL suck. That's how bad it is.
3) The "why" question.
Bio is...better. Easier and most consistent in its harass, more mobile, more scalable with gamestate (you don't need eco advantage to contemplate it), isn't hard-countered by any composition, replaceable and gas-efficient. You'd be an idiot to go anything else for any reason but variety's sake AND a desire to never win.
4) The future.
Blizzard don't like mech. They gave Zerg two new hard-counter units, both of them earlier tier tech than the existing Broodlord. They gave Protoss two new hard-counter units, in addition to the existing immortal. They don't like slow passive games. They will never improve mech, so stop wasting your time and breath on the subject.
I love going against the tide when it comes to strats and styles, and questioning established wisdom even more - but mech is doomed.
Now I'm sad. 
|
On July 14 2013 23:52 DaemonX wrote:
The number of reasons NOT to mech is quite huge. Already covered heavily in the thread, except few people have talked about Void Rays.
1) The present unit balance:
Voids are sick good, they eat all mech units for lunch, and if the terran invests in vikings too heavily the templar sort them out. Immortals are still good. But why build voids and imms when you can build Tempests? They...win...betterer. Yeah.
2) The past unit balance.
Before the HotS skytoss buffs, there were no omglazervods and temps, and yet the immortal / templar comps owned mech anyway. It was never particularly viable BEFORE HotS - and terran ground isn't massively different, since Mines cost supply. They sort of tried with the energy removal and the alternate AA mode - but the 250mm cannon gives up the one advantage the Thor had - splash damage versus stacking of Voids. So even if they removed Tempests from the game tomorrow, and didn't nerf hellbats, mech would STILL suck. That's how bad it is.
3) The "why" question.
Bio is...better. Easier and most consistent in its harass, more mobile, more scalable with gamestate (you don't need eco advantage to contemplate it), isn't hard-countered by any composition, replaceable and gas-efficient. You'd be an idiot to go anything else for any reason but variety's sake AND a desire to never win.
4) The future.
Blizzard don't like mech. They gave Zerg two new hard-counter units, both of them earlier tier tech than the existing Broodlord. They gave Protoss two new hard-counter units, in addition to the existing immortal. They don't like slow passive games. They will never improve mech, so stop wasting your time and breath on the subject.
I love going against the tide when it comes to strats and styles, and questioning established wisdom even more - but mech is doomed.
The problem is that your post is only talking about compositions and directs battles, and you seems to assume that the terran is only going for some kind of tank/viking (like most people who try to demolish mech while having exactly 0 knowledge about it, aka most 'anti mech' posters on this thread), so let's correct it a bit :
1) VR may be strong vs mech, but they're not cheap and easy to mass and any kind of AOE for the T player means he has to micro his VRs heavily (and then it means they just don't shoot, hey), especially if there is ravens on the field.
2) It was already possible to win vs immortal/HT based army even before HOTS with pure mech, by using a tons of hellions well micro'd to snipe HT (could also be done with tanks) and ripe immortal's shields (and this became better in Hots with hellbats + few medivacs, which just won't die to immortals), but any decent form of TvP mech will at some point include ghosts versus this kind of play, meaning that immortals become nothing but tank with less range and no AOE, and well, no energy HTs will have to morph into archons and . . ghost. Don't talk about something you don't know anything about, mech may not be the strongest thing ever, but no, any decent mech player won't just get owned by an immortal/HT army (or then it's not a decent mech player) just because these units are supposed to be the counter to TANK (not to the whole mech army)
3) Bio is better, but this doesn't mean it's fun to play for everyone. My personal advice is that playing bio is all about looking cute with drops and stuff while knowing you have to exploit some windows in midgame (and that you are very weak at some windows, too), going into a lategame where you have to win 3 fights in a row (and by win, i mean crushing him with at least enough of your army to fight a warp in + planetary nexus; and using it to take down a base) while 1 defeat often lead to a crushing loss. May be only my own point of view, but for me that's enough to want to play mech
4) Probably the only thing where i agree at least a bit with you, even if i don't see how oracle is supposed to be a counter to mech specifically
|
Since I started this thread I guess I should get my current opinion after having played 1000+ more mech games:
I think Mech is viable at least under pro level, as long as you do the following:
1. Go Marine/Tank early game
2. Go Tank/Thor/Hellion/Hellbat/Ghost midgame.
3. Go Thor/Raven/Ghost late game.
I think the reason Mech do not work for many people is that they
a) Try go get mech too fast. You really need lots of un-upgraded marines to compliment your tanks early game or you natural will fall.
b) Try to use Tanks after early game. I typically never build more than 4-6 tanks, after that Thors works much better since they can fight both ground and air.
c) Get upgrades too early. You really need to prioritize unit number and getting Ghosts more than being behind on upgrades. Being behind on upgrades using bio is bad, with Mech it does not matter as much.
d) Do not realise that Raven/Ghost is insanely good in those late game scenarios where you both are on 4+ bases and Protoss invest in lots of pop efficient and gas heavy units. There is no Protoss combo that hard counters Thor/Raven/Ghost given equal resources.
That said Mech is really vulnerable during the transition from Mech/Ghost to Mech/Ghost/Raven. After that, not so much.
|
Mech is absolutely viable unless you're grandmaster or pro.
All the "counters" to mech are countered by one unit : the Raven. PDD block tempests shots (which are very slow), missile seekers DESTROYS void rays if they're not splitted (which mean they don't shoot), Thors don't have energy anymore, Battlehellions are much better at tanking damage and melting chargelots, and immortals are not an issue thanks to seeker missile (which ignore the shield) + the buffer of battlehellions in front or your gas units.
|
The more I play around with Ghost-Viking with Thor-Hellbat-Raven in the lategame the more certain I am that it is fully viable below pro-level. I would even say that mech is stronger than bio on some maps. You do have to over-invest in turret-sensortower and pfs though, your Static defence ring should look a bit ridicolous imo. And in the late-game you don't want any tanks at all.
The only viable tech patch for the toss is carrier, tempest with mass cannon-templar support
The MMM-VG is twice as hard to control.
I would like to stick my neck out and say that during the next 6-7 months we will see a rise of mech play TvP. It's all about safety and transitions I think. Protoss is immensely powerful during the early game, their flexibility is unparalleled in the rts world. But I dare to say that if you get the ghost-viking-Thor-raven comp with a good eco you can stomp the toss.
|
On July 15 2013 02:08 MockHamill wrote:
Since I started this thread I guess I should get my current opinion after having played 1000+ more mech games:
I think Mech is viable at least under pro level, as long as you do the following:
1. Go Marine/Tank early game
2. Go Tank/Thor/Hellion/Hellbat/Ghost midgame.
3. Go Thor/Raven/Ghost late game.
I think the reason Mech do not work for many people is that they
a) Try go get mech too fast. You really need lots of un-upgraded marines to compliment your tanks early game or you natural will fall.
b) Try to use Tanks after early game. I typically never build more than 4-6 tanks, after that Thors works much better since they can fight both ground and air.
c) Get upgrades too early. You really need to prioritize unit number and getting Ghosts more than being behind on upgrades. Being behind on upgrades using bio is bad, with Mech it does not matter as much.
d) Do not realise that Raven/Ghost is insanely good in those late game scenarios where you both are on 4+ bases and Protoss invest in lots of pop efficient and gas heavy units. There is no Protoss combo that hard counters Thor/Raven/Ghost given equal resources.
That said Mech is really vulnerable during the transition from Mech/Ghost to Mech/Ghost/Raven. After that, not so much.
Agree with this mostly. I just don't see the real use in the raven lategame..
Smart protoss imo just goes massively into skytoss + immortals against mech, just a couple voids the rest carrier and non-stop immortal from one robo. Maxed out that beats any terran mech composition really since carriers are supply efficient against anything (except BCs maybe). I really don't get why you would always get ravens with mech.. their gas cost doesn't synergize with mech at all and they are only good against bad anti-mech protoss play imo like mass tempest or mass voids. If protoss get's mostly carrier they do nothing (raven's are just a juicy unit to snipe) and they prevent the max out.
I think mech is usually on a clock against toss going into skytoss and should just open with some sort of marine/mine/tank into thor/hellbat/ghost/viking and play aggressively from that point before P actually get's too much air. Traditional maxing out and playing super defensive is not the way to go against carrier imo (though arguably few P do this and go with silly stuff like mass zealot/archon).
P in general make so many mistakes playing against mech though when you see it, it's rediculous but just the result of mech being too rare. I really wish mech would get a good buff just because as protoss it's so much more fun playing against mech occasionally than just bio only. Thors need a slight AA buff for both modes imo (buff for first mode against muta basically and second mode for P air really) and tanks still need some tiny buff.
Mech wasn't viable (ie close to as good as bio) before patch but now it's just even more. It's just so silly
|
Tanks are entirely unnecessary unless your opponent is getting tons of colossus/stalkers. The Thor is the best unit TvP particularly now that Terran has a unit (hellbat) that can tank zealot damage without instadying, as thors are not good at killing zealots. IMO the best way to go into mech is a cloaked banshee 1-1-1 with a cc behind it as it forces your opponent to not play super greedy and deals with some of the extreme immobility of mid-game mech. Combined with hellbat drops they just make the Protoss play defensively like yourself (mech) and get stalkers, which are bad vs mech. Then you are on even bases and either a better economy or a better army composition and you can push if they have lots of stalkers and kill a base or if they are behind in economy you can max out and push then.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
