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On May 29 2013 04:31 Markwerf wrote:
Long story short, what is stopping blizzard from adding a little upgrade that buffs tanks and/or thors against protoss. Bonus to mechanical might be risky as it could spoil the fun in TvT but with careful consideration it can be done.
I believe Blizzard stated why in not-so-subtle manners. They don't want strategies that force turtling, resulting in boring and long games. Read "Situation Report" and how strong Blizzard's anti-mech sentiment is.
You can't expect honest words out of a corporation's PR. But Blizzard said in many times in many words "No" to mech TvP. I think it's time to let it go until LOTV beta.
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Mech is ok a long as you have scouted your opponent correctly
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Mech or bio is a complet different style.
I am P master who win vs top master bio and lose to mid master mech because i am not used to play vs mech.
And tank are quite good and the mine harass are a good option too.
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Blizzard failed with mech play on HotS after they removed the warhound which was the perfect counter to immortals which have made the terran mech deathball playable.
Sure you can mech in tvp aswell but only if you are very skilled and your opponent is not or you have a lot of luck in the positioning/engagement or you open your match with a very sucessfull cheese.
I think thats the key points here...
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Mech works fine vs Protoss it just functions differently. And saying Immortals counter tanks is a joke. Tanks shred immortals before they get more than a couple of shots off (talking 6+immortals) and a mine will instantly remove the shield and you'll have either ehllions or hellbats between the tanks and immortals.
Mech is fine it's not weak like people say I'm masters and I only ever mech. Yeah tanks so considerably less damage than broodwar and nothing truely fills the role of the vulture and goliath but it's still viable.
The only issue I find is that in TvP I need to transition into thors > tanks in the end game which is irritating but it's still mech.
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I kind of wish hellbats had 2 attacks instead of one to wear down the immortals shield faster.
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On June 14 2013 10:06 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 04:31 Markwerf wrote:
Long story short, what is stopping blizzard from adding a little upgrade that buffs tanks and/or thors against protoss. Bonus to mechanical might be risky as it could spoil the fun in TvT but with careful consideration it can be done. I believe Blizzard stated why in not-so-subtle manners. They don't want strategies that force turtling, resulting in boring and long games. Read "Situation Report" and how strong Blizzard's anti-mech sentiment is. You can't expect honest words out of a corporation's PR. But Blizzard said in many times in many words "No" to mech TvP. I think it's time to let it go until LOTV beta.
Yet Blizzard introduced the Swarmhost, a unit that when used defensively results in turtling, boring and long games (see Tod vs Stephano from DH Summer that was played yesterday. Day[9] also did a daily (595) on it http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-595-stephano-s-stupid-zvp-style-p1-6602920 ). The Siege Tank needed a buff, badly. But it never got one.
Instead, Blizzard introduced the Hellbat, whose defined role is to counter Zealots, yet Hellbats are used far more often for dropping and killing workers, which was predicted by the community, yet it was released in such a state despite the warning from the community. And now it appears it will require Blizzard two nerfs in order to fix. And don't be surprised if the Hellbat disappears after the second nerf.
Why couldn't Blizzard have had any foresight? Why couldn't they have listened to the community, to simple logic, or to the experience we all had with blue flame Hellions? It certainly doesn't require Nostradamus to figure out how a new unit will effect the game. I wrote the following on both this forum and Blizzard's forum a week after getting Beta access, back in October (~5 months before they released HOTS):
On October 27 2012 15:50 BronzeKnee wrote:
The Hellbat is also too cost effective for a mineral only unit. It is not only an effective main line fighter but it can still harass very effectively. Furthermore, when dropped from Medivacs Hellbats easily wipe out a mineral line in a few shots with it's wide arc of fire. Think pre-nerf Blue Flame Hellions!
I'm happy I'm not the only one who thinks Blizzard completely failed when it came to making Mech viable in HOTS, and not the only one who thinks that some heads need to roll in order for SC2 to reach it's potential. Maybe when even more people realize it, it will happen.
Blizzard is clueless. Hellbats did little to make Mech viable in TvP and the needed buff to Siege Tanks never came. Thankfully, it doesn't effect 95% of players. Mech works in TvP for the vast majority of players. But Blizzard destroyed any hope of us watching amazing Mech play come out of the top players in the world.
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On June 18 2013 00:29 BronzeKnee wrote:
Blizzard is clueless. Thankfully, it doesn't effect 95% of players. Mech works in TvP for the vast majority of players.
By effecting the pro players it effects 100% of the spectators.
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i gave up on hoping that blizzard will buff tanks... crap since 2010
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On June 14 2013 19:15 battleboy wrote:
Blizzard failed with mech play on HotS after they removed the warhound which was the perfect counter to immortals which have made the terran mech deathball playable.
Sure you can mech in tvp aswell but only if you are very skilled and your opponent is not or you have a lot of luck in the positioning/engagement or you open your match with a very sucessfull cheese.
I think thats the key points here...
you couldnt be more wrong.
mech is as viable as bio, its just not figured out by pro players because bio still works.
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Why should you guys shouldn't be able to use mech vs protoss?
If you guys can two kinds of ground force tech paths against us, does that mean blizzard will make it so our Tier 1 doesn't get completely shredded against your Tier 1?
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me and HTOmario mech against protoss quite often
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Honestly, bio is straight up better. A lot of P just don't play vs. much mech so I can see how it might seem strong, it would be a pocket composition at the most. Tanks just suck against Protoss.
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On June 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote:
Honestly, bio is straight up better. A lot of P just don't play vs. much mech so I can see how it might seem strong, it would be a pocket composition at the most. Tanks just suck against Protoss.
Says the mid to high Silver Terran that knows his shit.
Some pretty bad Terrans got pretty damn far playing mech. That obviously shows how bad it is.
Tanks suck? You suck using tanks.
You played 5 Mech games over 2 months with no idea of what your build could look like and lost 4 of those games.
Obviously mech sucks!
Take a month, take half a year to figure it out and THEN you can know if it's any good or not, but maybe you are just not good with mech because your strengths are not in army positioning but in stutter stepping?
But most of you played a single game of Mech sitting back in your base trying to get a good Tank count but die to a fast Oracle or a Blink all-in and run crying to your mommy.
If you haven't tried it, you cannot know.
If you haven't tried to make it work hard you haven't tried at all.
So 99.9% of the Terrans saying "mech is bad because Immortal OP" just never ever tried. Fuck them. Decide for yourself and don't give up as soon as you see a tiny little problem. . .
To sum up:
Unless you gave it your honest best shot over a long preiod of time you don't know if it is better or not. If you gave it your best shot over a lont time you would be like HTOMario and run from mid Diamong into GM ezpz.
So don't cry on a forum but analyze some reps and then do dat shit yourself for at least two months. Come back after those two months and write your opinion!
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On June 19 2013 20:30 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote:
Honestly, bio is straight up better. A lot of P just don't play vs. much mech so I can see how it might seem strong, it would be a pocket composition at the most. Tanks just suck against Protoss. Says the mid to high Silver Terran that knows his shit. Some pretty bad Terrans got pretty damn far playing mech. That obviously shows how bad it is. Tanks suck? You suck using tanks. You played 5 Mech games over 2 months with no idea of what your build could look like and lost 4 of those games. Obviously mech sucks! Take a month, take half a year to figure it out and THEN you can know if it's any good or not, but maybe you are just not good with mech because your strengths are not in army positioning but in stutter stepping? But most of you played a single game of Mech sitting back in your base trying to get a good Tank count but die to a fast Oracle or a Blink all-in and run crying to your mommy. If you haven't tried it, you cannot know. If you haven't tried to make it work hard you haven't tried at all. So 99.9% of the Terrans saying "mech is bad because Immortal OP" just never ever tried. Fuck them. Decide for yourself and don't give up as soon as you see a tiny little problem. . . To sum up: Unless you gave it your honest best shot over a long preiod of time you don't know if it is better or not. If you gave it your best shot over a lont time you would be like HTOMario and run from mid Diamong into GM ezpz.
LOL. Dont believe quantum mechanics, derive your own formalism...
OT: Its safe to say when there is no mech play (outside of the 3 Dwf rules) in GSL, its not viable. No need to even discuss this.
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On June 14 2013 19:15 battleboy wrote:
Blizzard failed with mech play on HotS after they removed the warhound which was the perfect counter to immortals which have made the terran mech deathball playable.
Sure you can mech in tvp aswell but only if you are very skilled and your opponent is not or you have a lot of luck in the positioning/engagement or you open your match with a very sucessfull cheese.
I think thats the key points here...
HAHAHAHA
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On June 19 2013 20:35 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 20:30 rEalGuapo wrote:On June 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote:
Honestly, bio is straight up better. A lot of P just don't play vs. much mech so I can see how it might seem strong, it would be a pocket composition at the most. Tanks just suck against Protoss. Says the mid to high Silver Terran that knows his shit. Some pretty bad Terrans got pretty damn far playing mech. That obviously shows how bad it is. Tanks suck? You suck using tanks. You played 5 Mech games over 2 months with no idea of what your build could look like and lost 4 of those games. Obviously mech sucks! Take a month, take half a year to figure it out and THEN you can know if it's any good or not, but maybe you are just not good with mech because your strengths are not in army positioning but in stutter stepping? But most of you played a single game of Mech sitting back in your base trying to get a good Tank count but die to a fast Oracle or a Blink all-in and run crying to your mommy. If you haven't tried it, you cannot know. If you haven't tried to make it work hard you haven't tried at all. So 99.9% of the Terrans saying "mech is bad because Immortal OP" just never ever tried. Fuck them. Decide for yourself and don't give up as soon as you see a tiny little problem. . . To sum up: Unless you gave it your honest best shot over a long preiod of time you don't know if it is better or not. If you gave it your best shot over a lont time you would be like HTOMario and run from mid Diamong into GM ezpz. LOL. Dont believe quantum mechanics, derive your own formalism... OT: Its safe to say when there is no mech play (outside of the 3 Dwf rules) in GSL, its not viable. No need to even discuss this.
Do you participate in the GSL?
Do you know their reasons?
Will you forever keep doing what people say is "normal"? Have fun living in your hillbilly house with 1.7 kids, a dog, a wive that doesn't really love you, a boring ass job that pays average, with little vacation, while cheering for the local sports team or watching retarded shows like biggest loser.
Well, guess my absence in the strategy Forum was smarter than expected, people like you will always bleak what someone else tells you and feel smart because your opinion is popular. I'm off lifting some heavy weights and then do some bitches.
HF
Edit: Also, every single strategy in the history of gaming was not seen at pro level play untill it was. Doesn't mean it would have been worse before, just that it was not popular or undiscovered.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 19 2013 20:39 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 20:35 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On June 19 2013 20:30 rEalGuapo wrote:On June 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote:
Honestly, bio is straight up better. A lot of P just don't play vs. much mech so I can see how it might seem strong, it would be a pocket composition at the most. Tanks just suck against Protoss. Says the mid to high Silver Terran that knows his shit. Some pretty bad Terrans got pretty damn far playing mech. That obviously shows how bad it is. Tanks suck? You suck using tanks. You played 5 Mech games over 2 months with no idea of what your build could look like and lost 4 of those games. Obviously mech sucks! Take a month, take half a year to figure it out and THEN you can know if it's any good or not, but maybe you are just not good with mech because your strengths are not in army positioning but in stutter stepping? But most of you played a single game of Mech sitting back in your base trying to get a good Tank count but die to a fast Oracle or a Blink all-in and run crying to your mommy. If you haven't tried it, you cannot know. If you haven't tried to make it work hard you haven't tried at all. So 99.9% of the Terrans saying "mech is bad because Immortal OP" just never ever tried. Fuck them. Decide for yourself and don't give up as soon as you see a tiny little problem. . . To sum up: Unless you gave it your honest best shot over a long preiod of time you don't know if it is better or not. If you gave it your best shot over a lont time you would be like HTOMario and run from mid Diamong into GM ezpz. LOL. Dont believe quantum mechanics, derive your own formalism... OT: Its safe to say when there is no mech play (outside of the 3 Dwf rules) in GSL, its not viable. No need to even discuss this. Do you participate in the GSL? Do you know their reasons? Will you forever keep doing what people say is "normal"? Have fun living in your hillbilly house with 1.7 kids, a dog, a wive that doesn't really love you, a boring ass job that pays average, with little vacation, while cheering for the local sports team or watching retarded shows like biggest loser. Well, guess my absence in the strategy Forum was smarter than expected, people like you will always bleak what someone else tells you and feel smart because your opinion is popular. I'm off lifting some heavy weights and then do some bitches. HF Edit: Also, every single strategy in the history of gaming was not seen at pro level play untill it was. Doesn't mean it would have been worse before, just that it was not popular or undiscovered.
blabla stop being so rediculous in defending mech. Sure not seeing it at pro level is not 'proof' but a good indication. Plus the fact there are lot's of problems with it that are hard to deal with like immortals and protoss air it isn't hard to see mech is just not that good. Your silly argument can be used to show mass air, mass thor whatever is also viable but just not explored etc.
Mech plain stinks compared to bio in TvP, every good player agrees on that. Just end this silly discussion, besides mech will probably be nerfed even more because the hellbat in itself may be a little too good mooting the discussion even more.
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The only problem in mech is that it's too expensive, not really cost effective, and the tanks doesn't fullfil their role of controling positions. Since the tanks are not going to get any buff, mech will never be really viable. At least give a bonus damage against shields, or an upgrade, i don't know.
Right now, MMMVG is still the best way to play TvP, and adding maybe some hellbats + mines.
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I've lost to a few meching Terrans on the ladder, but they all used Ghosts. The trick is scouting it early and reacting properly.
I think the biggest error Terrans make when they make is commit too much to ground.. a good Protoss will immediately transition to air + Templar when reading mech. Therefore I think it's important to start making/upgrading Vikings early and not overmake Tank/Hellbat. GHOSTS are also very important. When you knock the shields off Immortals they die very fast. And obviously they're necessary against Templar for EMP.
Also, late game Ravens w/ seeker missiles are REALLY good against a bunch of clumped up Voids.
TLDR I think the reason "Mech doesn't work" is because people think mech should be only Tanks and Hellbats. Keep in mind that if you made pure Tank Vulture in BW, you'd lose to Carriers then too :p
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EPT
