EPT[D] Innovation's TvZ (CC first) - Page 3
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llIH
Norway2144 Posts
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netherh
United Kingdom333 Posts
On May 18 2013 01:24 llIH wrote: Still can't wait to see first and second game of InNovation vs Roro. Do anyone know if he did the same build all three games? Nope, he does different builds in all the games. The first game is a variation on the build in the OP (no marauder, make 6 hellions, then widow mines). The second game is proxy 2 rax, and the third hellbat drops. Here's my notes on the build in the first game, in case someone finds them interesting: + Show Spoiler + Build Order: • 14 CC (low ground) @2:20 ○ brief pause before 15 SCV ○ Orbital @3:45 • Barracks @2:40 ○ brief pause before 16 SCV • 16 Gas @2:50 • Bunker @3:50 ○ use CC SCV? • Factory, Reactor on Barracks @4:30 ○ (after 2 marines) • Depot @5:00 • 3rd CC @5:30 ○ float out to 3rd base @8:00 • Swap Factory and Barracks ○ 6 hellions, then widow mines (get stim then cs) • 2nd Gas @6:30 • 2 Ebays @7:10 • 2 Barracks and 2 Gas @8:00 ○ Reactors when done • Starport, 2 Barracks @8:30 ○ Reactors when done • Armory ○ get vehicle plating • 5th + 6th gas @10:15 • 2nd Factory @11:45 ○ Tech Lab when done (get drilling claws) ○ Make 1 seige tanks, then mines • 3 more barracks, turrets ~12:30? • 4th CC @13:00 ○ Planetary Actions / Scouting: SCV scout: @3:05 (arrive @4:00) Scout with 16th SCV Check for gas, then go home If gas: Maybe 4 hellions + marauder, then tanks? else 6 hellions, then widow mines? Hellions: Check for 3rd base and Evos at nat? Keep hellions alive! Stay active on map: Clear watch towers Clear 3rd base Hunt zerglings off creep Clear creep tumors, but don't go on creep 3rd base: Build bunker at 3rd when moving it out. Send 4 marines + 1 widow mine. Scan: @10:30 Look for spire / lair??? Follow up scan if missed??? Army: Move out @11:30 Clear creep, but dont' commit to engagements Leave a widow mine burrowed at edge of creep when pulling back Try to fight zerg units off creep if possible (defend + try to trap zerg army). Take ground with tank + mines, rally out to army. I haven't really got round to trying it on ladder yet though. Note that there's probably some fairly crucial reactions to scouting gas / no third base from the zerg (make tanks? delay 3rd CC?) not covered in this. | ||
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Acreno
Poland9 Posts
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WindCalibur
Canada938 Posts
On May 18 2013 03:06 Acreno wrote: I played today about 6 games vs zerg and ... everyone maked some roach allin from 2 bases :/ Its look like new way to beat terrans. If push hit later (~10:00 min) its prety easy to defend. Just 3 bunkers, lot of mines and mass repair. The problem is when this push is earlier .. quite hard to defend with 1 bunker, 2 mines or tank playing this build or I dont know how ? The 2nd and 3rd barrack timing is very important. Might be worth it to drop down the two barrack before engin and add 2 additional bunkers. In fact, the strict timing of the 2 barracks is the only paper thin defence that allows this build to be safe. Innovation has been doing alooooot of variations of this build. In fact, this build does not deviate from the 2x reaper into 6 hellion, 2 mine with 2 reactor swap build that he used very often before. It all depends on what your goal is. The beauty of this build does not lie within the supply numbers and building timings. Its purpose is to give Terrans a large amount of options while keeping an economical edge. Theoretically, everything can be held if you react fast enough and scout it beforehand. However, since ladder zergs don't want to vs 3 CC, they usually just roach bust you because they don't want to go into a macro game against this build. In this case, you need to keep making marauders and keep up the mine production. Also note that in case the zerg decides to make a lot of lings and banelings for a bust, especially early on (8 minutes), making more than 6 hellions is better than relying on mines to do money shots. | ||
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Acreno
Poland9 Posts
On May 18 2013 03:35 WindCalibur wrote: The 2nd and 3rd barrack timing is very important. Might be worth it to drop down the two barrack before engin and add 2 additional bunkers. In fact, the strict timing of the 2 barracks is the only paper thin defence that allows this build to be safe. Innovation has been doing alooooot of variations of this build. In fact, this build does not deviate from the 2x reaper into 6 hellion, 2 mine with 2 reactor swap build that he used very often before. It all depends on what your goal is. The beauty of this build does not lie within the supply numbers and building timings. Its purpose is to give Terrans a large amount of options while keeping an economical edge. Theoretically, everything can be held if you react fast enough and scout it beforehand. However, since ladder zergs don't want to vs 3 CC, they usually just roach bust you because they don't want to go into a macro game against this build. In this case, you need to keep making marauders and keep up the mine production. Also note that in case the zerg decides to make a lot of lings and banelings for a bust, especially early on (8 minutes), making more than 6 hellions is better than relying on mines to do money shots. Thanks ! Your advices help me a lot  One more question .. if I scout roach warren how should looks my addons on 5 rax ? I feel 4 reactors and 1 techlab is prety bad if he is going for many roaches. | ||
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VBBandit
Australia20 Posts
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Nexic
United States729 Posts
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buchaa
Pakistan77 Posts
thanks for this... | ||
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marine63
43 Posts
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Moosy
Canada396 Posts
- Build cc on high ground (incredibly safe vs 10 pool or early lings. - the scv that finishes the rax builds a bunker on the low ground. - make 6 hellions, no more no less. followed by widow mines (build starport for reactor if u scout early roaches because medis are more vital vs roach play. - u stop on 3 bases and have 7/8 barracks + 2 fact + 1 starport and u just keep producting marine, mine, medivacs (marauders too depending on zerg composition) the goal is to get this setup and full three base saturation (60-70 scvs) | ||
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megid
Brazil142 Posts
I already open 1 rax / CC into 3 CC with double upgrades, god damn fuck it's not greed enough ?! I don't think more greedy play is what Terran needs right now on Hots, plz don't bash me  it's just my opinion. | ||
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Smittmeister
11 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 22 2013 16:33 Moosy wrote: ive thoroughly studied innovation's playstyle hots in all 3 matchups. some adjustments to your build would be. - Build cc on high ground (incredibly safe vs 10 pool or early lings. - the scv that finishes the rax builds a bunker on the low ground. - make 6 hellions, no more no less. followed by widow mines (build starport for reactor if u scout early roaches because medis are more vital vs roach play. - u stop on 3 bases and have 7/8 barracks + 2 fact + 1 starport and u just keep producting marine, mine, medivacs (marauders too depending on zerg composition) the goal is to get this setup and full three base saturation (60-70 scvs) Bogus plays 4M with 70-75 SCVs. | ||
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sixilli
51 Posts
On May 22 2013 22:45 megid wrote: I like any contribution for the site but i would like to see a day when Terran will have any content on TL which is not a CC first . I don't like CC first builds and it don't work for me at all, so many players already know this type of builds and do 2 base allins all the time, every time i try it on ladder (diamond) i lose sooo many games even with a good scout. I don't advice this build if u r not a very high on the ladder. CC first in general is a pretty old build that always back ... I already open 1 rax / CC into 3 CC with double upgrades, god damn fuck it's not greed enough ?! I don't think more greedy play is what Terran needs right now on Hots, plz don't bash me it's just my opinion.Your opinion is more than fair and I can back up what you're saying. Holding early aggression with this build is a living hell. If you hold you win, if you don't you lose. I still love this build but roach rushes are getting really annoying. | ||
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isaachukfan
Canada785 Posts
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eMM
Australia34 Posts
However, I personally think it is a bad idea for lower league players due to a few things: 1) As previously mentioned, terran possess many aggressive (and safe) openings that can put put pressure on the zerg from the get go. Being on the front foot, you are then knocking on Z's door, inviting them to make mistakes and win the game rather than the opposite. 2) Lower level zergs are much more prone to early pressure (and all ins). I have played Z up to low masters, and I have to say up to around high diamond, the 28 food 6-7 roach with speedling support (that hits around 7:30min) or even the 32food 10 roach with speedling suport (that hits around 8-8:30min) totally shuts this build down even on large maps. Even if it is not an instant win, with a round of drones into lair and the amount of SCVs you kill, can you put you way ahead. That being said, the all-in can be easily held with: 1) multiple bunkers 2) maraduer from tech lab rax 3) sacraficing hellion production (and map control) for widow mine / siege tank production However with these adjustments you are blindly countering a build that may or may not come. | ||
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Juice!
Belgium295 Posts
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sixilli
51 Posts
On May 24 2013 17:38 Juice! wrote: Would this work vs a protoss (low master) This build focuses on fast upgrades and hellions making half of this build pointless. I would recommend looking at the other CC first build vs protoss that someone else posted. He wrote up an extensive guide on how to do it. I would suggest going there for that build is much better than this one vs toss. Here is a link to the thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=411141 | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 24 2013 17:38 Juice! wrote: Would this work vs a protoss (low master) No. | ||
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Acreno
Poland9 Posts
On May 24 2013 16:56 eMM wrote: I have to say, this is a great build for higher level players and games where both side tries to win the game through macro. Where this build puts the T on even footing with the Z and not fall behind in worker production and income. However, I personally think it is a bad idea for lower league players due to a few things: 1) As previously mentioned, terran possess many aggressive (and safe) openings that can put put pressure on the zerg from the get go. Being on the front foot, you are then knocking on Z's door, inviting them to make mistakes and win the game rather than the opposite. 2) Lower level zergs are much more prone to early pressure (and all ins). I have played Z up to low masters, and I have to say up to around high diamond, the 28 food 6-7 roach with speedling support (that hits around 7:30min) or even the 32food 10 roach with speedling suport (that hits around 8-8:30min) totally shuts this build down even on large maps. Even if it is not an instant win, with a round of drones into lair and the amount of SCVs you kill, can you put you way ahead. That being said, the all-in can be easily held with: 1) multiple bunkers 2) maraduer from tech lab rax 3) sacraficing hellion production (and map control) for widow mine / siege tank production However with these adjustments you are blindly countering a build that may or may not come. Its so true ... ;/ Im gold level terran and I discover some zerg patterns at my lvl. - like to open with 10-15 fast zerglings before making a lot of drones to poke my natural (no bunker near mineral line - gg) - dont care about 3 base eco - like to make different 2 base allins like roach/bane bust, bane bust, mass speedlings etc. - they just LOVE banelings ... they want to have 50 banes rather than few hive tech units Weakness: - dont care so much about upgrades so 2-2 pushes are realy strong - dont get hive to fast and like to rely on ling/bane/muta for long time - dont have great creep sread so its easy to poke with tanks/mines - often over reacting to 12/12 reaper making to many spines, to many zerglings etc. Its a big problem for low level terran to deal with this play style playing so many marines and no tanks. But Innovation showed us some nice variation of this build in last math vs Symbol at gsl semi finals when he open with gas first - rax - factory - 4 helions and switch factory with techlab to make 5-6 tanks to defend strong roach/bane push. It was realy good and I think it can work for well for low level games. | ||
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