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Intro
I'm a diamond level player just looking to share my notes with the world and to discuss this strategy. I didn't really feel like going the whole 9 yards and making a guide but I feel like this could prove to be useful to other players looking to broaden their horizons.
The Build
This build is a pretty typical CC first with a fast third but the follow up is what makes this build so solid. By delaying the starport you're able to get stim and +1/+1 very quickly. The high hellion count of this build forces the zerg to invest into defenses. I took this build from his match vs life in the GSL game 2. In game 1 he favored a lower hellion count to get faster add ons. That build is much more complicated to map out but it's roughly the same.
I have also tested this build out many times in game to assure that these are the right numbers.
10 Depot
14 CC
15 Barracks (only build 2 marines)
16 Refinery
18 OC x2
20 Bunker
21 Factory
22 Reactor on barracks
23 Depot
26 CC(3)
@100% Factory swap to reactor, barracks starts techlab (Start stim after 1 marauder)
34~ wall in natural (depots)
44 Refinery
7:30 double engineering bays, then add 2 rax with 2 reactors immediatly
8:00 double refinery
8:45 Starport (reactor immediatly)
9:00 add 2 more Barracks add reactors immediately
12:00 add Factory (tehclab immediatly, research drilling claws)
Notes
Ideal mid game composition:marine, medivac, widow mine.
Make about 10 hellions then switch to widow mine production.
At 34 supply he spams depots so he can micro his hellions more intensively. He does this throughout the game
Replay
Will try to add replays of me doing this build sometimes soonish.
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Nice time to scour this. I will take any innovaiton builds I can get my hands on. Looking forward to reading.
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On May 10 2013 08:44 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Nice time to scour this. I will take any innovaiton builds I can get my hands on. Looking forward to reading.
After seeing his recent success all I wanted to do was learn his builds but his replays are hard to come by.
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Is it ok to post restreamed videos of WCS KR (GSL)?
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No idea but I can take them down if needed!
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It's pretty obviously not okay if they're charging people to view the VODs?
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Realy good job !  Big thanks
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If InnovatioN goes to the finals this season i am going to travel to korea to see it live! Innovation is such a beast!
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United States8476 Posts
Please don't post re-streamed VODs. I've removed the links from your post.
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Sorry about that and thanks for not deleting my thread :D
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Is this the build Innovation used vs Life in the group of death?
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Anyone know how to adapt this build when zerg from my low level (gold/plat) trying to allin me from 2 base ?
I cant take my third when he send to my natural lots of ling + banes and I dont have enough stuff to don't lose to much :/
Then he is taking third and I'm way behind to win game. Should I need tank or sth else to hold it and safely expand ?
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On May 11 2013 06:21 Acreno wrote:
Anyone know how to adapt this build when zerg from my low level (gold/plat) trying to allin me from 2 base ?
I cant take my third when he send to my natural lots of ling + banes and I dont have enough stuff to don't lose to much :/
Then he is taking third and I'm way behing to win game. Should I need tank or sth else to hold it and safely expand ?
I'd say swapping around the factory and the barracks, once a tech lab has been made, to produce a single tank means you'll be completely safe. Maybe look at the VOD's of the code A series between DRG and Supernova, I think Supernova used that build, or at least something very similair to that, in game 2.
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On May 11 2013 06:19 captainwaffles wrote:
Is this the build Innovation used vs Life in the group of death?
Yes it is!
After re watching some games I can say they aren't the same but they're similar. To be fair CC first prioritizing fast upgrades can be fairly cookie cutter in terms of build order. I'm sure innovation got the idea from flash but either way I'm happy with this build order.
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Looks very interesting, thanks. Will it be ok to use against any race in lower leagues like till gold?
If you have any replays of it, please share.
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On May 11 2013 19:59 TheKleszcz wrote:Looks very interesting, thanks. Will it be ok to use against any race in lower leagues like till gold? If you have any replays of it, please share.
I would have to say no. Terran and Protoss have so man agressive openings that I don't think it will be a good idea. Plus 10 hellions against protoss are going to be useless unless you drop them.
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Isnt this THE standard build regarding hellions 3 CC into double upgrade mass rax build with mines/hellbat?
Although the same build applies if you go for 1 rax FE, 14 CC, or double reaper off a 11/11 timing then expand.
Yes, I am aware that the timing is a bit off depending from person to person and from BO to BO, but this is an opener into mid game transition, not a rush build or a timing attack build. TvZ is seriously just about early game hellions, 3rd CC, one marauder, mid game marine + reactor'd factory unit + medevac, and transition as needed
I applaud you for sharing the result of your research (most likely took you a couple hours) but I dont see why people should look very closely into the timings provided.
Depending on the current metagame you are dealing with, it might be slightly safer to go 1 rax FE or even 11 2x reaper expand that all transitions into the same thing. This is a TvZ build only. Its ok to attempt this in the lower leagues since its an extremely safe build if you react correctly, while giving you heavy early game pressure option with the 6-10 hellions + double widowmine.
Contrary to most TL guides, this build will NOT raise your winrate suddenly (see hellbat drop guide and the DT drop expand guide). It is pretty much the same as a detailed 1 rax FE guide on liquidpedia since its so commonly used these days.
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I don't understand the point in posting this. Every top terran is doing this build except for minor tweaks here and there, but nothing really notable.
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On May 12 2013 03:01 Thor.Rush wrote:
I don't understand the point in posting this. Every top terran is doing this build except for minor tweaks here and there, but nothing really notable.
Well the reason to post this is most people don't know how to do an effective CC first build that's this far optimized. I know the build really isn't anything special but for someone who doesn't want to spend a few hours to learn a build order can just copy this one.
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I've been doing this for a while but i'm having trouble holding various allins - would you recommend going for tanks instead of allins if you scout it?
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On May 12 2013 04:20 sixilli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 03:01 Thor.Rush wrote:
I don't understand the point in posting this. Every top terran is doing this build except for minor tweaks here and there, but nothing really notable. Well the reason to post this is most people don't know how to do an effective CC first build that's this far optimized. I know the build really isn't anything special but for someone who doesn't want to spend a few hours to learn a build order can just copy this one.
fair enough
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I appreciate this post, my tvz build is sorely outdated and I've been looking for something like this to replace it.
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I was doing a build very similar to this after I watched Flash play in his GSL RO32 matches, and I was able to move up from Bronze to Gold in just one day. Very solid build, made TvZ my favorite match up to play.
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On May 12 2013 03:01 Thor.Rush wrote:
I don't understand the point in posting this. Every top terran is doing this build except for minor tweaks here and there, but nothing really notable.
Yes but the point is that THE TOP SC2 player who happens to play terran. Who with 30% of his wins being offraced with zerg still is #1 GM(when I checked he was 3 points behind #1 but being as he had offraced so much I think it's fair to call him #1  in korea did this.
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Yeah I've been in love with this build. It has helped my TvZ a lot.
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Thank you for this. Appreciate all InNovation information I can get!
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I wonder how Innovation would respond to the Catz build, in which he drone scouts at 13, and if he sees CC first on the high ground he takes his third hatch in the Terran's nat and bad times ensue for the Terran.
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Popkiller on a two player map CC first should be dead everytime with a Catz drone scout, four player luck of the draw. But I would say still go for it to see. What is at the wall can be indicative of what that player is doing.
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On May 16 2013 10:50 Popkiller wrote:
I wonder how Innovation would respond to the Catz build, in which he drone scouts at 13, and if he sees CC first on the high ground he takes his third hatch in the Terran's nat and bad times ensue for the Terran.
If you mean proxy third hatch before pool, it's a horrible gimmick which achieves nothing. Someone did it to me yesterday, I simply cancelled my gas to build a second rax, bunk within range of the hatch and SCVs/Marines had no troubles holding his lings/queen/spines agression.
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Thanks for posting this, i've been looking for an alternate build to my reaper opener. This looks like it may fix many of my problems
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Really nice build, how do you react if you see that the zerg is going for a roach bust at ~7:00? Can you hold it with just 1 bunker with 2 marines and 1 maruader?
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On May 16 2013 18:52 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 10:50 Popkiller wrote:
I wonder how Innovation would respond to the Catz build, in which he drone scouts at 13, and if he sees CC first on the high ground he takes his third hatch in the Terran's nat and bad times ensue for the Terran. If you mean proxy third hatch before pool, it's a horrible gimmick which achieves nothing. Someone did it to me yesterday, I simply cancelled my gas to build a second rax, bunk within range of the hatch and SCVs/Marines had no troubles holding his lings/queen/spines agression.
is catz always doing the all in type with lings spines and queens? i think just stealing the opponents natural to delay it can be worth the 350 minerals for the hatch. tried it a lot vs reaper expand but it might be a lot better vs CC first.
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On May 14 2013 04:05 oZe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 03:01 Thor.Rush wrote:
I don't understand the point in posting this. Every top terran is doing this build except for minor tweaks here and there, but nothing really notable. Yes but the point is that THE TOP SC2 player who happens to play terran. Who with 30% of his wins being offraced with zerg still is #1 GM(when I checked he was 3 points behind #1 but being as he had offraced so much I think it's fair to call him #1 in korea did this.
he isnt offracing zerg. That's Hyvaa hes sharing his account with.
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On May 16 2013 21:10 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 18:52 TheDwf wrote:On May 16 2013 10:50 Popkiller wrote:
I wonder how Innovation would respond to the Catz build, in which he drone scouts at 13, and if he sees CC first on the high ground he takes his third hatch in the Terran's nat and bad times ensue for the Terran. If you mean proxy third hatch before pool, it's a horrible gimmick which achieves nothing. Someone did it to me yesterday, I simply cancelled my gas to build a second rax, bunk within range of the hatch and SCVs/Marines had no troubles holding his lings/queen/spines agression. is catz always doing the all in type with lings spines and queens? i think just stealing the opponents natural to delay it can be worth the 350 minerals for the hatch. tried it a lot vs reaper expand but it might be a lot better vs CC first.
You can't steal the natural. CC first expands at 2'16 - 2'22, you don't have 300 minerals at this time after hatch first to build your third hatch there.
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Sounds good, THX !
Could be great to add a replay or a VOD of Innovation doing this
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On May 17 2013 20:37 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 21:10 Decendos wrote:On May 16 2013 18:52 TheDwf wrote:On May 16 2013 10:50 Popkiller wrote:
I wonder how Innovation would respond to the Catz build, in which he drone scouts at 13, and if he sees CC first on the high ground he takes his third hatch in the Terran's nat and bad times ensue for the Terran. If you mean proxy third hatch before pool, it's a horrible gimmick which achieves nothing. Someone did it to me yesterday, I simply cancelled my gas to build a second rax, bunk within range of the hatch and SCVs/Marines had no troubles holding his lings/queen/spines agression. is catz always doing the all in type with lings spines and queens? i think just stealing the opponents natural to delay it can be worth the 350 minerals for the hatch. tried it a lot vs reaper expand but it might be a lot better vs CC first. You can't steal the natural. CC first expands at 2'16 - 2'22, you don't have 300 minerals at this time after hatch first to build your third hatch there.
catz's build is against CC first on the high ground specifically, because if you build it on the high ground and don't have vision of your natural, it's certainly very possible to have a hatch completing a bit after the CC finishes.
Against CC on the low ground it doesn't work though.
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On May 17 2013 21:55 TheMagicianSC2 wrote:Sounds good, THX ! Could be great to add a replay or a VOD of Innovation doing this
I did but it got removed because it's from the GSL. Lets just say if you want to see a VOD you can find it if you look. x]
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On May 11 2013 06:21 Acreno wrote:
Anyone know how to adapt this build when zerg from my low level (gold/plat) trying to allin me from 2 base ?
I cant take my third when he send to my natural lots of ling + banes and I dont have enough stuff to don't lose to much :/
Then he is taking third and I'm way behind to win game. Should I need tank or sth else to hold it and safely expand ?
Try going into Stim Marines instead of a 3rd CC:
TvZ Reaper Hellion into Stim Marines
See Gumiho vs Jaedong Neo Planet S - DH Stockholm 2013
1:40 - 12 Rax
1:51 - 12 Gas
2:51 - 15 OCC - depot 16 - Reaper x 2
3:57 - 19 Expand
4:25 - FACTORY + Reactor on RAX1
Kill drones with 2 reapers while fax builds and minerals build up to around 500
5:30 - Swap Fax and Rax
5:37 - Rax x 2 + OCC at Nat + 2 hellions
5:45 Tech lab on Rax1
6:21 2nd Gas + Stim
Poke front with Hellions and reapers
6:51 +3 on gas and Reactors on Rax 2 + 3
7:18 26 SCVs 6 Hellions 1 Marine Start building depots 2x2
7:49 - Starport
7:57 - EBay
8:00: Push 3rd
8:50 - after push, Swap Fax + Starport so Port is on Reactor - combat shield, 2 medivacs, +1atk
Stay in Base until Medivacs pop - build depots, take 3rd and 4th gas, start 3rd
10:00 - 11:00 - Drop and secure 3rd
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Still can't wait to see first and second game of InNovation vs Roro. Do anyone know if he did the same build all three games?
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On May 18 2013 01:24 llIH wrote:
Still can't wait to see first and second game of InNovation vs Roro. Do anyone know if he did the same build all three games?
Nope, he does different builds in all the games. The first game is a variation on the build in the OP (no marauder, make 6 hellions, then widow mines). The second game is proxy 2 rax, and the third hellbat drops.
Here's my notes on the build in the first game, in case someone finds them interesting:
+ Show Spoiler +
Build Order:
• 14 CC (low ground) @2:20
○ brief pause before 15 SCV
○ Orbital @3:45
• Barracks @2:40
○ brief pause before 16 SCV
• 16 Gas @2:50
• Bunker @3:50
○ use CC SCV?
• Factory, Reactor on Barracks @4:30
○ (after 2 marines)
• Depot @5:00
• 3rd CC @5:30
○ float out to 3rd base @8:00
• Swap Factory and Barracks
○ 6 hellions, then widow mines (get stim then cs)
• 2nd Gas @6:30
• 2 Ebays @7:10
• 2 Barracks and 2 Gas @8:00
○ Reactors when done
• Starport, 2 Barracks @8:30
○ Reactors when done
• Armory
○ get vehicle plating
• 5th + 6th gas @10:15
• 2nd Factory @11:45
○ Tech Lab when done (get drilling claws)
○ Make 1 seige tanks, then mines
• 3 more barracks, turrets ~12:30?
• 4th CC @13:00
○ Planetary
Actions / Scouting:
SCV scout: @3:05 (arrive @4:00)
Scout with 16th SCV
Check for gas, then go home
If gas:
Maybe 4 hellions + marauder, then tanks?
else 6 hellions, then widow mines?
Hellions:
Check for 3rd base and Evos at nat?
Keep hellions alive!
Stay active on map:
Clear watch towers
Clear 3rd base
Hunt zerglings off creep
Clear creep tumors, but don't go on creep
3rd base:
Build bunker at 3rd when moving it out.
Send 4 marines + 1 widow mine.
Scan: @10:30
Look for spire / lair???
Follow up scan if missed???
Army: Move out @11:30
Clear creep, but dont' commit to engagements
Leave a widow mine burrowed at edge of creep when pulling back
Try to fight zerg units off creep if possible (defend + try to trap zerg army).
Take ground with tank + mines, rally out to army.
I haven't really got round to trying it on ladder yet though. Note that there's probably some fairly crucial reactions to scouting gas / no third base from the zerg (make tanks? delay 3rd CC?) not covered in this.
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I played today about 6 games vs zerg and ... everyone maked some roach allin from 2 bases :/ Its look like new way to beat terrans. If push hit later (~10:00 min) its prety easy to defend. Just 3 bunkers, lot of mines and mass repair. The problem is when this push is earlier .. quite hard to defend with 1 bunker, 2 mines or tank playing this build or I dont know how ?
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On May 18 2013 03:06 Acreno wrote:
I played today about 6 games vs zerg and ... everyone maked some roach allin from 2 bases :/ Its look like new way to beat terrans. If push hit later (~10:00 min) its prety easy to defend. Just 3 bunkers, lot of mines and mass repair. The problem is when this push is earlier .. quite hard to defend with 1 bunker, 2 mines or tank playing this build or I dont know how ?
The 2nd and 3rd barrack timing is very important. Might be worth it to drop down the two barrack before engin and add 2 additional bunkers. In fact, the strict timing of the 2 barracks is the only paper thin defence that allows this build to be safe.
Innovation has been doing alooooot of variations of this build. In fact, this build does not deviate from the 2x reaper into 6 hellion, 2 mine with 2 reactor swap build that he used very often before. It all depends on what your goal is.
The beauty of this build does not lie within the supply numbers and building timings. Its purpose is to give Terrans a large amount of options while keeping an economical edge. Theoretically, everything can be held if you react fast enough and scout it beforehand. However, since ladder zergs don't want to vs 3 CC, they usually just roach bust you because they don't want to go into a macro game against this build. In this case, you need to keep making marauders and keep up the mine production.
Also note that in case the zerg decides to make a lot of lings and banelings for a bust, especially early on (8 minutes), making more than 6 hellions is better than relying on mines to do money shots.
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On May 18 2013 03:35 WindCalibur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 03:06 Acreno wrote:
I played today about 6 games vs zerg and ... everyone maked some roach allin from 2 bases :/ Its look like new way to beat terrans. If push hit later (~10:00 min) its prety easy to defend. Just 3 bunkers, lot of mines and mass repair. The problem is when this push is earlier .. quite hard to defend with 1 bunker, 2 mines or tank playing this build or I dont know how ? The 2nd and 3rd barrack timing is very important. Might be worth it to drop down the two barrack before engin and add 2 additional bunkers. In fact, the strict timing of the 2 barracks is the only paper thin defence that allows this build to be safe. Innovation has been doing alooooot of variations of this build. In fact, this build does not deviate from the 2x reaper into 6 hellion, 2 mine with 2 reactor swap build that he used very often before. It all depends on what your goal is. The beauty of this build does not lie within the supply numbers and building timings. Its purpose is to give Terrans a large amount of options while keeping an economical edge. Theoretically, everything can be held if you react fast enough and scout it beforehand. However, since ladder zergs don't want to vs 3 CC, they usually just roach bust you because they don't want to go into a macro game against this build. In this case, you need to keep making marauders and keep up the mine production. Also note that in case the zerg decides to make a lot of lings and banelings for a bust, especially early on (8 minutes), making more than 6 hellions is better than relying on mines to do money shots.
Thanks ! Your advices help me a lot One more question .. if I scout roach warren how should looks my addons on 5 rax ? I feel 4 reactors and 1 techlab is prety bad if he is going for many roaches.
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Is there any source we can go to to find replays of this build?
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ForGG does this build a lot on his stream I think, so you can see if he has VODs. Honestly most pro terrans are doing it so watch some streams or VODs.
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An excellent idea to post this guide... 1 more opening in my arsenal...
thanks for this...
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can you go off mech with this?
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ive thoroughly studied innovation's playstyle hots in all 3 matchups. some adjustments to your build would be.
- Build cc on high ground (incredibly safe vs 10 pool or early lings.
- the scv that finishes the rax builds a bunker on the low ground.
- make 6 hellions, no more no less. followed by widow mines (build starport for reactor if u scout early roaches because medis are more vital vs roach play.
- u stop on 3 bases and have 7/8 barracks + 2 fact + 1 starport and u just keep producting marine, mine, medivacs (marauders too depending on zerg composition) the goal is to get this setup and full three base saturation (60-70 scvs)
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I like any contribution for the site but i would like to see a day when Terran will have any content on TL which is not a CC first . I don't like CC first builds and it don't work for me at all, so many players already know this type of builds and do 2 base allins all the time, every time i try it on ladder (diamond) i lose sooo many games even with a good scout. I don't advice this build if u r not a very high on the ladder. CC first in general is a pretty old build that always back ...
I already open 1 rax / CC into 3 CC with double upgrades, god damn fuck it's not greed enough ?! I don't think more greedy play is what Terran needs right now on Hots, plz don't bash me it's just my opinion.
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just what i needed! thanks a lot!
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On May 22 2013 16:33 Moosy wrote:
ive thoroughly studied innovation's playstyle hots in all 3 matchups. some adjustments to your build would be.
- Build cc on high ground (incredibly safe vs 10 pool or early lings.
- the scv that finishes the rax builds a bunker on the low ground.
- make 6 hellions, no more no less. followed by widow mines (build starport for reactor if u scout early roaches because medis are more vital vs roach play.
- u stop on 3 bases and have 7/8 barracks + 2 fact + 1 starport and u just keep producting marine, mine, medivacs (marauders too depending on zerg composition) the goal is to get this setup and full three base saturation (60-70 scvs)
Bogus plays 4M with 70-75 SCVs.
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On May 22 2013 22:45 megid wrote:I like any contribution for the site but i would like to see a day when Terran will have any content on TL which is not a CC first . I don't like CC first builds and it don't work for me at all, so many players already know this type of builds and do 2 base allins all the time, every time i try it on ladder (diamond) i lose sooo many games even with a good scout. I don't advice this build if u r not a very high on the ladder. CC first in general is a pretty old build that always back ... I already open 1 rax / CC into 3 CC with double upgrades, god damn fuck it's not greed enough ?! I don't think more greedy play is what Terran needs right now on Hots, plz don't bash me it's just my opinion.
Your opinion is more than fair and I can back up what you're saying. Holding early aggression with this build is a living hell. If you hold you win, if you don't you lose. I still love this build but roach rushes are getting really annoying.
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Excellent! Thanks for this! I'm just getting into terran and have been looking for the standard korean Terran TvZ build for a while now!
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I have to say, this is a great build for higher level players and games where both side tries to win the game through macro. Where this build puts the T on even footing with the Z and not fall behind in worker production and income.
However, I personally think it is a bad idea for lower league players due to a few things:
1) As previously mentioned, terran possess many aggressive (and safe) openings that can put put pressure on the zerg from the get go. Being on the front foot, you are then knocking on Z's door, inviting them to make mistakes and win the game rather than the opposite.
2) Lower level zergs are much more prone to early pressure (and all ins). I have played Z up to low masters, and I have to say up to around high diamond, the 28 food 6-7 roach with speedling support (that hits around 7:30min) or even the 32food 10 roach with speedling suport (that hits around 8-8:30min) totally shuts this build down even on large maps.
Even if it is not an instant win, with a round of drones into lair and the amount of SCVs you kill, can you put you way ahead.
That being said, the all-in can be easily held with:
1) multiple bunkers
2) maraduer from tech lab rax
3) sacraficing hellion production (and map control) for widow mine / siege tank production
However with these adjustments you are blindly countering a build that may or may not come.
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Would this work vs a protoss (low master)
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On May 24 2013 17:38 Juice! wrote:
Would this work vs a protoss (low master)
This build focuses on fast upgrades and hellions making half of this build pointless. I would recommend looking at the other CC first build vs protoss that someone else posted. He wrote up an extensive guide on how to do it. I would suggest going there for that build is much better than this one vs toss. Here is a link to the thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=411141
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On May 24 2013 17:38 Juice! wrote:
Would this work vs a protoss (low master)
No.
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On May 24 2013 16:56 eMM wrote:
I have to say, this is a great build for higher level players and games where both side tries to win the game through macro. Where this build puts the T on even footing with the Z and not fall behind in worker production and income.
However, I personally think it is a bad idea for lower league players due to a few things:
1) As previously mentioned, terran possess many aggressive (and safe) openings that can put put pressure on the zerg from the get go. Being on the front foot, you are then knocking on Z's door, inviting them to make mistakes and win the game rather than the opposite.
2) Lower level zergs are much more prone to early pressure (and all ins). I have played Z up to low masters, and I have to say up to around high diamond, the 28 food 6-7 roach with speedling support (that hits around 7:30min) or even the 32food 10 roach with speedling suport (that hits around 8-8:30min) totally shuts this build down even on large maps.
Even if it is not an instant win, with a round of drones into lair and the amount of SCVs you kill, can you put you way ahead.
That being said, the all-in can be easily held with:
1) multiple bunkers
2) maraduer from tech lab rax
3) sacraficing hellion production (and map control) for widow mine / siege tank production
However with these adjustments you are blindly countering a build that may or may not come.
Its so true ... ;/
Im gold level terran and I discover some zerg patterns at my lvl.
- like to open with 10-15 fast zerglings before making a lot of drones to poke my natural (no bunker near mineral line - gg)
- dont care about 3 base eco
- like to make different 2 base allins like roach/bane bust, bane bust, mass speedlings etc.
- they just LOVE banelings ... they want to have 50 banes rather than few hive tech units
Weakness:
- dont care so much about upgrades so 2-2 pushes are realy strong
- dont get hive to fast and like to rely on ling/bane/muta for long time
- dont have great creep sread so its easy to poke with tanks/mines
- often over reacting to 12/12 reaper making to many spines, to many zerglings etc.
Its a big problem for low level terran to deal with this play style playing so many marines and no tanks. But Innovation showed us some nice variation of this build in last math vs Symbol at gsl semi finals when he open with gas first - rax - factory - 4 helions and switch factory with techlab to make 5-6 tanks to defend strong roach/bane push. It was realy good and I think it can work for well for low level games.
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Just wanted to ask people who are more experienced with this build and TvZ in general.
When do you push out and pressure?
Do hellion harass into medvac drops then pass with the big 2/2 marine mine at 13min?
Or do you just hellion harass into 2/2 push?
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This is the version of the build I learned just a few days ago, it's slightly slower (read: it's incorrect) than the one posted here. The one posted here actually gets everything as soon as you have the resources, but the posted version might be more optimal with regards to add-ons.. (It uses the fac to make reactors, so every time you finish two rax, one of them gets a reactor)
I think with THIS version of the build, since there's no add-on swapping, you could theoretically either constantly make hellions to keep harassing until your 2/2 push is ready. Not sure how many mines you want with your 2/2 push, but you'd need to stop the hellion harass/production early enough to get a few mines to be able to push successfully.
Anyway, I was gold just a two days ago, and got into plat today (probably with the help of this build). The main problem for me is getting the **micro** right. I almost ALWAYS lose the first army to a bunch of banes. The only reason I can win those games is because the zerg starts to relax and miss macro cycles. -_-
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I almost always win with this build if I am able to establish 3 bases fully and prepare for Ultras. Just keep denying his 4th over and over. The problem is I got all ined a lot lol.
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On May 12 2013 02:57 padfoota wrote:
Isnt this THE standard build regarding hellions 3 CC into double upgrade mass rax build with mines/hellbat?
Although the same build applies if you go for 1 rax FE, 14 CC, or double reaper off a 11/11 timing then expand.
Yes, I am aware that the timing is a bit off depending from person to person and from BO to BO, but this is an opener into mid game transition, not a rush build or a timing attack build. TvZ is seriously just about early game hellions, 3rd CC, one marauder, mid game marine + reactor'd factory unit + medevac, and transition as needed
I applaud you for sharing the result of your research (most likely took you a couple hours) but I dont see why people should look very closely into the timings provided.
Depending on the current metagame you are dealing with, it might be slightly safer to go 1 rax FE or even 11 2x reaper expand that all transitions into the same thing. This is a TvZ build only. Its ok to attempt this in the lower leagues since its an extremely safe build if you react correctly, while giving you heavy early game pressure option with the 6-10 hellions + double widowmine.
Contrary to most TL guides, this build will NOT raise your winrate suddenly (see hellbat drop guide and the DT drop expand guide). It is pretty much the same as a detailed 1 rax FE guide on liquidpedia since its so commonly used these days.
The timings in this guide are fairly good for learning a build to take you all the way to GM.
What is missing is the little things, what to do with units and scouting etc.
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On June 01 2013 13:58 vaderseven wrote:
The timings in this guide are fairly good for learning a build to take you all the way to GM.
What is missing is the little things, what to do with units and scouting etc.
Yeah there is a big reason I opened the thread with a [D] and not a [G] x]
I feel like if you're good enough to execute this build you should do fairly well with the units at your disposal. I personally have stopped using this build due to the amount of roach rushes >.<
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I have one question here. I'm a mid-diamond but when I face to a master, especially top master, how can I defend proxy Hatch? I alaways mess up with this build when the opponent play that cheese.
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On June 01 2013 14:31 sixilli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 13:58 vaderseven wrote:
The timings in this guide are fairly good for learning a build to take you all the way to GM.
What is missing is the little things, what to do with units and scouting etc. Yeah there is a big reason I opened the thread with a [D] and not a [G] x] I feel like if you're good enough to execute this build you should do fairly well with the units at your disposal. I personally have stopped using this build due to the amount of roach rushes >.<
First of all innovation doesn't build 10 hellions, he makes 6 and as soon sa you scout some roachwaren, just keep on making widow mines and don't use the the factory to make more reactor for third rax and starport. Delays your timings but your save.
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On June 01 2013 13:30 doktorLucifer wrote:This is the version of the build I learned just a few days ago, it's slightly slower (read: it's incorrect) than the one posted here. The one posted here actually gets everything as soon as you have the resources, but the posted version might be more optimal with regards to add-ons.. (It uses the fac to make reactors, so every time you finish two rax, one of them gets a reactor) I think with THIS version of the build, since there's no add-on swapping, you could theoretically either constantly make hellions to keep harassing until your 2/2 push is ready. Not sure how many mines you want with your 2/2 push, but you'd need to stop the hellion harass/production early enough to get a few mines to be able to push successfully. Anyway, I was gold just a two days ago, and got into plat today (probably with the help of this build). The main problem for me is getting the **micro** right. I almost ALWAYS lose the first army to a bunch of banes. The only reason I can win those games is because the zerg starts to relax and miss macro cycles. -_-
I think one of the strengths of his build is that the first push actually isn't very important damagewise. But it forces the zerg into baneling tech, which you want, as you will just be very costefficient if you just keep on pushing over and over again with marine/mine, while he is slowed down.
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The most important thing about this BO is execution. Miss one harass or timing then you are better off gging
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From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming.
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On June 03 2013 00:38 sixilli wrote:
From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming.
He built 10 Hellions because he was playing Life, i. e. someone who never builds a Roach Warren unless he's forced.
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On June 03 2013 01:39 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 00:38 sixilli wrote:
From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming. He built 10 Hellions because he was playing Life, i. e. someone who never builds a Roach Warren unless he's forced.
Didn't he roach allin twice vs Last in his Ro32 games?
But anyways, I also think that Innovation made the 10hellions to counter Life's zergling overproduction which counters the usual 4-6 hellions.
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On June 03 2013 02:00 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 01:39 TheDwf wrote:On June 03 2013 00:38 sixilli wrote:
From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming. He built 10 Hellions because he was playing Life, i. e. someone who never builds a Roach Warren unless he's forced. Didn't he roach allin twice vs Last in his Ro32 games? But anyways, I also think that Innovation made the 10hellions to counter Life's zergling overproduction which counters the usual 4-6 hellions.
No, he reactively went Roaches on the Daybreak game upon finding a suspicious reactor rax (i. e. indicative of a hidden Starport for Hellbat drops) with his over sac. This counts as a case of being forced into Roaches since obviously Zerglings alone won't handle dual Hellbat drops. The Bel'shir Vestige game was a 3-bases Baneling bust.
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EPT
