• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 01:34
CET 07:34
KST 15:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book15Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14
Community News
ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0220LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16)26Weekly Cups (Feb 2-8): Classic, Solar, MaxPax win2Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker10PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar)14
StarCraft 2
General
How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker Terran Scanner Sweep Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16) RSL Season 4 announced for March-April RSL Revival: Season 4 Korea Qualifier (Feb 14) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ? [A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 512 Overclocked Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth Mutation # 510 Safety Violation
Brood War
General
Which units you wish saw more use in the game? ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/02 StarCraft player reflex TE scores [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates Gypsy to Korea
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo 2 thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Ask and answer stupid questions here! European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
ADHD And Gaming Addiction…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1990 users

[D] Innovation's TvZ (CC first) - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 All
eMM
Profile Joined July 2010
Australia34 Posts
June 01 2013 04:17 GMT
#61
Just wanted to ask people who are more experienced with this build and TvZ in general.

When do you push out and pressure?

Do hellion harass into medvac drops then pass with the big 2/2 marine mine at 13min?

Or do you just hellion harass into 2/2 push?
doktorLucifer
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States855 Posts
June 01 2013 04:30 GMT
#62
This is the version of the build I learned just a few days ago, it's slightly slower (read: it's incorrect) than the one posted here. The one posted here actually gets everything as soon as you have the resources, but the posted version might be more optimal with regards to add-ons.. (It uses the fac to make reactors, so every time you finish two rax, one of them gets a reactor)

I think with THIS version of the build, since there's no add-on swapping, you could theoretically either constantly make hellions to keep harassing until your 2/2 push is ready. Not sure how many mines you want with your 2/2 push, but you'd need to stop the hellion harass/production early enough to get a few mines to be able to push successfully.

Anyway, I was gold just a two days ago, and got into plat today (probably with the help of this build). The main problem for me is getting the **micro** right. I almost ALWAYS lose the first army to a bunch of banes. The only reason I can win those games is because the zerg starts to relax and miss macro cycles. -_-
Wildmoon
Profile Joined December 2011
Thailand4189 Posts
June 01 2013 04:47 GMT
#63
I almost always win with this build if I am able to establish 3 bases fully and prepare for Ultras. Just keep denying his 4th over and over. The problem is I got all ined a lot lol.
vaderseven
Profile Joined September 2008
United States2556 Posts
June 01 2013 04:58 GMT
#64
On May 12 2013 02:57 padfoota wrote:
Isnt this THE standard build regarding hellions 3 CC into double upgrade mass rax build with mines/hellbat?
Although the same build applies if you go for 1 rax FE, 14 CC, or double reaper off a 11/11 timing then expand.


Yes, I am aware that the timing is a bit off depending from person to person and from BO to BO, but this is an opener into mid game transition, not a rush build or a timing attack build. TvZ is seriously just about early game hellions, 3rd CC, one marauder, mid game marine + reactor'd factory unit + medevac, and transition as needed

I applaud you for sharing the result of your research (most likely took you a couple hours) but I dont see why people should look very closely into the timings provided.


Depending on the current metagame you are dealing with, it might be slightly safer to go 1 rax FE or even 11 2x reaper expand that all transitions into the same thing. This is a TvZ build only. Its ok to attempt this in the lower leagues since its an extremely safe build if you react correctly, while giving you heavy early game pressure option with the 6-10 hellions + double widowmine.

Contrary to most TL guides, this build will NOT raise your winrate suddenly (see hellbat drop guide and the DT drop expand guide). It is pretty much the same as a detailed 1 rax FE guide on liquidpedia since its so commonly used these days.


The timings in this guide are fairly good for learning a build to take you all the way to GM.

What is missing is the little things, what to do with units and scouting etc.
sixilli
Profile Joined April 2013
51 Posts
June 01 2013 05:31 GMT
#65
On June 01 2013 13:58 vaderseven wrote:
The timings in this guide are fairly good for learning a build to take you all the way to GM.

What is missing is the little things, what to do with units and scouting etc.


Yeah there is a big reason I opened the thread with a [D] and not a [G] x]

I feel like if you're good enough to execute this build you should do fairly well with the units at your disposal. I personally have stopped using this build due to the amount of roach rushes >.<
padawan1997
Profile Joined January 2013
Vietnam7 Posts
June 02 2013 11:55 GMT
#66
I have one question here. I'm a mid-diamond but when I face to a master, especially top master, how can I defend proxy Hatch? I alaways mess up with this build when the opponent play that cheese.
WeRRa
Profile Joined December 2010
378 Posts
June 02 2013 12:40 GMT
#67
On June 01 2013 14:31 sixilli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2013 13:58 vaderseven wrote:
The timings in this guide are fairly good for learning a build to take you all the way to GM.

What is missing is the little things, what to do with units and scouting etc.


Yeah there is a big reason I opened the thread with a [D] and not a [G] x]

I feel like if you're good enough to execute this build you should do fairly well with the units at your disposal. I personally have stopped using this build due to the amount of roach rushes >.<

First of all innovation doesn't build 10 hellions, he makes 6 and as soon sa you scout some roachwaren, just keep on making widow mines and don't use the the factory to make more reactor for third rax and starport. Delays your timings but your save.
InnoVation Fighting!!!
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
June 02 2013 12:52 GMT
#68
On June 01 2013 13:30 doktorLucifer wrote:
This is the version of the build I learned just a few days ago, it's slightly slower (read: it's incorrect) than the one posted here. The one posted here actually gets everything as soon as you have the resources, but the posted version might be more optimal with regards to add-ons.. (It uses the fac to make reactors, so every time you finish two rax, one of them gets a reactor)

I think with THIS version of the build, since there's no add-on swapping, you could theoretically either constantly make hellions to keep harassing until your 2/2 push is ready. Not sure how many mines you want with your 2/2 push, but you'd need to stop the hellion harass/production early enough to get a few mines to be able to push successfully.

Anyway, I was gold just a two days ago, and got into plat today (probably with the help of this build). The main problem for me is getting the **micro** right. I almost ALWAYS lose the first army to a bunch of banes. The only reason I can win those games is because the zerg starts to relax and miss macro cycles. -_-


I think one of the strengths of his build is that the first push actually isn't very important damagewise. But it forces the zerg into baneling tech, which you want, as you will just be very costefficient if you just keep on pushing over and over again with marine/mine, while he is slowed down.
aNGryaRchon
Profile Joined August 2012
United States438 Posts
June 02 2013 12:54 GMT
#69
The most important thing about this BO is execution. Miss one harass or timing then you are better off gging
Power overwhelming!!!
sixilli
Profile Joined April 2013
51 Posts
June 02 2013 15:38 GMT
#70
From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
June 02 2013 16:39 GMT
#71
On June 03 2013 00:38 sixilli wrote:
From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming.

He built 10 Hellions because he was playing Life, i. e. someone who never builds a Roach Warren unless he's forced.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
June 02 2013 17:00 GMT
#72
On June 03 2013 01:39 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 03 2013 00:38 sixilli wrote:
From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming.

He built 10 Hellions because he was playing Life, i. e. someone who never builds a Roach Warren unless he's forced.


Didn't he roach allin twice vs Last in his Ro32 games?
But anyways, I also think that Innovation made the 10hellions to counter Life's zergling overproduction which counters the usual 4-6 hellions.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
June 02 2013 17:07 GMT
#73
On June 03 2013 02:00 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 03 2013 01:39 TheDwf wrote:
On June 03 2013 00:38 sixilli wrote:
From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming.

He built 10 Hellions because he was playing Life, i. e. someone who never builds a Roach Warren unless he's forced.


Didn't he roach allin twice vs Last in his Ro32 games?
But anyways, I also think that Innovation made the 10hellions to counter Life's zergling overproduction which counters the usual 4-6 hellions.

No, he reactively went Roaches on the Daybreak game upon finding a suspicious reactor rax (i. e. indicative of a hidden Starport for Hellbat drops) with his over sac. This counts as a case of being forced into Roaches since obviously Zerglings alone won't handle dual Hellbat drops. The Bel'shir Vestige game was a 3-bases Baneling bust.
Prev 1 2 3 4 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
HomeStory Cup 28 - Group C
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft706
Nina 115
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 4226
Horang2 1514
Leta 121
JulyZerg 81
910 47
Noble 34
ZergMaN 30
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm174
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 853
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King301
Other Games
summit1g17005
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1116
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH60
• Sammyuel 17
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1615
• Stunt576
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3h 26m
LiuLi Cup
4h 26m
Maru vs Reynor
Serral vs Rogue
Ladder Legends
11h 26m
Replay Cast
17h 26m
Replay Cast
1d 2h
Wardi Open
1d 5h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 10h
OSC
1d 17h
WardiTV Winter Champion…
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Winter Champion…
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
PiG Sty Festival
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
Epic.LAN
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
PiG Sty Festival
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Epic.LAN
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-02-14
Rongyi Cup S3
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: King of Kings
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round Qualifier
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round Qualifier
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
WardiTV Winter 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.