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[D] Innovation's TvZ (CC first) - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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eMM
Profile Joined July 2010
Australia34 Posts
June 01 2013 04:17 GMT
#61
Just wanted to ask people who are more experienced with this build and TvZ in general.

When do you push out and pressure?

Do hellion harass into medvac drops then pass with the big 2/2 marine mine at 13min?

Or do you just hellion harass into 2/2 push?
doktorLucifer
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States855 Posts
June 01 2013 04:30 GMT
#62
This is the version of the build I learned just a few days ago, it's slightly slower (read: it's incorrect) than the one posted here. The one posted here actually gets everything as soon as you have the resources, but the posted version might be more optimal with regards to add-ons.. (It uses the fac to make reactors, so every time you finish two rax, one of them gets a reactor)

I think with THIS version of the build, since there's no add-on swapping, you could theoretically either constantly make hellions to keep harassing until your 2/2 push is ready. Not sure how many mines you want with your 2/2 push, but you'd need to stop the hellion harass/production early enough to get a few mines to be able to push successfully.

Anyway, I was gold just a two days ago, and got into plat today (probably with the help of this build). The main problem for me is getting the **micro** right. I almost ALWAYS lose the first army to a bunch of banes. The only reason I can win those games is because the zerg starts to relax and miss macro cycles. -_-
Wildmoon
Profile Joined December 2011
Thailand4189 Posts
June 01 2013 04:47 GMT
#63
I almost always win with this build if I am able to establish 3 bases fully and prepare for Ultras. Just keep denying his 4th over and over. The problem is I got all ined a lot lol.
vaderseven
Profile Joined September 2008
United States2556 Posts
June 01 2013 04:58 GMT
#64
On May 12 2013 02:57 padfoota wrote:
Isnt this THE standard build regarding hellions 3 CC into double upgrade mass rax build with mines/hellbat?
Although the same build applies if you go for 1 rax FE, 14 CC, or double reaper off a 11/11 timing then expand.


Yes, I am aware that the timing is a bit off depending from person to person and from BO to BO, but this is an opener into mid game transition, not a rush build or a timing attack build. TvZ is seriously just about early game hellions, 3rd CC, one marauder, mid game marine + reactor'd factory unit + medevac, and transition as needed

I applaud you for sharing the result of your research (most likely took you a couple hours) but I dont see why people should look very closely into the timings provided.


Depending on the current metagame you are dealing with, it might be slightly safer to go 1 rax FE or even 11 2x reaper expand that all transitions into the same thing. This is a TvZ build only. Its ok to attempt this in the lower leagues since its an extremely safe build if you react correctly, while giving you heavy early game pressure option with the 6-10 hellions + double widowmine.

Contrary to most TL guides, this build will NOT raise your winrate suddenly (see hellbat drop guide and the DT drop expand guide). It is pretty much the same as a detailed 1 rax FE guide on liquidpedia since its so commonly used these days.


The timings in this guide are fairly good for learning a build to take you all the way to GM.

What is missing is the little things, what to do with units and scouting etc.
sixilli
Profile Joined April 2013
51 Posts
June 01 2013 05:31 GMT
#65
On June 01 2013 13:58 vaderseven wrote:
The timings in this guide are fairly good for learning a build to take you all the way to GM.

What is missing is the little things, what to do with units and scouting etc.


Yeah there is a big reason I opened the thread with a [D] and not a [G] x]

I feel like if you're good enough to execute this build you should do fairly well with the units at your disposal. I personally have stopped using this build due to the amount of roach rushes >.<
padawan1997
Profile Joined January 2013
Vietnam7 Posts
June 02 2013 11:55 GMT
#66
I have one question here. I'm a mid-diamond but when I face to a master, especially top master, how can I defend proxy Hatch? I alaways mess up with this build when the opponent play that cheese.
WeRRa
Profile Joined December 2010
378 Posts
June 02 2013 12:40 GMT
#67
On June 01 2013 14:31 sixilli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2013 13:58 vaderseven wrote:
The timings in this guide are fairly good for learning a build to take you all the way to GM.

What is missing is the little things, what to do with units and scouting etc.


Yeah there is a big reason I opened the thread with a [D] and not a [G] x]

I feel like if you're good enough to execute this build you should do fairly well with the units at your disposal. I personally have stopped using this build due to the amount of roach rushes >.<

First of all innovation doesn't build 10 hellions, he makes 6 and as soon sa you scout some roachwaren, just keep on making widow mines and don't use the the factory to make more reactor for third rax and starport. Delays your timings but your save.
InnoVation Fighting!!!
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
June 02 2013 12:52 GMT
#68
On June 01 2013 13:30 doktorLucifer wrote:
This is the version of the build I learned just a few days ago, it's slightly slower (read: it's incorrect) than the one posted here. The one posted here actually gets everything as soon as you have the resources, but the posted version might be more optimal with regards to add-ons.. (It uses the fac to make reactors, so every time you finish two rax, one of them gets a reactor)

I think with THIS version of the build, since there's no add-on swapping, you could theoretically either constantly make hellions to keep harassing until your 2/2 push is ready. Not sure how many mines you want with your 2/2 push, but you'd need to stop the hellion harass/production early enough to get a few mines to be able to push successfully.

Anyway, I was gold just a two days ago, and got into plat today (probably with the help of this build). The main problem for me is getting the **micro** right. I almost ALWAYS lose the first army to a bunch of banes. The only reason I can win those games is because the zerg starts to relax and miss macro cycles. -_-


I think one of the strengths of his build is that the first push actually isn't very important damagewise. But it forces the zerg into baneling tech, which you want, as you will just be very costefficient if you just keep on pushing over and over again with marine/mine, while he is slowed down.
aNGryaRchon
Profile Joined August 2012
United States438 Posts
June 02 2013 12:54 GMT
#69
The most important thing about this BO is execution. Miss one harass or timing then you are better off gging
Power overwhelming!!!
sixilli
Profile Joined April 2013
51 Posts
June 02 2013 15:38 GMT
#70
From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
June 02 2013 16:39 GMT
#71
On June 03 2013 00:38 sixilli wrote:
From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming.

He built 10 Hellions because he was playing Life, i. e. someone who never builds a Roach Warren unless he's forced.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
June 02 2013 17:00 GMT
#72
On June 03 2013 01:39 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 03 2013 00:38 sixilli wrote:
From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming.

He built 10 Hellions because he was playing Life, i. e. someone who never builds a Roach Warren unless he's forced.


Didn't he roach allin twice vs Last in his Ro32 games?
But anyways, I also think that Innovation made the 10hellions to counter Life's zergling overproduction which counters the usual 4-6 hellions.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
June 02 2013 17:07 GMT
#73
On June 03 2013 02:00 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 03 2013 01:39 TheDwf wrote:
On June 03 2013 00:38 sixilli wrote:
From the game I took this from he did indeed build 10 helions. To be honest I would not recommend building 10 hellions if you feel a roach rush coming.

He built 10 Hellions because he was playing Life, i. e. someone who never builds a Roach Warren unless he's forced.


Didn't he roach allin twice vs Last in his Ro32 games?
But anyways, I also think that Innovation made the 10hellions to counter Life's zergling overproduction which counters the usual 4-6 hellions.

No, he reactively went Roaches on the Daybreak game upon finding a suspicious reactor rax (i. e. indicative of a hidden Starport for Hellbat drops) with his over sac. This counts as a case of being forced into Roaches since obviously Zerglings alone won't handle dual Hellbat drops. The Bel'shir Vestige game was a 3-bases Baneling bust.
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