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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On July 26 2013 10:24 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 09:25 Clarity_nl wrote:
Teoita do you feel that going templar first gives the T too much map control to simply get a really fast 4th? Seeing as you can't really be agressive until like (I'm guessing) 13-14 minutes ingame. How can you not be able to be aggressive earlier if you can have a very early warp prism to counter drop terrans and you can dump minerals on zealots since all you need for HT is gas?
Warp prism does nothing against a Terran that chooses to get a fast 4th upon scouting HT; it's meant as a deflection against a Terran that is threatening more pressure than they should(usually because they didn't get a good scout). Two base HT aggression is not nearly as good as robo based pressure from Protoss, so Terran can get away by being greedier (see Innovation x Rain, neo planet s, game 7 of match 2 of PL quarter finals, SKTT1 x STX Soul).
Also, from the Terran Help Me Thread:
Q. How to play against Templars?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +Ver wrote:Templar in general are more defensive, stop drops [more] easily, and make it hard to press into their base even with a supply advantage. The downside is templar have no offensive potential for a long time and the templar player gets slaughtered if he tries to push out across the middle because then he can't land a storm and gets kited all day. See Marineking vs Parting from the KSL Finals on Daybreak for an example of this, or Taeja vs MC on Entombed from Asus. Versus Templar players you definitely want to add a 4th cc very quickly and focus on all your tech upgrades because they can't threaten much. In general you want to add a ghost academy as soon as you get a whiff of templar, because if they have templar and you have no ghosts you can't really threaten/attack much. TheDwf wrote:The Dream vs PartinG series at IEM Katowice is a nice illustration of the above point about Templar play, see the Daybreak and the Entombed Valley games.
I'd add to Teoita's list that letting Terran getting a big medivac count earlier is another con of the HT style. That along with upgrades are the main concerns for me.
Still. it's obviously a very good style.
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I don't have enough experience with templar openings to talk about their ins and outs. I know you can't deal with kiting the same way a ranged colossus does. But you can use a warp prism to warp in zealots for harassment and storm drop your opponent. Even if you can't straight up kill a guy who got a fast 4th cc, that still counts as aggression. I didn't say you could reactively all-in a terran upon scouting a early 4th cc.
Althoguh I remember Parting beat Flash on Star Station once with a straight up chargelot archon push at about 11 or 12 minutes. He went double forge ridiculously fast and did a 2-2 timing push. But this is obviously not the same as a regular templar build.
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On July 26 2013 09:00 Teoita wrote:
What matchup?
Thinking of trying out protoss. I normally do 1raxFE into bio drop play. I've incorporated spreading widow mines manually (instead of dropping them) but I'm starting to find protoss play look sexy.
So im trying to figure out what build to help me transition to toss play.
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Italy12246 Posts
On July 26 2013 09:25 Clarity_nl wrote:
Teoita do you feel that going templar first gives the T too much map control to simply get a really fast 4th? Seeing as you can't really be agressive until like (I'm guessing) 13-14 minutes ingame.
Define "fast fourth", but in general, hell no. It's not that you -can't- be aggressive, it's just harder and more unforgiving to do so. As others have said, the freed up robo time actually gives you MORE map control than colossus builds, which are much more passive and turtly.
Plus, there's a difference between amoving straight up across the map (which you can't do easily) and harassing the terran with zealots warpins.
Finally, there's examples of games in which the protoss player actually pushes with a templar army and wins the game, for example trap vs supernova on akilon wastes.
Dwf's advice is obviously really good but you are over thinking it imo.
On July 26 2013 15:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:Thinking of trying out protoss. I normally do 1raxFE into bio drop play. I've incorporated spreading widow mines manually (instead of dropping them) but I'm starting to find protoss play look sexy. So im trying to figure out what build to help me transition to toss play.
You can't have the same build in every matchup as any race, so again, gotta be more specific. PvP, PvT or PvZ? Either way, look up the recommended thread section and see if you find anything you might like.
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Wtf, why did I get warned?
My question was much more specific than what the thread OP post answers.
All the OP has in relation to my question was:
Q: How do you deal with Archon/Chargelot all ins?
"By walling off either your main ramp or natural with gateways."
In which I already acknowledged that you needed to wall off - I was asking which tech route was the best to follow up with after a robo opening, which I do not see the thread OP have any detail on?
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Italy12246 Posts
Whatever you want really, if you already held the allin with a wallin (which is more or less all you need together with the obvious cut probes and make units) you can just tech up to what you want (wether it's voids, your own archons or colossi), get a decent army and amove him.
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I still honestly don't understand why I got warned.. what is the justification for it?
Because I'm positively sure there is a best tech follow up against a DT expand to zealot/archon, and not just make anything you want? As I said in my previous post, its not necessarily an all-in, more like a timing that the Korean master league player did to me on whirlwind.
Time warp more useful than photon nexus overcharge for these confrontations correct?
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stay on colossi unless you see a stargate transition coming from your opponent...if you see a stargate being thrown down by them, proceed to either go for storm and expand or go try to kill him with a colo based composition before mass voids or a couple tempests show up
now for the colossi composition you have two options
4 colo rest is zealot/archon
or
10+ colo rest is zealot/archon
I'm not particularly sure which one is better but I've had success with both of them against zealot/archon. You don't necessarily want to move out against zealot/archon til you are near maxed because zealot/archon is cheap so it's easy for them to replenish and easy to build up a max army whereas for your army, it's a little bit more expensive but has better value if both of you are maxed
and yes 2 time warps is essential in pvp late game
photon overcharge just tickles from there on
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Italy12246 Posts
Oh ok then i totally fucked that one up sorry. I just got up and i'm generally pretty frustrated with people that don't read the OP.
Anyway, assuming he doesnt allin you (as in, he's doing a 2base poke), he's (likely) doing that push to take a faster third than you. Your choice is to either go archon yourself and go into a gateway mirror where both players are doing chargelot/archon/immortal or you can go colossus.
If you go colossus you have to be careful because he will (again, likely) be teching to tempest to counter it, so you need to either hit a timing with like 4 colossi or switch out of colossus. Try to beat his gateway army with yours and reinforce with AA as necessary to kill the tempest. If he sticks with pure zealot archon you can do the wol thing and go up to 8 colo then go templar/archon.
The best lategame army both sides aim for i -think- (none is sure on this yet) is probably a combination of archon and tempest.
edit: also if you dont have enough army to stop his army, worrying about what to tech to shouldnt be relevant. Holding off those timings is about having a decent wall and being able to defend it rather than having tech up in time.
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since no one answered the first post in a professional way i have to ask again how to stop 1 base marine tank with like 5or 6 tanks with like 20 marine and 6 maruders and a meddivac which hits at 15 min usually i have immortals by then and collosi on the way but stimmed bio eat immortals b4 they get the tanks so tanks (with superior range ) destroy collosi and bassically everything (i hope i made it clear this time so people can answer 
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Italy12246 Posts
At 15 minutes you can be on 3bases with both colossi and storm on paper, so really, the answer to that is macro better and that's it i'm afraid.
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No prob, thanks for the help, appreciate it, cheers!
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On July 26 2013 18:03 unknown soldier wrote:since no one answered the first post in a professional way i have to ask again how to stop 1 base marine tank with like 5or 6 tanks with like 20 marine and 6 maruders and a meddivac which hits at 15 min usually i have immortals by then and collosi on the way but stimmed bio eat immortals b4 they get the tanks so tanks (with superior range ) destroy collosi and bassically everything (i hope i made it clear this time so people can answer
have charge/colo and don't let him waltz his way to your base so you are contained and have to engage in an unfavorable position...obviously you can sprinkle in some immortals if you want but charge/colo should do the trick pretty easily
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Hi, if possible i'd really appreciate some help with my PvT. I recently got HotS after quitting WoL in 2011 also due to PvT. I was diamond when i stopped playing WoL, currently after about 20 games of HotS i'm sitting in gold (went 5-0 in placements and put in silver wtf?) and playing vs platinum mostly.
In this game I'm asking about, we both open with standard FE builds (I flopped my gas a little bit, but nothing too major), I notice when scouting with my MSc he's getting 3rax with stim so I add on a couple of gateways and a robo to defend against the push - I wasn't sure if he was expanding at this time. He pushed my front which I held off fairly uneventfully, we both lost some units and photon overcharge and my second immortal kept him out. I probably could have controlled a bit better, my reaction time was a bit slow and guardian shield probably would have helped before my sentries got killed.
I tech up to collosus, he doesn't have to tech up past starport because he's terran so he just keeps pumping marine marauder with his increased barrack count, both of us get upgrades so we're 1-1. He makes a push to my front hoping to hit some kind of pre-collosus timing I guess but he was a bit late, my first collosus was already out. he scanned it and ran back to his base.
At this point I knew:
- He had taken a third and I hadn't, If i didn't get an advantage now I would be significantly behind in economy.
- He has only tier one units and medivacs (nothing unusual there, but no vikings.)
- I have 2 collosus
- supply should be around even.
So I went for the push, we engaged and he just completely destroyed me. So I know that MMM shits on gateway units, I've known that since 2010, but I had 2 collosus shooting completely unhindered and they made no difference whatsoever. I noticed he had a better concave but I didn't deem it super significant, until I just had to box my shit and run away. At that point the game was already over and I just had a slow death animation. He dropped my main while pushing the front, I warped in zealots to kill the drop, he just stimmed and right clicked the nexus, when it was dead he picked up his stuff and flew away. I didn't have any stalkers because imo they're trash units vs MMM except when I get like 6-10 to kill vikings. I made some fail attempts to expand but they were really irrelevant because my two base timing had flopped, it was more hoping for a miracle like he didnt attack for 10 mins - but he wasn't braindead so he just pushed. I love watching pro PvT like when Rain plays because he just abuses these terrans, and when they try to drop him he's already 5 steps ahead and just crushes it. Unfortunately i'm not Rain, or even remotely close to being as good as I was, or good at all.
My questions are as follows relating to the replay (http://drop.sc/351598)
- If i see the terran taking a third, is it better to go for a two base timing to kill him, or accept being behind in econ and take a third anyways
- I feel like my macro was pretty good during the game, I kept my money low and tried to stick to warp cycles, was I trying to do too much with 6 gates, double forge and 1 robo collosus? If I remember that should be ok from 2 base fully saturated.
- Main question: Why did I lose that engagement? I know MMM is pretty retarded but seriously? I must be missing something
- If it was a decision based thing rather than a specific engagement based thing for the above question, should I just always try to play macro rather than hit timings? I just didn't see any reason why I couldn't kill him with equal supply and upgrades when I had 2 friggin collosus and all he has is T1.
More general questions:
- Should I change race to zerg? naw j/k lol
- I normally have trouble with drops, i'm trying to emulate the pros and how they defend them but are things like phoenix viable? I kinda feel pretty shit when he just shift click drops some marauders at my thirds, stims and right clicks the nexus and because my army is fairly immobile I won't get to it anywhere near close enough to save it. If i have a few stalkers there, I might kill the medivacs but his units are dirt cheap, and he doesn't really care if he loses them because it's so friggin worth if he just snipes the nexus (which he would.) On the other hand, if I put too many units there my main army will be shit so when I get around to fighting his mmm(v/g) ball will just tear through my army.
- in WoL my PvT was like 35%, everything else around 60%. Now I assume it's around the same, I just have no clue vs terran. I feel like many months of playing vs them has got me into bad habits, i'm always so scared to attack them or do anything really because i'm just expecting some mmm to stim and kill everything costing me the game.
Sorry for the super long post, i've tried to be as informative of my problems as I can while pointing out my obvious mistakes. Please don't misinterpret my tone as balance whine, I only got HotS because a friend of mine promised me that the game balance was a lot better than 2011. I also love watching pro games and streams because they're not bad like me, and the protoss players like Rain and First normally smack their opponents, perhaps even making protoss look a touch too strong. As a result, I know that if I just improve more and more, have like 50 more apm than the terran, defend his stupid shit like widow mines and drops properly, out macro and expand him and have better unit and army control than him, I WILL win. I just need help getting to that stage, because I go on ladder, lose to a terran like this and just close the game and wonder what to do next.
Any help would be much appreciated, many thanks.
EDIT: I forgot to mention clearly stuff I should be doing better.
I feel like I need to:
- Be less scared and take a third earlier, and just find a way to prevent it from dying without losing the game. Hoping to see some examples of this on pro streams and see how they do it.
- Time my twilight council better so I can start 2/2 right after 1/1 without a long-ass delay
- Not get collosus and go for HT instead because most terrans I face around diamond or below level are bad and just get blind vikings because iirc 7 vikings will 2 shot a collosus
- Get less stalkers so my army is less shit and doesnt get raped as hard by his MMM
- Get more stalkers so I can kill his vikings faster and defend against drops easier
- Improve my APM so when I spot his medivac on the minimap I can start warping in faster and hopefully not lose 16 buildings, a nexus, 22 pylons and all the probes (exaggeration don't take me seriously please)
- Get more observers to help me spot drops coming
- I feel like I should use my observers better, but tbh it's not like PvZ where I need to know if he's suddenly build a spire for a muta tech switch or if he's making swarmhost, it's terran lol he's just building MMM and V/G when appropriate. I think hovering my observers over his army is more than enough, and just keeping track of his expansions
- Improve my forcefields in large army battles, I think they're pretty good in small army fights early game atm.
- Actually play the game, rather than losing a PvT on ladder then spending 5 hours watching streams and tournaments, rinse and repeat each time I feel like playing starcraft.
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United States4883 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On July 26 2013 23:22 GoDLy MD wrote:
Hi, if possible i'd really appreciate some help with my PvT. I recently got HotS after quitting WoL in 2011 also due to PvT. I was diamond when i stopped playing WoL, currently after about 20 games of HotS i'm sitting in gold (went 5-0 in placements and put in silver wtf?) and playing vs platinum mostly.
In this game I'm asking about, we both open with standard FE builds (I flopped my gas a little bit, but nothing too major), I notice when scouting with my MSc he's getting 3rax with stim so I add on a couple of gateways and a robo to defend against the push - I wasn't sure if he was expanding at this time. He pushed my front which I held off fairly uneventfully, we both lost some units and photon overcharge and my second immortal kept him out. I probably could have controlled a bit better, my reaction time was a bit slow and guardian shield probably would have helped before my sentries got killed.
I tech up to collosus, he doesn't have to tech up past starport because he's terran so he just keeps pumping marine marauder with his increased barrack count, both of us get upgrades so we're 1-1. He makes a push to my front hoping to hit some kind of pre-collosus timing I guess but he was a bit late, my first collosus was already out. he scanned it and ran back to his base.
At this point I knew:
- He had taken a third and I hadn't, If i didn't get an advantage now I would be significantly behind in economy.
- He has only tier one units and medivacs (nothing unusual there, but no vikings.)
- I have 2 collosus
- supply should be around even.
So I went for the push, we engaged and he just completely destroyed me. So I know that MMM shits on gateway units, I've known that since 2010, but I had 2 collosus shooting completely unhindered and they made no difference whatsoever. I noticed he had a better concave but I didn't deem it super significant, until I just had to box my shit and run away. At that point the game was already over and I just had a slow death animation. He dropped my main while pushing the front, I warped in zealots to kill the drop, he just stimmed and right clicked the nexus, when it was dead he picked up his stuff and flew away. I didn't have any stalkers because imo they're trash units vs MMM except when I get like 6-10 to kill vikings. I made some fail attempts to expand but they were really irrelevant because my two base timing had flopped, it was more hoping for a miracle like he didnt attack for 10 mins - but he wasn't braindead so he just pushed. I love watching pro PvT like when Rain plays because he just abuses these terrans, and when they try to drop him he's already 5 steps ahead and just crushes it. Unfortunately i'm not Rain, or even remotely close to being as good as I was, or good at all.
My questions are as follows relating to the replay (http://drop.sc/351598)
- If i see the terran taking a third, is it better to go for a two base timing to kill him, or accept being behind in econ and take a third anyways
- I feel like my macro was pretty good during the game, I kept my money low and tried to stick to warp cycles, was I trying to do too much with 6 gates, double forge and 1 robo collosus? If I remember that should be ok from 2 base fully saturated.
- Main question: Why did I lose that engagement? I know MMM is pretty retarded but seriously? I must be missing something
- If it was a decision based thing rather than a specific engagement based thing for the above question, should I just always try to play macro rather than hit timings? I just didn't see any reason why I couldn't kill him with equal supply and upgrades when I had 2 friggin collosus and all he has is T1.
More general questions:
- Should I change race to zerg? naw j/k lol
- I normally have trouble with drops, i'm trying to emulate the pros and how they defend them but are things like phoenix viable? I kinda feel pretty shit when he just shift click drops some marauders at my thirds, stims and right clicks the nexus and because my army is fairly immobile I won't get to it anywhere near close enough to save it. If i have a few stalkers there, I might kill the medivacs but his units are dirt cheap, and he doesn't really care if he loses them because it's so friggin worth if he just snipes the nexus (which he would.) On the other hand, if I put too many units there my main army will be shit so when I get around to fighting his mmm(v/g) ball will just tear through my army.
- in WoL my PvT was like 35%, everything else around 60%. Now I assume it's around the same, I just have no clue vs terran. I feel like many months of playing vs them has got me into bad habits, i'm always so scared to attack them or do anything really because i'm just expecting some mmm to stim and kill everything costing me the game.
Sorry for the super long post, i've tried to be as informative of my problems as I can while pointing out my obvious mistakes. Please don't misinterpret my tone as balance whine, I only got HotS because a friend of mine promised me that the game balance was a lot better than 2011. I also love watching pro games and streams because they're not bad like me, and the protoss players like Rain and First normally smack their opponents, perhaps even making protoss look a touch too strong. As a result, I know that if I just improve more and more, have like 50 more apm than the terran, defend his stupid shit like widow mines and drops properly, out macro and expand him and have better unit and army control than him, I WILL win. I just need help getting to that stage, because I go on ladder, lose to a terran like this and just close the game and wonder what to do next.
Any help would be much appreciated, many thanks.
EDIT: I forgot to mention clearly stuff I should be doing better.
I feel like I need to:
- Be less scared and take a third earlier, and just find a way to prevent it from dying without losing the game. Hoping to see some examples of this on pro streams and see how they do it.
- Time my twilight council better so I can start 2/2 right after 1/1 without a long-ass delay
- Not get collosus and go for HT instead because most terrans I face around diamond or below level are bad and just get blind vikings because iirc 7 vikings will 2 shot a collosus
- Get less stalkers so my army is less shit and doesnt get raped as hard by his MMM
- Get more stalkers so I can kill his vikings faster and defend against drops easier
- Improve my APM so when I spot his medivac on the minimap I can start warping in faster and hopefully not lose 16 buildings, a nexus, 22 pylons and all the probes (exaggeration don't take me seriously please)
- Get more observers to help me spot drops coming
- I feel like I should use my observers better, but tbh it's not like PvZ where I need to know if he's suddenly build a spire for a muta tech switch or if he's making swarmhost, it's terran lol he's just building MMM and V/G when appropriate. I think hovering my observers over his army is more than enough, and just keeping track of his expansions
- Improve my forcefields in large army battles, I think they're pretty good in small army fights early game atm.
- Actually play the game, rather than losing a PvT on ladder then spending 5 hours watching streams and tournaments, rinse and repeat each time I feel like playing starcraft.
Just a suggestion, but in the future a replay instead of just a generalized analysis will get you a lot more specific and structured advice. Here goes....
In PvT, terran should pretty much always have a 3rd earlier than protoss, it's just how it works. Traditionally, the protoss building structure is GENERALLY 1-gate FE into 3-gate/robo, then gases at the natural -> [double] forge/twilight -> templar OR colossus bay, then add on 3-4 more gates at 9:00 to defend 10:00 aggression. In HotS, there have been a few changes such as swapping the order of forges and gateways 2 and 3 as well as almost always making a warp prism at 9:00 to counter harass, but for the most part it's mostly the same. Watch some streams and OSL for some updated builds, as well as Day9's recent Daily on aggressive PvT timings for some ideas.
You want to get up your 3rd nexus by ~14:00 at the very latest. If your opponent isn't being aggressive at all, you can go for it almost immediately after your initial 1-2 warpin rounds (~11:00); if your opponent stays very aggressive, it may take you until 14:00 when you have the colossus count to really win any straight-up engagements in your natural. If your opponent does any wonky builds with a REALLY fast 3rd CC (say, 1-rax FE into 3CC or quadruple reaper into 3CC), you can take your 3rd at 9:00-10:00 before adding on extra gateways.
You should never attack directly unless you kill off a good chunk of your opponent's army with minimal losses to your own (or unless you're doing a pre-planned 2-base all-in such as colossus all-in or chargelot/archon all-in. A good example of this is a mistake that terrans make quite a bit: they will try to drop in your main or 3rd and snipe the CC with 2-3 full medivacs. If you feedback all the medivacs or just kill off the drop with almost no losses, you can counterattack IMMEDIATELY and often times straight-up kill the terran player. Otherwise, try to keep your army positioned wisely (generally a large clump between your natural and 3rd and a secondary force of ~5 stalkers/4 zealots in your main, MsC positioned in between any 2 bases) and only take direct engagements if you are certain you can win.
All of this is really tricky, and I definitely feel your pain in this matchup too. The thing you want to do is make sure you're not overestimating how much MMM your opponent has. It generally feels scary to move anywhere or do anything because a drop could swing by any second, but if you're keeping a good eye on the minimap and putting out good spotters, you should have no problem keeping up with your opponent's army.
One other thing that's gonna seem really scary and what seems to be near impossible to deal with right now: an attack RIGHT AT 14:00 with an SCV pull. This attack is generally designed to kill a colossus player before storm is up and 90% of the time it does. Not really sure what the answer is yet, but most people are agreeing either stopping on 2 colossus in favor of faster templar or going crazy with colossus (6-7) and being very aggressive while the 3rd base economy kicks in and you're switching tech.
Hope this helps some! I'm sorry it's such generalized advice, but again, it's based off of some pretty general information. A replay is always going to be better for analyzing and giving thoughtful advice.
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On July 27 2013 01:40 SC2John wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 26 2013 23:22 GoDLy MD wrote:
Hi, if possible i'd really appreciate some help with my PvT. I recently got HotS after quitting WoL in 2011 also due to PvT. I was diamond when i stopped playing WoL, currently after about 20 games of HotS i'm sitting in gold (went 5-0 in placements and put in silver wtf?) and playing vs platinum mostly.
In this game I'm asking about, we both open with standard FE builds (I flopped my gas a little bit, but nothing too major), I notice when scouting with my MSc he's getting 3rax with stim so I add on a couple of gateways and a robo to defend against the push - I wasn't sure if he was expanding at this time. He pushed my front which I held off fairly uneventfully, we both lost some units and photon overcharge and my second immortal kept him out. I probably could have controlled a bit better, my reaction time was a bit slow and guardian shield probably would have helped before my sentries got killed.
I tech up to collosus, he doesn't have to tech up past starport because he's terran so he just keeps pumping marine marauder with his increased barrack count, both of us get upgrades so we're 1-1. He makes a push to my front hoping to hit some kind of pre-collosus timing I guess but he was a bit late, my first collosus was already out. he scanned it and ran back to his base.
At this point I knew:
- He had taken a third and I hadn't, If i didn't get an advantage now I would be significantly behind in economy.
- He has only tier one units and medivacs (nothing unusual there, but no vikings.)
- I have 2 collosus
- supply should be around even.
So I went for the push, we engaged and he just completely destroyed me. So I know that MMM shits on gateway units, I've known that since 2010, but I had 2 collosus shooting completely unhindered and they made no difference whatsoever. I noticed he had a better concave but I didn't deem it super significant, until I just had to box my shit and run away. At that point the game was already over and I just had a slow death animation. He dropped my main while pushing the front, I warped in zealots to kill the drop, he just stimmed and right clicked the nexus, when it was dead he picked up his stuff and flew away. I didn't have any stalkers because imo they're trash units vs MMM except when I get like 6-10 to kill vikings. I made some fail attempts to expand but they were really irrelevant because my two base timing had flopped, it was more hoping for a miracle like he didnt attack for 10 mins - but he wasn't braindead so he just pushed. I love watching pro PvT like when Rain plays because he just abuses these terrans, and when they try to drop him he's already 5 steps ahead and just crushes it. Unfortunately i'm not Rain, or even remotely close to being as good as I was, or good at all.
My questions are as follows relating to the replay (http://drop.sc/351598)
- If i see the terran taking a third, is it better to go for a two base timing to kill him, or accept being behind in econ and take a third anyways
- I feel like my macro was pretty good during the game, I kept my money low and tried to stick to warp cycles, was I trying to do too much with 6 gates, double forge and 1 robo collosus? If I remember that should be ok from 2 base fully saturated.
- Main question: Why did I lose that engagement? I know MMM is pretty retarded but seriously? I must be missing something
- If it was a decision based thing rather than a specific engagement based thing for the above question, should I just always try to play macro rather than hit timings? I just didn't see any reason why I couldn't kill him with equal supply and upgrades when I had 2 friggin collosus and all he has is T1.
More general questions:
- Should I change race to zerg? naw j/k lol
- I normally have trouble with drops, i'm trying to emulate the pros and how they defend them but are things like phoenix viable? I kinda feel pretty shit when he just shift click drops some marauders at my thirds, stims and right clicks the nexus and because my army is fairly immobile I won't get to it anywhere near close enough to save it. If i have a few stalkers there, I might kill the medivacs but his units are dirt cheap, and he doesn't really care if he loses them because it's so friggin worth if he just snipes the nexus (which he would.) On the other hand, if I put too many units there my main army will be shit so when I get around to fighting his mmm(v/g) ball will just tear through my army.
- in WoL my PvT was like 35%, everything else around 60%. Now I assume it's around the same, I just have no clue vs terran. I feel like many months of playing vs them has got me into bad habits, i'm always so scared to attack them or do anything really because i'm just expecting some mmm to stim and kill everything costing me the game.
Sorry for the super long post, i've tried to be as informative of my problems as I can while pointing out my obvious mistakes. Please don't misinterpret my tone as balance whine, I only got HotS because a friend of mine promised me that the game balance was a lot better than 2011. I also love watching pro games and streams because they're not bad like me, and the protoss players like Rain and First normally smack their opponents, perhaps even making protoss look a touch too strong. As a result, I know that if I just improve more and more, have like 50 more apm than the terran, defend his stupid shit like widow mines and drops properly, out macro and expand him and have better unit and army control than him, I WILL win. I just need help getting to that stage, because I go on ladder, lose to a terran like this and just close the game and wonder what to do next.
Any help would be much appreciated, many thanks.
EDIT: I forgot to mention clearly stuff I should be doing better.
I feel like I need to:
- Be less scared and take a third earlier, and just find a way to prevent it from dying without losing the game. Hoping to see some examples of this on pro streams and see how they do it.
- Time my twilight council better so I can start 2/2 right after 1/1 without a long-ass delay
- Not get collosus and go for HT instead because most terrans I face around diamond or below level are bad and just get blind vikings because iirc 7 vikings will 2 shot a collosus
- Get less stalkers so my army is less shit and doesnt get raped as hard by his MMM
- Get more stalkers so I can kill his vikings faster and defend against drops easier
- Improve my APM so when I spot his medivac on the minimap I can start warping in faster and hopefully not lose 16 buildings, a nexus, 22 pylons and all the probes (exaggeration don't take me seriously please)
- Get more observers to help me spot drops coming
- I feel like I should use my observers better, but tbh it's not like PvZ where I need to know if he's suddenly build a spire for a muta tech switch or if he's making swarmhost, it's terran lol he's just building MMM and V/G when appropriate. I think hovering my observers over his army is more than enough, and just keeping track of his expansions
- Improve my forcefields in large army battles, I think they're pretty good in small army fights early game atm.
- Actually play the game, rather than losing a PvT on ladder then spending 5 hours watching streams and tournaments, rinse and repeat each time I feel like playing starcraft. Just a suggestion, but in the future a replay instead of just a generalized analysis will get you a lot more specific and structured advice. Here goes.... In PvT, terran should pretty much always have a 3rd earlier than protoss, it's just how it works. Traditionally, the protoss building structure is GENERALLY 1-gate FE into 3-gate/robo, then gases at the natural -> [double] forge/twilight -> templar OR colossus bay, then add on 3-4 more gates at 9:00 to defend 10:00 aggression. In HotS, there have been a few changes such as swapping the order of forges and gateways 2 and 3 as well as almost always making a warp prism at 9:00 to counter harass, but for the most part it's mostly the same. Watch some streams and OSL for some updated builds, as well as Day9's recent Daily on aggressive PvT timings for some ideas. You want to get up your 3rd nexus by ~14:00 at the very latest. If your opponent isn't being aggressive at all, you can go for it almost immediately after your initial 1-2 warpin rounds (~11:00); if your opponent stays very aggressive, it may take you until 14:00 when you have the colossus count to really win any straight-up engagements in your natural. If your opponent does any wonky builds with a REALLY fast 3rd CC (say, 1-rax FE into 3CC or quadruple reaper into 3CC), you can take your 3rd at 9:00-10:00 before adding on extra gateways. You should never attack directly unless you kill off a good chunk of your opponent's army with minimal losses to your own (or unless you're doing a pre-planned 2-base all-in such as colossus all-in or chargelot/archon all-in. A good example of this is a mistake that terrans make quite a bit: they will try to drop in your main or 3rd and snipe the CC with 2-3 full medivacs. If you feedback all the medivacs or just kill off the drop with almost no losses, you can counterattack IMMEDIATELY and often times straight-up kill the terran player. Otherwise, try to keep your army positioned wisely (generally a large clump between your natural and 3rd and a secondary force of ~5 stalkers/4 zealots in your main, MsC positioned in between any 2 bases) and only take direct engagements if you are certain you can win. All of this is really tricky, and I definitely feel your pain in this matchup too. The thing you want to do is make sure you're not overestimating how much MMM your opponent has. It generally feels scary to move anywhere or do anything because a drop could swing by any second, but if you're keeping a good eye on the minimap and putting out good spotters, you should have no problem keeping up with your opponent's army. One other thing that's gonna seem really scary and what seems to be near impossible to deal with right now: an attack RIGHT AT 14:00 with an SCV pull. This attack is generally designed to kill a colossus player before storm is up and 90% of the time it does. Not really sure what the answer is yet, but most people are agreeing either stopping on 2 colossus in favor of faster templar or going crazy with colossus (6-7) and being very aggressive while the 3rd base economy kicks in and you're switching tech. Hope this helps some! I'm sorry it's such generalized advice, but again, it's based off of some pretty general information. A replay is always going to be better for analyzing and giving thoughtful advice.
Hi, many thanks for your help John. I'm sorry I probably didn't make it obvious, there is a reply attached in my original post. It's my fault though I just put it in brackets somewhere in the middle of my massive wall of text so I understand why it wasn't obvious for you to see. I've gone ahead and bolded it now.
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On July 26 2013 17:00 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 15:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 26 2013 09:00 Teoita wrote:
What matchup? Thinking of trying out protoss. I normally do 1raxFE into bio drop play. I've incorporated spreading widow mines manually (instead of dropping them) but I'm starting to find protoss play look sexy. So im trying to figure out what build to help me transition to toss play. You can't have the same build in every matchup as any race, so again, gotta be more specific. PvP, PvT or PvZ? Either way, look up the recommended thread section and see if you find anything you might like.
Got it, then I'll just use the OP's suggestions then 
Was just wondering if there was a good practice build to practice mechanics in a more generalized way (such as the way 1RaxFE in WoL was so flexible)
Thanks a bunches
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Any tips on how to play a blink + msc scout build vs 1 gate fe? I can't seem to win with a push, and I don't know where to draw the line with this form of aggression. Today my opponent got a pretty delayed robo, but quite a few zealots. The moment his immortal came out, I tried blinking on top of it to snipe it right away, but yeah... his zealots just ripped my stalkers apart.
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On July 24 2013 17:01 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 12:29 b_unnies wrote:
2. in PvT, if both of us went a FE build, and I later scout him getting a very fast 3rd (before any medivac pressure), how do I respond? it seems if I get a quick 3rd of my own, the economy doesn't kick in fast enough when he does get medivacs 2) Take your third off 3gates instead of 6, proceed with your build as normal. It sounds like you aren't macroing properly.
standard expo->3gate robo->6 gate colossus isn't really my build though. my build has 2nd/3rd gate is heavily delayed until maybe 7~ mins. though i guess it makes it impossible to answer my question without multiple reps outlining my build
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On July 27 2013 11:35 vhapter wrote:
Any tips on how to play a blink + msc scout build vs 1 gate fe? I can't seem to win with a push, and I don't know where to draw the line with this form of aggression. Today my opponent got a pretty delayed robo, but quite a few zealots. The moment his immortal came out, I tried blinking on top of it to snipe it right away, but yeah... his zealots just ripped my stalkers apart.
so this is very dependent on when you put on aggression...do you put any aggression before blink is done (basically before nexus is done)...if so you should be able to put him in a very bad spot (snipe msc or snipe his sentries or snipe both)...
if you don't put any aggression til you have blink then you have abuse mobility rather than trying to blink on top of him...that means blink into his main...pick off a pylon or any structures or any stranded units and blink away without losing any of your stalkers...from there you have to decide do you want to expand or all-in him...if you want to expand then you have to use your mobility and buy time where he has to be on his side of the map til he has blink...if you go for an all-in, then you have to force photon overcharges as soon as possible and back off unless he has very few units...then you have to abuse your mobility to force him to engage in an unfavorable position like blinking in his main and setting up a concave at his ramp
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EPT
