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Italy12246 Posts
On July 24 2013 10:41 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 10:01 boseok243 wrote:
Hey Guys, I couldn't find a more recent post on how to wall off during FFE vs Zerg.
I am fairly new to toss so I'm not used to how to wall off.
I just want to know what buildings I wall off with on each map with a zealot gap.
Thanks Alot http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628These are old maps, but the walloffs are pretty much the same on newer maps, just copy the general configuration. I'm thinking about writing a guide on FFE in HotS (a little different from the WoL version).
I swear there was a bunch of screenshots posted sometime with wallofs on all the maps. I thought i had added it to the OP, but guess not T_T
On July 24 2013 12:29 b_unnies wrote:
I have a couple questions regarding PvP and PvT
1. if i'm going a stargate expand build, and I scout him going a voidray all-in or a blink all-in, do i produce voids or phoenix
2. in PvT, if both of us went a FE build, and I later scout him getting a very fast 3rd (before any medivac pressure), how do I respond? it seems if I get a quick 3rd of my own, the economy doesn't kick in fast enough when he does get medivacs
1) Voids vs blink, phoenix vs voids. That said, one base void ray allins are pretty bad, phoenix based allins are scarier.
2) Take your third off 3gates instead of 6, proceed with your build as normal. It sounds like you aren't macroing properly.
On July 24 2013 16:05 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Why not a 13 forge? 13 forge 17 nexus is the safest way to FFE unless I'm totally wrong, it just puts you behind against anything that isn't an early pool. In WoL you'd go 13 forge if you didn't scout your opponent in the first starting location and you wanted to be safe against a potential early pool. Don't see why it should be different at all in HotS since that scenario is still unchanged.
The most important thing against a 10 pool is getting the cannon up fast so his lings won't be able to kill it or run by without losses because that stuff loses games. Wall off before taking your nexus and you should be fine. Don't even have to full wall, a probe on hold position with enough minerals to close the gap if it's being attacked should do the trick
Since you lose some mining time by sending the probe down at 9, scouting with it, and sending a second probe to make the forge, you can't actually afford to make it at 13 without probe cuts, and even 14 is a stretch. A 15 forge is fine against any pool timing anyway. 13 forge is an older, overly safe variation that doesnt have many pros if you aren't going to cannon rush.
On July 24 2013 05:16 bretfart wrote:
Hey Guys,
what do I do against a 10 pool on a 2 player map if I'm doing a FE? I am normally opting for a 17 Nexus, 17 Forge and so on. So if I scout the 10 pool, what do I have to do then?
Any early pool will be super super ahead of blind nexus first; if he's 6pooling you can kinda just retreat in the main and be somewhat only slightly behind (but really, fucked anyway) if you just defend with a cannon in your main.
10pool has a lot more econ so he will both deny your expo, kill a bunch of probes and not sacrifice too much econ for it, so you are absolutely, completely and utterly fucked unless you cut probes and get your wall up in time, which on most ladder maps isn't possible because they have really wide ramps (compared to, say, shakuras or ohana).
I would recommend going nexus first reactively on 2 player maps, going for a forge if you see a faster pool than normal.
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On July 24 2013 17:01 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 10:41 SC2John wrote:On July 24 2013 10:01 boseok243 wrote:
Hey Guys, I couldn't find a more recent post on how to wall off during FFE vs Zerg.
I am fairly new to toss so I'm not used to how to wall off.
I just want to know what buildings I wall off with on each map with a zealot gap.
Thanks Alot http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628These are old maps, but the walloffs are pretty much the same on newer maps, just copy the general configuration. I'm thinking about writing a guide on FFE in HotS (a little different from the WoL version). I swear there was a bunch of screenshots posted sometime with wallofs on all the maps. I thought i had added it to the OP, but guess not T_T
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402753¤tpage=139#2776
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On July 24 2013 17:01 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 10:41 SC2John wrote:On July 24 2013 10:01 boseok243 wrote:
Hey Guys, I couldn't find a more recent post on how to wall off during FFE vs Zerg.
I am fairly new to toss so I'm not used to how to wall off.
I just want to know what buildings I wall off with on each map with a zealot gap.
Thanks Alot http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628These are old maps, but the walloffs are pretty much the same on newer maps, just copy the general configuration. I'm thinking about writing a guide on FFE in HotS (a little different from the WoL version). I swear there was a bunch of screenshots posted sometime with wallofs on all the maps. I thought i had added it to the OP, but guess not T_T Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 12:29 b_unnies wrote:
I have a couple questions regarding PvP and PvT
1. if i'm going a stargate expand build, and I scout him going a voidray all-in or a blink all-in, do i produce voids or phoenix
2. in PvT, if both of us went a FE build, and I later scout him getting a very fast 3rd (before any medivac pressure), how do I respond? it seems if I get a quick 3rd of my own, the economy doesn't kick in fast enough when he does get medivacs Sory, 1) Voids vs blink, phoenix vs voids. That said, one base void ray allins are pretty bad, phoenix based allins are scarier. 2) Take your third off 3gates instead of 6, proceed with your build as normal. It sounds like you aren't macroing properly. Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 16:05 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Why not a 13 forge? 13 forge 17 nexus is the safest way to FFE unless I'm totally wrong, it just puts you behind against anything that isn't an early pool. In WoL you'd go 13 forge if you didn't scout your opponent in the first starting location and you wanted to be safe against a potential early pool. Don't see why it should be different at all in HotS since that scenario is still unchanged.
The most important thing against a 10 pool is getting the cannon up fast so his lings won't be able to kill it or run by without losses because that stuff loses games. Wall off before taking your nexus and you should be fine. Don't even have to full wall, a probe on hold position with enough minerals to close the gap if it's being attacked should do the trick Since you lose some mining time by sending the probe down at 9, scouting with it, and sending a second probe to make the forge, you can't actually afford to make it at 13 without probe cuts, and even 14 is a stretch. A 15 forge is fine against any pool timing anyway. 13 forge is an older, overly safe variation that doesnt have many pros if you aren't going to cannon rush. Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:16 bretfart wrote:
Hey Guys,
what do I do against a 10 pool on a 2 player map if I'm doing a FE? I am normally opting for a 17 Nexus, 17 Forge and so on. So if I scout the 10 pool, what do I have to do then? Any early pool will be super super ahead of blind nexus first; if he's 6pooling you can kinda just retreat in the main and be somewhat only slightly behind (but really, fucked anyway) if you just defend with a cannon in your main. 10pool has a lot more econ so he will both deny your expo, kill a bunch of probes and not sacrifice too much econ for it, so you are absolutely, completely and utterly fucked unless you cut probes and get your wall up in time, which on most ladder maps isn't possible because they have really wide ramps (compared to, say, shakuras or ohana). I would recommend going nexus first reactively on 2 player maps, going for a forge if you see a faster pool than normal.
I'm sorry, I am not a native speaker of English  I don't understand what you are saying. At first you're saying 15 forge is safe against any pool. So should I go 15 Forge, 17 Nexus or 15 forge, 15 nexus? Then you say "I would recommend going nexus first reactively on 2 player maps, going for a forge if you see a faster pool than normal". Does that mean I should go Nexus first, scout and if I see early pool immediately throw down a forge? Well, that's what I am doing but I can't stop a 10 pool with it (at least its super close; 8 pool would definitely be too fast for me).
Sorry, I guess I didnt understand because of my English skills 
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Italy12246 Posts
If you 9 scout on 2player maps you will be there in time to check out his exact pool timing. You are safe to go nexus first as long as you see a second overlord and a batch of 3 drones being made (meaning 14 pool or later). If you see an early pool you scouted fast enough that you can just throw down a forge at around 15 supply and be completely fine. On the other hand on 4 player maps you have to scout with two probes if you want to be 100% safe against early pools.
So, tl:dr: 9 scout,
- if there's no early pool 17 nexus/17 forge/17 pylon/17 gate/19 cannon
- if there's a super early (6-8) pool either wall off if you can (possible on only some maps where it takes 3 buildings to wall like Planet S and Star Station) or get a pylon and cannon up in your main, abandon the low ground forge/pylon and proceed as normal while gateway expanding
- if there's an early-ish (9-12) pool get 1-2 cannons before your nexus and you should be fine; bring down probes to buy time if the cannons are late.
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hello guys i am a starfriend / starter edition toss i generally have problems with tank anything especially marines this replay i am posting IS NOT THE ISSUUE as the terrain went so heavy maruder so one vr could flip the game around but if he went for marines and medivacs instead of all those maruders what to do?
http://ggtracker.com/matches/3744316
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On July 25 2013 19:05 unknown soldier wrote:hello guys i am a starfriend / starter edition toss i generally have problems with tank anything especially marines this replay i am posting IS NOT THE ISSUUE as the terrain went so heavy maruder so one vr could flip the game around but if he went for marines and medivacs instead of all those maruders what to do? http://ggtracker.com/matches/3744316
why are you posting a replay if that's not what your question is pertaining to?
if he goes mass marine, make colossus and high templar with storm.
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Storm is generally a good idea in PvT unless he has a lot of ghosts. It and feedback can turn a game around very quickly.
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Teoita, why is commonly accepted that colossus first is better than fast storm/twilight tech in PvT?
From my personal experience, if I go for fast storm i can skip stalker production and go chargelot heavy (saving gas for templar/archon and fast upgrades). With the hellbat nerf, zealots seem more useful than never even for drop defense.
And the colossus follow-up in the late game could catch terran off guard (with double robo production, for example).
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Austria24417 Posts
I don't think it's generally accepted. Both are just as viable. A templar/gateway style can definitely be more unforgiving and is a bit harder to master in my opinion but I actually think it's more rewarding once you get it right, not to mention that at lower levels people tend to have bad control (splitting and ghost control as well) which makes it easier to pull it off if you have decent control.
And you're right, the switch over to colossus can be brutal. Parting's 80% PvT winrate during his WoL dominance was mainly from playing a templar style into a heavy colossus switch with DT and warp prism harrass lategame.
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Italy12246 Posts
It's not generally accepted nor my opinion, i love my templar :D
Colossus is considered by many to be a bit easier to play so tons of people settled into that when Hots was released, but now templar play is coming back.
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i posted a replay to show the time of the push and it is not mass marine the problem is in the TANKS they simply siege and eat anything ( 5 of them with support of any units can destroy immortals) so i simply lose my army and it is GG (unless he has low marine count so i go sky)
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United States7483 Posts
On July 25 2013 22:23 Tiaraju9 wrote:
Teoita, why is commonly accepted that colossus first is better than fast storm/twilight tech in PvT?
From my personal experience, if I go for fast storm i can skip stalker production and go chargelot heavy (saving gas for templar/archon and fast upgrades). With the hellbat nerf, zealots seem more useful than never even for drop defense.
And the colossus follow-up in the late game could catch terran off guard (with double robo production, for example).
It's not generally accepted, but it's common because the first colossus comes out a lot sooner than storm does. At the highest level, we see a lot of one colossus into storm builds while taking a third, the one colossus, forcefields and mothership core for defense until storm gets out. If you rush storm, there's a larger window where the terran can attack you, unless you cut back on upgrades (although if you're going storm you can delay weapon upgrades just fine). The other thing is that storm is a lot harder to play if you go storm first, since you might only have a few for the first push, and if you whiff those or he dodges well you probably just die, wheras with a colossus as long as your forcefields are okay you'll crush the first poke.
Going storm first is definitely viable though, and players like LGIM-First have been doing a lot of that kind of thing quite successfully. I saw a game recently (can't remember which protoss) where he rushed storm super super fast, cut back on upgrades a lot, and started with really quick storm drops with other templar at home for defense. It felt a little bit fragile but strong as hell if he controlled extremely well.
Storm openers are just fine, as long as your build accounts for it. It is harder to go double forge while going storm though, which is part of the reason, as double engi-bay builds are common.
But yeah, storm openers are really good, especially now since ghost openers are not a part of the current metagame. Also, storm openers are better at dealing with drops than colossi openers are, and archons are fantastic mid-game units against terran. The most important thing with any storm based play is good map awareness, because templar are so slow you need them in proper positions ahead of time.
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Italy12246 Posts
More or less, it goes like this:
Pros of going Colo first:
- Easier to hold off straight up attacks early on
- Easier to go double forge to (potentially) set up a 3/3 stormless maxed timing
- More forgiving micro wise
- Can be more deceiving scouting wise with all the possible builds, ie 1colo no range, 2colo no range (arguably templar heavy builds but whatever), 2colo+range, 3colo+range, non-stop colossus
- Easy to attack straight up
Cons of going Colo first:
- Can be weaker to timings later on, especially scv trains
- Way more immobile, the army is basically impossible to split up
- Less map presence/harassment potential
Pros of going templar first:
- Much easier army to split up, freed up robo time for more obs and warp prisms, which means
- A LOT more map presence and harassment potential than colossus. If you dont play vs pros, your opponent can't micro vs chargelots on 2 fronts so your zealots will wreck shit if fighting on multiple fronts.
- Focusing on storm leaves more room for comebacks
- Can afford a slightly faster third (debatable)
- Arguably more fun
Cons of going templar first:
- Less forgiving micro-wise
- Much harder to go double forge, you are forced to choose between a high templar count and faster upgrades
- Can be a little more fragile
- Harder time attacking straight up across the map
I personally open templar every PvT
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Great points, guys. I'm glad to see that my own reasoning made some sense.
I wondering if its a good idea make 1 or 2 archons before storm finishes just to be safe.
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Italy12246 Posts
If necessary yes do it. Try to get feedbacks off before morphing the archon(s).
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What's a good transition build for a Platinum Terran into experimenting with Protoss?
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Italy12246 Posts
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Teoita do you feel that going templar first gives the T too much map control to simply get a really fast 4th? Seeing as you can't really be agressive until like (I'm guessing) 13-14 minutes ingame.
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I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with zealot/archon follow up (not necessarily 1 base) after initial DT's, even when I take 0 economic damage with a robo opening, I find that if I try to expand before him (is that a mistake?), the nexus + building wall off already uses all my resources and I have actually no units to stop the army regardless.
Also, say you opened up with robo against a DT expand build, what is the most appropriate tech choice people follow up with? I find collosus to be way too late if he does a timing with zealot/archon. I'm starting to think blink stalkers makes sense?
User was warned for this post
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On July 26 2013 09:25 Clarity_nl wrote:
Teoita do you feel that going templar first gives the T too much map control to simply get a really fast 4th? Seeing as you can't really be agressive until like (I'm guessing) 13-14 minutes ingame.
How can you not be able to be aggressive earlier if you can have a very early warp prism to counter drop terrans and you can dump minerals on zealots since all you need for HT is gas?
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EPT
