EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 143
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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G-Near
Australia1 Post
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
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learning88
United States160 Posts
PvT: PvZ: But for PvP, I can't seem to find a safe macro build. I just want her to be able to work on her mechanics through standard play and she'll eventually learn to branch out. What PvP build is considered standard these days? | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
ugh that build is okay-ish...if they go mass reapers you will be in trouble though what league is she? I started a bronze to masters series so if she is pretty low (gold and below) she can learn a lot from them...I not only show a super safe opening for all the matchups but the general concept/mindset you want to have (i am talking about pvt in the beginning b/c i'm a noob and didn't see that it was PvP LOL...actually just rewatching it...that is probably not the best game to show in PvP b/c I stopped making units just b/c of a higher level read...what I mean from this is b/c I killed the pylon and didn't see him move out, I decided to skip production and get a nexus...at lower league you want to constantly make units from the gateway so I should've shown 2 sentries in production) pvp standard play is going to be opening up with the 3 stalker rush this build came from wol but can still work with hots...from there you want to grab a ms core and a gateway and some kind of tech...if she is lower league...I would recommend robo b/c it's still the safest tech route of the 3 for Protoss in pvp | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
Sidenote: if anyone has experience with oracle openers in PvZ, I'd like to hear thoughts on it in terms of strengths, weaknesses, playstyle, etc. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
Also, if I haven't been able to scout their tech, should I go colossi or high templar? I've been going colossus in response to seeing hydras/swarm hosts but often get destroyed by corruptors and multi pronged to lose economy. And if I go colossi blind and they go muta I'm obviously screwed. Should I just leave out colossi altogether or just make 1-2 and immediately transition? | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 22 2013 11:54 Larkin wrote: If I do a lot of damage to a Zerg with a 5 phoenix opener(like killing 10-20 drones, queens and ovies) should I take a 3rd or go for it with immortals and a lot of gateways? I feel that if I take a 3rd base I often lose to roach hydra corruptor. Also, if I haven't been able to scout their tech, should I go colossi or high templar? I've been going colossus in response to seeing hydras/swarm hosts but often get destroyed by corruptors and multi pronged to lose economy. And if I go colossi blind and they go muta I'm obviously screwed. Should I just leave out colossi altogether or just make 1-2 and immediately transition? In PvZ, you should almost always be taking your 3rd before 12:00 (unless the zerg is being very aggressive). In a tight build order, this generally means that you start your 3rd around the time the 4th or 5th phoenix is popping out, you should have a MsC/3-5 sentries/1 immortal/a few zealots. As for scouting...between hallucination scouts and phoenix, there is NO WAY you can't scout their tech. Either way, though, you should automatically build a robotics bay while taking your 3rd so that you can get a colossus out in time for a hydra push or a swarm host contain. If you opponent goes muta/corruptor, just cancel the bay or just forgo colossus in favor of a second stargate + fleet beacon. Check out this guide for some more details and an exact build order: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420782 | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On July 22 2013 11:34 SC2John wrote: Hey, been playing a lot of stargate PvZ in HotS (for obvious reasons) and playing around with oracle openers a lot. I feel like I've yet to see an oracle opening in a high profile game. Not just a single oracle for hopefully some damage, but an oracle opening into a macro play (kind of like Rain's oracle PvT). Have I missed this or is there a really good oracle game or games floating around out there? Sidenote: if anyone has experience with oracle openers in PvZ, I'd like to hear thoughts on it in terms of strengths, weaknesses, playstyle, etc. I saw Naniwa do this thing on his stream, where he'd open gateway expand into a fairly early gateway pressure at the zerg's third while making 2 oracles to hit the zerg's main base (he sends the first one right away). I don't know a thing about gateway expands vs zerg though, so you will have to either find a tournament vod (I don't think he's done this at a tournament though) or watch his stream whenever he decides/is able to stream again. | ||
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TarLaPaN
United States113 Posts
On July 22 2013 12:18 SC2John wrote: In PvZ, you should almost always be taking your 3rd before 12:00 (unless the zerg is being very aggressive). In a tight build order, this generally means that you start your 3rd around the time the 4th or 5th phoenix is popping out, you should have a MsC/3-5 sentries/1 immortal/a few zealots. As for scouting...between hallucination scouts and phoenix, there is NO WAY you can't scout their tech. Either way, though, you should automatically build a robotics bay while taking your 3rd so that you can get a colossus out in time for a hydra push or a swarm host contain. If you opponent goes muta/corruptor, just cancel the bay or just forgo colossus in favor of a second stargate + fleet beacon. Check out this guide for some more details and an exact build order: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420782 Let's say that your opponent goes muta, and you throw down the fleet beacon + 2nd stargate. When he transitions to corruptor do you start making voids or is it better to go for archon/templar? | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 22 2013 14:33 TarLaPaN wrote: Let's say that your opponent goes muta, and you throw down the fleet beacon + 2nd stargate. When he transitions to corruptor do you start making voids or is it better to go for archon/templar? Unless you're super far ahead and you take zero damage from the muta harass, archon/templar is going to be a better tech choice. I would say the primary reason for this is that generally against muta harass, you're pretty mineral starved making cannons and stalkers, and templar are a good gas dump and are also incredible against mutas and corruptors (and pretty much all zerg units). | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On July 22 2013 11:34 SC2John wrote: Hey, been playing a lot of stargate PvZ in HotS (for obvious reasons) and playing around with oracle openers a lot. I feel like I've yet to see an oracle opening in a high profile game. Not just a single oracle for hopefully some damage, but an oracle opening into a macro play (kind of like Rain's oracle PvT). Have I missed this or is there a really good oracle game or games floating around out there? Sidenote: if anyone has experience with oracle openers in PvZ, I'd like to hear thoughts on it in terms of strengths, weaknesses, playstyle, etc. Meh, zergs always get blind spores when they think you are teching so opening oracle is super risky and not really worth it. I figure if you go gateway aggression behind it you can open up some more possibilities for damage, but at that point you might as well go phoenix imo. On July 22 2013 14:33 TarLaPaN wrote: Let's say that your opponent goes muta, and you throw down the fleet beacon + 2nd stargate. When he transitions to corruptor do you start making voids or is it better to go for archon/templar? Archon/Templar, because if you go ground he will have wasted tons of resources in corruptors; if you go void ray and you aren't miles ahead he can just outproduce them and amove you. Having a strong ground force can allow you to move more freely on the map (since zealot/archon shits on zerglings), so you can kinda force his mutas to be more defensive rather than harassing. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On July 22 2013 08:08 learning88 wrote: Oh awesome. Thanks. She's in Bronze/Silver for 1v1 I think but she mostly plays 2v2 with me and she wants to branch out so she can hold her own on 1v1. She's not like completely new but I don't think she understands game flow and the order of how things should go (not just the BO aspect but what she has to do early-, mid-, and late-game). np...just tell her to ask either on b.net flatline.776 or post a comment on the yt channel and i'll get back when i can if she has any questions | ||
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pressurechief
4 Posts
I'm a silver league player usually playing customs against friends. I have a PvT replay that I played, and I would want to get some generall advice on what to improve. Obviously there are a lot of stuff, but just some major things would be nice. PvT: http://drop.sc/350397 In PvT I use a build I found here on TL, fast warp prism harass with templar archives tech into third(deviated build from a sOs game that someone wrote). I don't really nail the timings yet but I'm getting there. I usually don't scout because I feel I can defend most attacks and I can't really macro at the same time. Anyways, harass was a success, making him pull back his army, lost a lot of macro here but got my third up. Should have gotten my second forge sooner and start chronoing upgrades better, although I had the lead the whole game. The game slowed down a bit, I felt I could have harassad more as he moved out but I got around 35 scv kills in the game so it is fine. After he took down my third at 20min(again) I felt I was falling apart and couldn't keep up, tried to double expand to third/fourth but couldn't hold. Tried to go for double colossus production but I was too far behind anyways at that point. I knew he was on four bases so I just made an army with what I got and attacked, there wasn't really much hope left. Improvements that are to me the most important: - Keep up the macro a bit better. Specially upgrades and warping in units as needed. - Make 2-3 more observers/pylons on the map for vision, which leads us to army positioning. I lost my third just because I didn't see his army coming on the left side and sniping my third, I feel I could have easily defended it and thus being in a better spot for the later game. - Generally better scouting as apm allows. Because I play against friends they tend to play in a standard way each game. Although I feel in ladder/customs that it is usually enough at my level to scout comp/tech with my first observer as it is quite early in this build. Sorry for the bad grammar, english isn't my first language. Thanks | ||
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buttcoin
3 Posts
I'm asking for builds that aren't micro-intensive because I'm a metal-league player. I'd also like to avoid doing things that are just bad and unsound (e.g. cannon rushing), even though they might work at my level. Thanks. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On July 23 2013 04:11 pressurechief wrote: Hello. I'm Pressurechief/Mono. I'm a silver league player usually playing customs against friends. I have a PvT replay that I played, and I would want to get some generall advice on what to improve. Obviously there are a lot of stuff, but just some major things would be nice. PvT: http://drop.sc/350397 In PvT I use a build I found here on TL, fast warp prism harass with templar archives tech into third(deviated build from a sOs game that someone wrote). I don't really nail the timings yet but I'm getting there. I usually don't scout because I feel I can defend most attacks and I can't really macro at the same time. Anyways, harass was a success, making him pull back his army, lost a lot of macro here but got my third up. Should have gotten my second forge sooner and start chronoing upgrades better, although I had the lead the whole game. The game slowed down a bit, I felt I could have harassad more as he moved out but I got around 35 scv kills in the game so it is fine. After he took down my third at 20min(again) I felt I was falling apart and couldn't keep up, tried to double expand to third/fourth but couldn't hold. Tried to go for double colossus production but I was too far behind anyways at that point. I knew he was on four bases so I just made an army with what I got and attacked, there wasn't really much hope left. Improvements that are to me the most important: - Keep up the macro a bit better. Specially upgrades and warping in units as needed. - Make 2-3 more observers/pylons on the map for vision, which leads us to army positioning. I lost my third just because I didn't see his army coming on the left side and sniping my third, I feel I could have easily defended it and thus being in a better spot for the later game. - Generally better scouting as apm allows. Because I play against friends they tend to play in a standard way each game. Although I feel in ladder/customs that it is usually enough at my level to scout comp/tech with my first observer as it is quite early in this build. Sorry for the bad grammar, english isn't my first language. Thanks Silver player even against master player, wat? I'll get to the parts you mention first Keep up the macro a bit better. Specially upgrades and warping in units as needed. True, after i think 0-2 you start neglecting upgrades hard, and your macro was generally not too great. But more essentially, there's more to macro than just warping in units at the right time, on 2 base you went for 7 Gates, then on 3 Base economy... still 7 gates! (just one more robo). So even with amazing macro it shouldnt be possible to keep your money down. This I think is the thing you should fix first, simply because it's very easy to do =) - Make 2-3 more observers/pylons on the map for vision, which leads us to army positioning. I lost my third just because I didn't see his army coming on the left side and sniping my third, I feel I could have easily defended it and thus being in a better spot for the later game. It's not just about building more observers, it's about using those that you have properly. For example the one that was patrolling - it covered one of 4 possible pathways, if you had two observers one close to your 3rd and one to the natural, they would help you see every direct attack route. The observer at his natural was good, the one covering drop pathway was good, although personally I would even prioritize the one to the direct route to the one spotting for drops, so if you had repositioned that one and the one on patrol you would have been safe if you have MSC and some units to defend in case of drop. Or build 4th observer when youre on 3 base and be 100% secure. Or use the one at the natural and try to follow his army around without getting killed. Or use spotter pylon instead of observer, but: There was also one peculiar incident where a new spotter pylon gets killed before it's done, you move your army to protect your 3rd, he scans to see whats there.... and you run away out of the scan range and let your 3rd get killed for free O_o I know its uncomfortable to get your army scanned, but when you KNOW where his army is, why would you go into the opposite direction of where it is? The reason he scanned was to see if he can take the base or your army down... he couldnt, until you moved away. - Generally better scouting as apm allows. Because I play against friends they tend to play in a standard way each game. Although I feel in ladder/customs that it is usually enough at my level to scout comp/tech with my first observer as it is quite early in this build. If you know how he plays you also should know when its safe to build 3rd, in this game you could have built it quite a bit earlier, but you played blind and never knew when he took his. After all the great eco damage you did even if your 3rd hadnt died it would have been pretty even eco wise, he would have had ~9 workers less than you but triple orbital mules to make up for that. The lack of knowledge what hes doing starts with , you go for stalker but you just let it sit at your natural. Why not go to your opponents base to have some kind of idea of what hes doing. If youre afraid of reaper your MSC wouldve been there. Or send both and in this game I think you could have done a lot of damage. But as it went you were behind from the start, letting him sit there with his very economic build, his CC was done when you started your nexus. If you know how your opponent plays, then maybe dont go for an opening that puts you behind against it. (Although I do recommend always going for the same build until youre masters, but yeah if you use this one use the units you have, especially against someone who plays like this) Also useful scouting unit: Hallucinations, use them to scout for either army positioning (and upgrades if youre fast enough, but thats easier with observers) or to scout his main for his tech buildings Now to the important points that you did not mention: A) Maynarding your probes. When your 3rd is done the first thing you do is send all probes mining minerals at your old bases that are more than 16 to your new base. So in this case 8 probes from the natural straight to your 3rd, instead you have 24/24 probes mining minerals at your natural and are undersaturated at your 3rd. B) Your micro, more specifically your HTs. At one point Terran was about to attack, despite the economic hits you took I was thinking that protoss was gonna crush the attack. You were both 2/1 upgrades and even though because of bad macro and bad eco you had wayy less units, his army composition was awful, not a single ghosts against like 4 high energy Templars. What happened was you casted I think one huge storm, and then 3 HTs with energy just sat there not doing anythign... until you merge them into archons instead of letting them cast storm first and I go wtf :D In your last engagement you were also very slow on the storms Yeah thats about it I think, overall your strategy is fine, just try to take your 3rd earlier as long as you think you can (otherwise you might as well just do the chargelot archon 2 base all in version instead). This certainly isnt what Silver lvl is supposed to look like ^^ Maybe think about getting a faster 2nd forge, it's what I would do at least. But yeah dont try to change everything, just fine tune everything, maybe focus on improving one thing at a time. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On July 23 2013 06:21 buttcoin wrote: All-ins were discussed generally in the original post, but I have a more specific question. What are some effective and relatively easy to execute 1 base all-ins (or cheeses) for Protoss in each matchup? I managed to find a 1-base 3-gate allin for PvP here, but it seems pretty micro intensive. I was hoping that someone could point me to other builds and possibly learning resources like VODs, replays, or timings. I'm asking for builds that aren't micro-intensive because I'm a metal-league player. I'd also like to avoid doing things that are just bad and unsound (e.g. cannon rushing), even though they might work at my level. Thanks. 1 Base all ins means there is very little macro, yet you want something that also isnt micro intensive, so then youre left with not doing anything :p Which might still work up to some point but if you dont want anything thats "bad" and only want something that will still work at a high level then no. (Also whats so horrible about cannon rushing, look how well gaulzi is doing ^^) PvT 1 base Blink stalker is pretty strong but its certainly micro intensive. Oracle +gateway all in would also be decent but also not that easy micro wise. Easiest thing to do would be 4 Gate. PvZ 1 base sucks, maybe that super old immortal build still works i dont know. Maybe cannon rush? :p Although while cheese i wouldnt call that all in. PvP I think teoita had a post about several 1 base builds not too long ago. Something simple that can get you easy wins on your level would be DT rush -> archon zealot bust follow up. But if you wanna improve I dont know why you would ask for 1 base all in that also doesnt require micro ^^ | ||
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buttcoin
3 Posts
The OP has a lot of good information on PvZ all-ins (BOs, replays, etc) but nothing on PvT or PvP besides just the name. Could you direct me towards some build orders, replays, or VODs for all-ins on these matchups? I realize there are many of them now, so just info on the few you think are most effective would be great. Thanks again. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On July 23 2013 10:02 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: What are the signs of a 4-gate for HotS? I often see players now have 2 gases for their MSC, so it's harder for me to tell if I can safely fast expand or not before their stalker forces me out of the base. For this very reason you will see many korean protoss make a sentry as their first or second gateway production and use a hallucinated phoenix to scout before deciding on anything concrete. | ||
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