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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
United States4883 Posts
On July 17 2013 09:42 ant885 wrote:
Hey, I have a couple PvZ questions
1) It seems to me there's no real "standard" macro PvZ build most pros use, from what I've seen the koreans kind of all have their own style (but maybe I'm wrong). Is there like a general standard macro build employed by toss players - i.e something like the equivalent of 3cc double ebay into bio mine for TvZ (if so any matches to watch would be appreciated)
2) Is there a general consensus on FFE vs GW expand? I'm kind of under the impression (Again perhaps I'm wrong) that FFE is superior if the zerg reacts properly to your gw expand, but the nice thing about gw expands is they often result in the zerg making mistake - does this seem pretty correct or is it just a stylistic thing?
- I know the op address this but I feel it's a bit dated, as it seems closer to 50/50 for the openings I've seen recently
many thanks
1) While most players have variations and different styles, most players are playing with either a) stargate play into colossus/blink (Rain, most kespa players) b) stargate into really fast 3 bases + void rays (Alicia, CranK), or c) lots of gateway aggression, adding in some immortals and colossus (Naniwa especially).
2) FFE vs. gate expands are kind of map dependent. There are definitely some maps that support FFE better and some that favor gate expands. Other than that, there are a few exceptions, like Neo Planet S that seem to favor neither; in these cases, it's mostly up to how you want to play stylistically. I would say, at this point, neither is hands down better than the other.
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I main zerg, but have been enjoying tooling around playing some Toss a little. I have been doing just a non serious build of 3 stalker rush into light 3 gate pressure recall while expanding into an all in 2 base +2+2 colo 5 gateway timing and it got me thinking.
How do you handle protoss mineral saturation when doing 2 base all ins differently then 3 base saturation in a macro game. I know its a semi vague question but im confused if i should handle it in a more zerg manner and get to 16/24 base, or is there times as toss where more than 16 probes on minerals is a good idea?
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Italy12248 Posts
If you're 2basing you should have 38 probes on minerals, 12 on gas and one for proxy pylons.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 17 2013 21:57 Sated wrote:I usually have 16 on each mineral line. For example, in this guide Hellokitty suggests that you should only have 22 Probes at each base (6 on gas, 16 on minerals), and if that's enough to support 7 Gate Stalker production then I don't know why you'd need more (unless you were intending to reinforce from >7 Gateways or something).
I believe the 3 extra probes are mining on the far-away mineral patches, which can support up to 3 probes without any lost mining efficiency. In other words, optimal mining is ACTUALLY slightly higher than 16. But usually I see that number as 18 per base and not 19....
So...I think we're all a fair bit lost on this issue hahahaha.
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Italy12248 Posts
Yeah the extra probes aren't really worth it. You want 38 probes for 2gas allins like 7gate and 44 for 4gas allins like Soultrains.
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I need big time help with PvZ. I'm really lost when I see a gas first build... I mostly expect some ling rush or baneling bust, but if I see them expand after gas then I'm really confused as to what to expect. Any info as to what to expect based on scouting as such? :/
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On July 18 2013 01:30 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
I need big time help with PvZ. I'm really lost when I see a gas first build... I mostly expect some ling rush or baneling bust, but if I see them expand after gas then I'm really confused as to what to expect. Any info as to what to expect based on scouting as such? :/
It depends on the situation. If the zerg does go gas first you have to remember two things:
First that if he went gas first you have some time before you have to get out, so you should get to see how much gas he mines, does he stop at 100? Does he leave only 1 on gas. if he takes them all out, you can expect speed and that is all.
Second dont forget that it is okay to be less economical, because the zerg is sacrificing economy too! After you finish a game that you felt really uncomfortable in, open up the replay and see if you were justified in that feeling. You might feel better afterwards. A lot of getting good at PvZ is about being confident in your 'feelings' about how the game is going based on how many lings they have built, or any queens you've picked off, how long you've left them alone etc etc. This stuff mostly comes from experience and checking your own replays.
I hope this helped, if you want more specific stuff you could post a replay for me to check?
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In theory, how to i defend a 3gate void ray all inn? In both games i faced this they made 3 voids and then just a-moved. I'm at work so can't provide a replay at the moment, but lost to it 2 times yesterday.
Is it possible to go robo, expand and defend this?
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How do you guys bind your Warpgate? I want to put both warpgates and building gateways on a keybind, so I can see the cooldown, but I had no luck so far.
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On July 19 2013 21:12 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 21:00 Kinon wrote:
How do you guys bind your Warpgate? I want to put both warpgates and building gateways on a keybind, so I can see the cooldown, but I had no luck so far. I've always done 4 Nexuses, 5 Warpgates/Gateways, 6 Robotics Facility, 7 Stargate. You can see the cooldown on Warpgates by tapping 5, and you can see if any Gateways need tranforming at the same time. I do not use the built-in Warpgate (default: W) key.
Isn't 7 too far out to reach? Also, have you rebinded W to something else?
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Hi guys, I'm a new player to the RTS genre completely, having started 3 days ago. I've done my fair bit of research and right now I'm just trying to get one opening down which is the 1 gate FE opening, and a player who was in the grandmaster league told me that since I'm new I should focus on only stalkers, collossus, sentries and zealots and archons as my army composition.
So this question goes out to all the kind hearted people out there, is there a particular order I should follow to build after the early game fast expansion in order to get a strong macro based gamestyle going with an army consisting of mainly stalkers, collusus, archons and sentries and zealots?
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On July 20 2013 00:35 lovecourt wrote:
Hi guys, I'm a new player to the RTS genre completely, having started 3 days ago. I've done my fair bit of research and right now I'm just trying to get one opening down which is the 1 gate FE opening, and a player who was in the grandmaster league told me that since I'm new I should focus on only stalkers, collossus, sentries and zealots and archons as my army composition.
So this question goes out to all the kind hearted people out there, is there a particular order I should follow to build after the early game fast expansion in order to get a strong macro based gamestyle going with an army consisting of mainly stalkers, collusus, archons and sentries and zealots?
Usually for a Gate FE, you can add gateways early to open up warpgate aggression, which would be:
Following this building composition: 1 Gateway, 2 Nexi, 1 Cybernetics Core.
2-3 Extra Gateways -> Second Gas -> Robotics Facility, Forge -> 3rd and 4th Gasses -> Colossus Tech (Robotics Bay) -> Twilight Council and Extra Gateways up to 6-8.
A more economic building order would be moving the initial 2-3 Gateways till after the Robotics Factility and Forge while you're taking your 3rd and 4th Gasses. The safer\more aggressive option (Early Gateways) delays tech in order to be able to field more units.
Normally, Protoss will begin take a third before they add Colossus Tech, but if you just started playing, I would attempt to secure it after you've gotten your 6-8 Gateways up.
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On July 20 2013 00:59 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:35 lovecourt wrote:
Hi guys, I'm a new player to the RTS genre completely, having started 3 days ago. I've done my fair bit of research and right now I'm just trying to get one opening down which is the 1 gate FE opening, and a player who was in the grandmaster league told me that since I'm new I should focus on only stalkers, collossus, sentries and zealots and archons as my army composition.
So this question goes out to all the kind hearted people out there, is there a particular order I should follow to build after the early game fast expansion in order to get a strong macro based gamestyle going with an army consisting of mainly stalkers, collusus, archons and sentries and zealots? Usually for a Gate FE, you can add gateways early to open up warpgate aggression, which would be: Following this building composition: 1 Gateway, 2 Nexi, 1 Cybernetics Core. 2-3 Extra Gateways -> Second Gas -> Robotics Facility, Forge -> 3rd and 4th Gasses -> Colossus Tech (Robotics Bay) -> Twilight Council and Extra Gateways up to 6-8. A more economic building order would be moving the initial 2-3 Gateways till after the Robotics Factility and Forge while you're taking your 3rd and 4th Gasses. The safer\more aggressive option (Early Gateways) delays tech in order to be able to field more units. Normally, Protoss will begin take a third before they add Colossus Tech, but if you just started playing, I would attempt to secure it after you've gotten your 6-8 Gateways up.
Thank you so much for replying but i'd like to refine it a little here.
Basically I want to take
1) 3 gateways ( safer ) [after cybernetics and second base]
2) Second gas
3) Robotics ( observers )
4) Forge ( +1 attack upgrade )
5) Gasses on natural
6) robotics bay
7) Get collossus (3)
8) twilight council
9) 6 more gateways
10) 3rd base
I got that down, now I just want to know if I should ever have to build a secondary forge and when should I do that?
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Italy12248 Posts
Assuming we're talking PvT here, i'd go
1) Second gas and robo before gates
2) Second forge when the terran tanks his third base.
Don't bother with a second forge in PvP and PvZ; go robo before gates in PvP as well.
Also, in the future please ask more specific questions. There's already plenty of examples of builds in the OP.
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Oh, I assumed PvZ xD
While 1-Gate Expands seem very similar in different match-ups on paper, there are definately very important differences that you need to pay attention to. Also have your friend explained you more than unit composition?
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EPT
