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On July 12 2013 22:49 barbaTossa wrote: I started playing again ~a week ago and managed to get back to gold league. In WoL i was plat once and I would like to get there again. Can someone take a look at this PvT and tell me where I need to improve the most? http://drop.sc/348612 (hope this works, never done it before)
It feels like I heavily miscontrol my deathball and take horrible engagements. I basically a-move > control Stalker > control Templar Things I recognized I did wrong: should've held watch towers much earlier and at all times, a lot more gates a lot earlier after the initial 5, no second robo, no aggressive pylons nor warpins, forgot to add second forge, no guardian shield, no forcefields, charge before blink I think I could have won the game if I had waited for my templar and a pylon with the counterattack after I defended his first push. After that everything fell apart.
I generally tend to lose many Nexi in this match up due to insufficent map vision and because I position my army incorrectly. Especially early game I'm scared to take an egagement. My army isn't positioned to defend my natural but the ramp to my main. I somehow seem to have the vision of a Terran roflstimming all over my army.
Some general questions:
Should I even bother with shield upgrades after armour/attack or is it simply not worth it because of emps? How many archons should I have in my army? Same problem: EMP? How many gates should I aim for at max? 15? When should I add a second Robo? Is it worth adding a third? How do I micro my probes against a reaper until my stalker/msc are out? (as in the replay)
thanks for the help
The way you analyse yourself it sounds like your a smart guy who thinks a good amount about the game, on the other hand the main problem with your play is at the core - your macro and your micro. the standard Terran medivac push comes after 10 minutes. at 11:30 - so quite a bit after those first pushes might arrive your unit count is: 1MSC, 1 Colossus, 3 Stalkers, 2 Sentries,
.. and 4 observers you have had those 3 stalkers since before your warpgate finishes, since 6:50 so thats 4 minutes and 40 seconds between 6:50 and 11:30 and your only added gateway units are two sentries!
I really wouldnt recommend those gateway delying builds that you see some progamers use to any player below master league, you need to be amazing at defense and can never miss any warp ins when going for this kind of style that relies so heavily on the MSC Nexus cannon. Instead I would suggest adding gateways right after your robo facility, and then going for forge / robo bay. But in those cases as well: use those warp gates, build units!!
And if you wanna go for lots of observers, dont even go for a normal colossus build. Either go for 1 colossus into storm, or skip them completely and go for sth like chargelot archon HT, or go for a proper colossus build. That means not building 4 observers while only having a single colossus out for a long time.
Like you realized yourself, your map awareness is a problem. Imo PvT is the protoss matchup where map awareness is the most crucial. If you have many observers, position them properly, optimal is to have one near his base / near his army, one or two to drop for scouts, and, this one is very important and would have helped you a lot - one (or two) near your base at the place that he will be attacking from. Nothing hurts more than losing a nexus for free because you were out of position. Or like in your game taking a really bad engagement because your units werent in a good position.
At one point he just ran into your natural while your army was sitting clumped up between natural and 3rd. He had all his units nicely spread out, attacking from all angles, yours was all in one clump. Before all engagements, try to spread out and build a big concave. If you're the one attacking dont use the main screen to attack, use your minimap, do the attack command to a place that is in the direction you wanna attack but is far away enough that your units will not clump up. (If youre defending you dont need to do this, if you have just spread the units before the engagement and then a click behind his army when he runs into yours, your arc will be superior to his, defenders advantage is pretty big in that sense.) Use force fields. You already listed this as one of your mistakes but you really took particularly unnecessary damage because you just completely neglected your sentries. At one point you just walk into his 3rd and kill it. For lots of players the very first thing they would have done when walking into that 3rd would be to force field the choke to his natural a)preventing his army to defend and b) preventing the SCVs to escape the slaughter.
Not only did you not do this super easy preemptive measure, but you also just let him walk down and kill your army when you could have taken a good engagement by cutting his army in half with forcefields.
Honestly in general battle micro is way simpler for Protoss than it is for Terran. Spreading your units to form a concave and then attack using the minimap and then just letting your army do its thing is already good enough to get to master lvl. Pressing G for guardian shield before the engagement, blinking stalkers to kill vikings (seperate hotkey group!), sending chargelots back to the rest of your army if the MMM force kites too far away from your colossi (hence your chargelots just get owned while your colossi try to chase) and spreading your high templars as well as using single templars on different locations to try to storm whenever you can are additional skills that are important later on.
I don't even feel like answering your questions because they are so unimportant compared to improving your macro and your micro. Which you do by practicing the opening (you can do this vs the computer if you want) and by using the tips i gave you in regards to micro.
Should I even bother with shield upgrades after armour/attack or is it simply not worth it because of emps?
Yes absolutely, always. If you spread your units properly EMPs aren't gonna hit everything, especially since up to a good master lvl people rarely ever go for the mass ghost+vikings style.
How many archons should I have in my army? Same problem: EMP?
Despite EMP archons are a very strong unit in PvT. They are very buff, they dont get slowed by marauders, and they do good splash damage, which isnt just good vs MMM but can also kill vikings super fast, especially when terrans arent that amazing at army control. When to build how many depends on your build.. If you go for storm you only start building archons after you feel that you have enough Templars for storm (and of course you often morph low energy Templars after they casted their spells) There are some builds, like double forge colossus where you get templar archive but you dont get storm and just get 2-4 archons. Theres also the Chargelot Archon 7 gate all in, or old school chargelot archon macro style. But I think youre talking about the late game, in which case there is no definite answer. It often depends on your mineral / gas ratio. When youre low on mins and have lots of gas then obviously building lots of archons is a good choice. In general just build them when you feel like you can afford them. Do not not (yes two not's) build them only cause youre scared of EMPs, unless you know that he really has a scary amount of ghosts.
There isn't really a max. If your army supply is maxed and you have a good amount of ressources than just build a shitload of gateways, the more the better because of the instant way in which warp gate works. This way you can either instantly resupply your army in a big fight, or you send in chargelots to harass his bases while his army is distracted with your main army. (Recently ive seen most progamers prefer to do the latter, which makes sense as long as youre sure youre not dying in the main fight) That's actually another battle micro tip kind of: Always fight near a (proxy) pylon.
When should I add a second Robo? Is it worth adding a third?
Unless youre doing some kind of 2x robo all in simply get it after you have sufficient amounts of Templars. Yes it is worth getting a third, personally I even usually add the 2nd and the 3rd at the same time. This is because in late game scenarios after big fights, you want new colossi out asap, being able to build 3 at a time is much better than only being able to build 2 at a time.
How do I micro my probes against a reaper until my stalker/msc are out? (as in the replay)
Biggest mistake here was that you delayed your MSC way too long. You even scouted the reaper with your probe but you still just started two new probes while cancelling your zealot. If youre relying on the MSC for defense then get it asap, and especially dont keep building probes when youre already saturated (with 16/24 probes at the mineral lines)
Actually that reminds me there's one more important thing to talk about - your probe saturation, you build way too many. I think at one point you have 23/24 at one base and like 24/24 at your other. If terran is doing a push then you have to cut probes, just focus on getting units out and defending while being 16/24 at each of your two bases. If he is just going for macro without a scary push then sure keep building probes, but also take your 3rd, or else the probes are just a waste.
so, key points: solid build order, appropriate probe saturation, macro, micro, observer positioning. Work on those, starting with getting down a good build order, your macro will naturally improve with that, while seeing an army coming before it attacks due to observer positioning will also help you prepare to have better army positioning +battle micro.
The answer I hoped for :O Gifted one month TL+ for your efforts.
I'm not really into changing up the buildorder too much because I spent some time ripping it off Vods and practicing it. I just accept that I'll lose if I execute it worse than my opponent his. I'll think about adding a second gateway together with the forge though. So key points for me are: crisp(er) execution, focus on keeping warpgate(s) on cooldown and robo building stuff, get a 3rd at a decent time or stop probe production and obersver positioning. Thanks a lot for the dearly needed points on positioning and micro. Hope I can put it into practice. I will prioritize spreading out units in a defensive position. And try not to forget my Sentrys :/
I know these doesn't matter and I should propably 7gate all-in every game on my level to get a feel for warpgates and seperate the game into an economy and attack phase but I got some more questions:
1. I've seen pros take the base beneath their natural as their third against on Akilon Wastes. Why? Should I go for it, too? 2. When should I start adding Zealots over Stalkers in the early game? I want to end up with 8, so what usually happens is I warp-in all 8 before I get any Zealots. Is this to late? And are 8 Stalkers enough for a 3 Collosus/range build? 3. Assuming I went for 3 Stalkers before Warpgate, then 2 Sentrys, a Collosus and a Zealot. I usually keep my Stalkers in the main. But without them my army feels too weak to take an engagement. Should I just keep them in one clump? 4. Should I position my army at the ramp or hug the Nexus to defend my natural? As I said, I tend to keep my army on the high ground because it feels so fragile. 5. I know Immortals are great against marauders yet no pro ever incorporates them. I guess that's because where I play just build a lot more marauders. When and how many should I add to my army with a 3 Collosus/Range into Templar build (assuming I use the time before the bay finishes for some Observers)? 6. (awkward one) I hotkey my Nexi to 5 my Robo to 6 and my Warpgates to W. Army is at 2/3/4. My left hand is over asdf or 234. If I do a "macro cycle": do I press 5 and 6 with my index finger or do I move my entire hand? What? I said it was awkward!
thanks for the help
1) The reason for this is to simply decrease the amount of locations you can be dropped from. By taking your third above your natural, you can add a cannon or a templar at the corner of your third, and your natural will be much safer from drops.
2) You will need zealots to buffer for your colossus when the terran pressures. Stalkers are good against unstimmed marines but actually terrible in a straight up fight against 10min bio pushes. If you are able to identify your opponent is going for a widow mine drop, then you may want to get 2 stalkers to kill the mines from afar. Aside from that however, my first few units from my gateway are a stalker to fend off reapers, then a sentry to begin gathering energy, then either another stalker or another sentry depending on what I scout with my MSC. So to answer your question, yes you definately need zealots before warping in 8 stalkers. I think 8 can be enough late game, but personally I like to get 12 stalkers just so I can kill the vikings faster.
3)Are you putting pressure on with the 3 stalkers? If not, I think its better to get the 2 sentries out earlier so they can begin gathering energy for hallucination etc. If you feel you are spreading your army too thin just use photon overcharge on your main and have the rest of your units to protect the natural.
4)I'm not sure I understand the question but I believe it would be better to fight in front of the nexus instead of clumping up.
5)Immortals are good against mech, I don't usually get that many against standard bio play but I suppose a good time to get them would be after you have 4-5 colossi and templar on the field. Or if your opponent is going unusually marauder heavy.
6)Index finger. What do you use for the "1" key?
@Toko You could also rebind the W key to a control group and just use that for warpgates. I actually tried doing that for a while, but did not find enough benefits to using it as opposed to the default warpgate style. In the late game there is just so much going on, I found out that spending my spare time adding gateways to a control group was just too much
I have a bunch of questions that I hope a high diamond player with better PvP or a master's player can address. I am a mid to high diamond Protoss player who is having a ton of trouble in PvP. I also have a brief PvT question at the end.
I'd make a thread for this but it's not really any specific games I am losing, it's all of them. I have an abysmal winrate in the matchup and I need to brush up on some theory I think (I macro just as well in PvP as I do in my PvZ and PvT which are much more solid).
The build that I have been trying to use lately is:
- Is this build perfectly viable on all maps? - Is it critically weak to one type of Protoss opener (eg stargate play) and was a meta play from Nani against blink play, or does it work well against most PvP openers? I feel it does very well against DTs, and with good control should counter any blink all-in. - Would you recommend either incorporating a probe scout into this build, or choosing a PvP build that has one? Note that I do scout after my 13 gateway to poke around for proxy gates in my main base or natural, but after that there is no scout until halluc. - Are there any big adjustments I should make based on my halluc Phoenix scout? How should I be moving towards the mid game?
Now, here's where we get to my problem. This section is more important for me then above. I don't know what the hell I am doing in PvP. Namely, I have a lot, lot, lot of confusion about compositions in PvP and how they preform against one another, and I don't know the meta to any degree near how well I know PvZ and PvT.
Why do we not see colossus in as many professional games anymore? What has changed in hots to make immortal archon the preferred style instead (at least I see it a lot more)? What is the "money" composition in PvP now, or does it depend on your opponent?
How do I deal with Void Rays off of a Robotics opening? What about Tempests? Will I have archon/storm in time relying on photon overcharge and stalkers until then?
And finally, what are some timings I can go attack off of an opening like this. I expect to have an econ advantage against a lot of slower expanding builds. How can I punish my opponent for this?
Hopefully you guys can shed some light. I am so clueless in PvP right now.
Oh, and brief Terran question:
If I am opening a passive safe FE build like this one (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=410130), when should I take my third base? And do I take it with the intent of cancelling if my opponent two base allins, but I can hold off harassment if he took a third? Note that this is assuming vs bio play, and that I usually produce three colossus with range before rapidly teching towards chargelot archon templar tech switch (due to vikings), so you have some idea of my comp.
On July 12 2013 22:49 barbaTossa wrote: I started playing again ~a week ago and managed to get back to gold league. In WoL i was plat once and I would like to get there again. Can someone take a look at this PvT and tell me where I need to improve the most? http://drop.sc/348612 (hope this works, never done it before)
It feels like I heavily miscontrol my deathball and take horrible engagements. I basically a-move > control Stalker > control Templar Things I recognized I did wrong: should've held watch towers much earlier and at all times, a lot more gates a lot earlier after the initial 5, no second robo, no aggressive pylons nor warpins, forgot to add second forge, no guardian shield, no forcefields, charge before blink I think I could have won the game if I had waited for my templar and a pylon with the counterattack after I defended his first push. After that everything fell apart.
I generally tend to lose many Nexi in this match up due to insufficent map vision and because I position my army incorrectly. Especially early game I'm scared to take an egagement. My army isn't positioned to defend my natural but the ramp to my main. I somehow seem to have the vision of a Terran roflstimming all over my army.
Some general questions:
Should I even bother with shield upgrades after armour/attack or is it simply not worth it because of emps? How many archons should I have in my army? Same problem: EMP? How many gates should I aim for at max? 15? When should I add a second Robo? Is it worth adding a third? How do I micro my probes against a reaper until my stalker/msc are out? (as in the replay)
thanks for the help
The way you analyse yourself it sounds like your a smart guy who thinks a good amount about the game, on the other hand the main problem with your play is at the core - your macro and your micro. the standard Terran medivac push comes after 10 minutes. at 11:30 - so quite a bit after those first pushes might arrive your unit count is: 1MSC, 1 Colossus, 3 Stalkers, 2 Sentries,
.. and 4 observers you have had those 3 stalkers since before your warpgate finishes, since 6:50 so thats 4 minutes and 40 seconds between 6:50 and 11:30 and your only added gateway units are two sentries!
I really wouldnt recommend those gateway delying builds that you see some progamers use to any player below master league, you need to be amazing at defense and can never miss any warp ins when going for this kind of style that relies so heavily on the MSC Nexus cannon. Instead I would suggest adding gateways right after your robo facility, and then going for forge / robo bay. But in those cases as well: use those warp gates, build units!!
And if you wanna go for lots of observers, dont even go for a normal colossus build. Either go for 1 colossus into storm, or skip them completely and go for sth like chargelot archon HT, or go for a proper colossus build. That means not building 4 observers while only having a single colossus out for a long time.
Like you realized yourself, your map awareness is a problem. Imo PvT is the protoss matchup where map awareness is the most crucial. If you have many observers, position them properly, optimal is to have one near his base / near his army, one or two to drop for scouts, and, this one is very important and would have helped you a lot - one (or two) near your base at the place that he will be attacking from. Nothing hurts more than losing a nexus for free because you were out of position. Or like in your game taking a really bad engagement because your units werent in a good position.
At one point he just ran into your natural while your army was sitting clumped up between natural and 3rd. He had all his units nicely spread out, attacking from all angles, yours was all in one clump. Before all engagements, try to spread out and build a big concave. If you're the one attacking dont use the main screen to attack, use your minimap, do the attack command to a place that is in the direction you wanna attack but is far away enough that your units will not clump up. (If youre defending you dont need to do this, if you have just spread the units before the engagement and then a click behind his army when he runs into yours, your arc will be superior to his, defenders advantage is pretty big in that sense.) Use force fields. You already listed this as one of your mistakes but you really took particularly unnecessary damage because you just completely neglected your sentries. At one point you just walk into his 3rd and kill it. For lots of players the very first thing they would have done when walking into that 3rd would be to force field the choke to his natural a)preventing his army to defend and b) preventing the SCVs to escape the slaughter.
Not only did you not do this super easy preemptive measure, but you also just let him walk down and kill your army when you could have taken a good engagement by cutting his army in half with forcefields.
Honestly in general battle micro is way simpler for Protoss than it is for Terran. Spreading your units to form a concave and then attack using the minimap and then just letting your army do its thing is already good enough to get to master lvl. Pressing G for guardian shield before the engagement, blinking stalkers to kill vikings (seperate hotkey group!), sending chargelots back to the rest of your army if the MMM force kites too far away from your colossi (hence your chargelots just get owned while your colossi try to chase) and spreading your high templars as well as using single templars on different locations to try to storm whenever you can are additional skills that are important later on.
I don't even feel like answering your questions because they are so unimportant compared to improving your macro and your micro. Which you do by practicing the opening (you can do this vs the computer if you want) and by using the tips i gave you in regards to micro.
Should I even bother with shield upgrades after armour/attack or is it simply not worth it because of emps?
Yes absolutely, always. If you spread your units properly EMPs aren't gonna hit everything, especially since up to a good master lvl people rarely ever go for the mass ghost+vikings style.
How many archons should I have in my army? Same problem: EMP?
Despite EMP archons are a very strong unit in PvT. They are very buff, they dont get slowed by marauders, and they do good splash damage, which isnt just good vs MMM but can also kill vikings super fast, especially when terrans arent that amazing at army control. When to build how many depends on your build.. If you go for storm you only start building archons after you feel that you have enough Templars for storm (and of course you often morph low energy Templars after they casted their spells) There are some builds, like double forge colossus where you get templar archive but you dont get storm and just get 2-4 archons. Theres also the Chargelot Archon 7 gate all in, or old school chargelot archon macro style. But I think youre talking about the late game, in which case there is no definite answer. It often depends on your mineral / gas ratio. When youre low on mins and have lots of gas then obviously building lots of archons is a good choice. In general just build them when you feel like you can afford them. Do not not (yes two not's) build them only cause youre scared of EMPs, unless you know that he really has a scary amount of ghosts.
There isn't really a max. If your army supply is maxed and you have a good amount of ressources than just build a shitload of gateways, the more the better because of the instant way in which warp gate works. This way you can either instantly resupply your army in a big fight, or you send in chargelots to harass his bases while his army is distracted with your main army. (Recently ive seen most progamers prefer to do the latter, which makes sense as long as youre sure youre not dying in the main fight) That's actually another battle micro tip kind of: Always fight near a (proxy) pylon.
When should I add a second Robo? Is it worth adding a third?
Unless youre doing some kind of 2x robo all in simply get it after you have sufficient amounts of Templars. Yes it is worth getting a third, personally I even usually add the 2nd and the 3rd at the same time. This is because in late game scenarios after big fights, you want new colossi out asap, being able to build 3 at a time is much better than only being able to build 2 at a time.
How do I micro my probes against a reaper until my stalker/msc are out? (as in the replay)
Biggest mistake here was that you delayed your MSC way too long. You even scouted the reaper with your probe but you still just started two new probes while cancelling your zealot. If youre relying on the MSC for defense then get it asap, and especially dont keep building probes when youre already saturated (with 16/24 probes at the mineral lines)
Actually that reminds me there's one more important thing to talk about - your probe saturation, you build way too many. I think at one point you have 23/24 at one base and like 24/24 at your other. If terran is doing a push then you have to cut probes, just focus on getting units out and defending while being 16/24 at each of your two bases. If he is just going for macro without a scary push then sure keep building probes, but also take your 3rd, or else the probes are just a waste.
so, key points: solid build order, appropriate probe saturation, macro, micro, observer positioning. Work on those, starting with getting down a good build order, your macro will naturally improve with that, while seeing an army coming before it attacks due to observer positioning will also help you prepare to have better army positioning +battle micro.
The answer I hoped for :O Gifted one month TL+ for your efforts.
I'm not really into changing up the buildorder too much because I spent some time ripping it off Vods and practicing it. I just accept that I'll lose if I execute it worse than my opponent his. I'll think about adding a second gateway together with the forge though. So key points for me are: crisp(er) execution, focus on keeping warpgate(s) on cooldown and robo building stuff, get a 3rd at a decent time or stop probe production and obersver positioning. Thanks a lot for the dearly needed points on positioning and micro. Hope I can put it into practice. I will prioritize spreading out units in a defensive position. And try not to forget my Sentrys :/
I know these doesn't matter and I should propably 7gate all-in every game on my level to get a feel for warpgates and seperate the game into an economy and attack phase but I got some more questions:
1. I've seen pros take the base beneath their natural as their third against on Akilon Wastes. Why? Should I go for it, too? 2. When should I start adding Zealots over Stalkers in the early game? I want to end up with 8, so what usually happens is I warp-in all 8 before I get any Zealots. Is this to late? And are 8 Stalkers enough for a 3 Collosus/range build? 3. Assuming I went for 3 Stalkers before Warpgate, then 2 Sentrys, a Collosus and a Zealot. I usually keep my Stalkers in the main. But without them my army feels too weak to take an engagement. Should I just keep them in one clump? 4. Should I position my army at the ramp or hug the Nexus to defend my natural? As I said, I tend to keep my army on the high ground because it feels so fragile. 5. I know Immortals are great against marauders yet no pro ever incorporates them. I guess that's because where I play just build a lot more marauders. When and how many should I add to my army with a 3 Collosus/Range into Templar build (assuming I use the time before the bay finishes for some Observers)? 6. (awkward one) I hotkey my Nexi to 5 my Robo to 6 and my Warpgates to W. Army is at 2/3/4. My left hand is over asdf or 234. If I do a "macro cycle": do I press 5 and 6 with my index finger or do I move my entire hand? What? I said it was awkward!
thanks for the help
1) The reason for this is to simply decrease the amount of locations you can be dropped from. By taking your third above your natural, you can add a cannon or a templar at the corner of your third, and your natural will be much safer from drops.
2) You will need zealots to buffer for your colossus when the terran pressures. Stalkers are good against unstimmed marines but actually terrible in a straight up fight against 10min bio pushes. If you are able to identify your opponent is going for a widow mine drop, then you may want to get 2 stalkers to kill the mines from afar. Aside from that however, my first few units from my gateway are a stalker to fend off reapers, then a sentry to begin gathering energy, then either another stalker or another sentry depending on what I scout with my MSC. So to answer your question, yes you definately need zealots before warping in 8 stalkers. I think 8 can be enough late game, but personally I like to get 12 stalkers just so I can kill the vikings faster.
3)Are you putting pressure on with the 3 stalkers? If not, I think its better to get the 2 sentries out earlier so they can begin gathering energy for hallucination etc. If you feel you are spreading your army too thin just use photon overcharge on your main and have the rest of your units to protect the natural.
4)I'm not sure I understand the question but I believe it would be better to fight in front of the nexus instead of clumping up.
5)Immortals are good against mech, I don't usually get that many against standard bio play but I suppose a good time to get them would be after you have 4-5 colossi and templar on the field. Or if your opponent is going unusually marauder heavy.
6)Index finger. What do you use for the "1" key?
@Toko You could also rebind the W key to a control group and just use that for warpgates. I actually tried doing that for a while, but did not find enough benefits to using it as opposed to the default warpgate style. In the late game there is just so much going on, I found out that spending my spare time adding gateways to a control group was just too much
@6 ^ = msc 1 = scouting probe/phoenix/warp prism 2 = Stalkers 3 = everything 4 = High Templar I use 2 beacause it's muc h more comfortable to press a with the little finger.
@4 The question is: Should I fight at the ramp (army on top) or in range of the Nexus cannon when defending my natural?
@ 2&3 I usually get Sentries after I drop the Robotics Bay, Sentires cost 100 gas, Stalkers only 50 and I don't want to delay it. Also I don't want to rely on Sentrys too mcuh because I can't handle them reliably^^
Some more questions: I. When should I start keeping my msc with my army? It's common to keep it with the army in PvZ, do I ever do this in PvT? II. In WoL I played Creator Prime double forge, single Collossus without range into zarchon 3/3 timing. I stopped doing it because hellbats melt Zealots no matter how upgraded they are. Now I'm unsure when to attack. It was clear back then: never until 3/3. When should I attack with single forge, 3 Collosus into Storm? Never until I have a deathball and a bank to remax and switch between mass Collossus and ZArchon?
On July 12 2013 22:49 barbaTossa wrote: I started playing again ~a week ago and managed to get back to gold league. In WoL i was plat once and I would like to get there again. Can someone take a look at this PvT and tell me where I need to improve the most? http://drop.sc/348612 (hope this works, never done it before)
It feels like I heavily miscontrol my deathball and take horrible engagements. I basically a-move > control Stalker > control Templar Things I recognized I did wrong: should've held watch towers much earlier and at all times, a lot more gates a lot earlier after the initial 5, no second robo, no aggressive pylons nor warpins, forgot to add second forge, no guardian shield, no forcefields, charge before blink I think I could have won the game if I had waited for my templar and a pylon with the counterattack after I defended his first push. After that everything fell apart.
I generally tend to lose many Nexi in this match up due to insufficent map vision and because I position my army incorrectly. Especially early game I'm scared to take an egagement. My army isn't positioned to defend my natural but the ramp to my main. I somehow seem to have the vision of a Terran roflstimming all over my army.
Some general questions:
Should I even bother with shield upgrades after armour/attack or is it simply not worth it because of emps? How many archons should I have in my army? Same problem: EMP? How many gates should I aim for at max? 15? When should I add a second Robo? Is it worth adding a third? How do I micro my probes against a reaper until my stalker/msc are out? (as in the replay)
thanks for the help
The way you analyse yourself it sounds like your a smart guy who thinks a good amount about the game, on the other hand the main problem with your play is at the core - your macro and your micro. the standard Terran medivac push comes after 10 minutes. at 11:30 - so quite a bit after those first pushes might arrive your unit count is: 1MSC, 1 Colossus, 3 Stalkers, 2 Sentries,
.. and 4 observers you have had those 3 stalkers since before your warpgate finishes, since 6:50 so thats 4 minutes and 40 seconds between 6:50 and 11:30 and your only added gateway units are two sentries!
I really wouldnt recommend those gateway delying builds that you see some progamers use to any player below master league, you need to be amazing at defense and can never miss any warp ins when going for this kind of style that relies so heavily on the MSC Nexus cannon. Instead I would suggest adding gateways right after your robo facility, and then going for forge / robo bay. But in those cases as well: use those warp gates, build units!!
And if you wanna go for lots of observers, dont even go for a normal colossus build. Either go for 1 colossus into storm, or skip them completely and go for sth like chargelot archon HT, or go for a proper colossus build. That means not building 4 observers while only having a single colossus out for a long time.
Like you realized yourself, your map awareness is a problem. Imo PvT is the protoss matchup where map awareness is the most crucial. If you have many observers, position them properly, optimal is to have one near his base / near his army, one or two to drop for scouts, and, this one is very important and would have helped you a lot - one (or two) near your base at the place that he will be attacking from. Nothing hurts more than losing a nexus for free because you were out of position. Or like in your game taking a really bad engagement because your units werent in a good position.
At one point he just ran into your natural while your army was sitting clumped up between natural and 3rd. He had all his units nicely spread out, attacking from all angles, yours was all in one clump. Before all engagements, try to spread out and build a big concave. If you're the one attacking dont use the main screen to attack, use your minimap, do the attack command to a place that is in the direction you wanna attack but is far away enough that your units will not clump up. (If youre defending you dont need to do this, if you have just spread the units before the engagement and then a click behind his army when he runs into yours, your arc will be superior to his, defenders advantage is pretty big in that sense.) Use force fields. You already listed this as one of your mistakes but you really took particularly unnecessary damage because you just completely neglected your sentries. At one point you just walk into his 3rd and kill it. For lots of players the very first thing they would have done when walking into that 3rd would be to force field the choke to his natural a)preventing his army to defend and b) preventing the SCVs to escape the slaughter.
Not only did you not do this super easy preemptive measure, but you also just let him walk down and kill your army when you could have taken a good engagement by cutting his army in half with forcefields.
Honestly in general battle micro is way simpler for Protoss than it is for Terran. Spreading your units to form a concave and then attack using the minimap and then just letting your army do its thing is already good enough to get to master lvl. Pressing G for guardian shield before the engagement, blinking stalkers to kill vikings (seperate hotkey group!), sending chargelots back to the rest of your army if the MMM force kites too far away from your colossi (hence your chargelots just get owned while your colossi try to chase) and spreading your high templars as well as using single templars on different locations to try to storm whenever you can are additional skills that are important later on.
I don't even feel like answering your questions because they are so unimportant compared to improving your macro and your micro. Which you do by practicing the opening (you can do this vs the computer if you want) and by using the tips i gave you in regards to micro.
Should I even bother with shield upgrades after armour/attack or is it simply not worth it because of emps?
Yes absolutely, always. If you spread your units properly EMPs aren't gonna hit everything, especially since up to a good master lvl people rarely ever go for the mass ghost+vikings style.
How many archons should I have in my army? Same problem: EMP?
Despite EMP archons are a very strong unit in PvT. They are very buff, they dont get slowed by marauders, and they do good splash damage, which isnt just good vs MMM but can also kill vikings super fast, especially when terrans arent that amazing at army control. When to build how many depends on your build.. If you go for storm you only start building archons after you feel that you have enough Templars for storm (and of course you often morph low energy Templars after they casted their spells) There are some builds, like double forge colossus where you get templar archive but you dont get storm and just get 2-4 archons. Theres also the Chargelot Archon 7 gate all in, or old school chargelot archon macro style. But I think youre talking about the late game, in which case there is no definite answer. It often depends on your mineral / gas ratio. When youre low on mins and have lots of gas then obviously building lots of archons is a good choice. In general just build them when you feel like you can afford them. Do not not (yes two not's) build them only cause youre scared of EMPs, unless you know that he really has a scary amount of ghosts.
There isn't really a max. If your army supply is maxed and you have a good amount of ressources than just build a shitload of gateways, the more the better because of the instant way in which warp gate works. This way you can either instantly resupply your army in a big fight, or you send in chargelots to harass his bases while his army is distracted with your main army. (Recently ive seen most progamers prefer to do the latter, which makes sense as long as youre sure youre not dying in the main fight) That's actually another battle micro tip kind of: Always fight near a (proxy) pylon.
When should I add a second Robo? Is it worth adding a third?
Unless youre doing some kind of 2x robo all in simply get it after you have sufficient amounts of Templars. Yes it is worth getting a third, personally I even usually add the 2nd and the 3rd at the same time. This is because in late game scenarios after big fights, you want new colossi out asap, being able to build 3 at a time is much better than only being able to build 2 at a time.
How do I micro my probes against a reaper until my stalker/msc are out? (as in the replay)
Biggest mistake here was that you delayed your MSC way too long. You even scouted the reaper with your probe but you still just started two new probes while cancelling your zealot. If youre relying on the MSC for defense then get it asap, and especially dont keep building probes when youre already saturated (with 16/24 probes at the mineral lines)
Actually that reminds me there's one more important thing to talk about - your probe saturation, you build way too many. I think at one point you have 23/24 at one base and like 24/24 at your other. If terran is doing a push then you have to cut probes, just focus on getting units out and defending while being 16/24 at each of your two bases. If he is just going for macro without a scary push then sure keep building probes, but also take your 3rd, or else the probes are just a waste.
so, key points: solid build order, appropriate probe saturation, macro, micro, observer positioning. Work on those, starting with getting down a good build order, your macro will naturally improve with that, while seeing an army coming before it attacks due to observer positioning will also help you prepare to have better army positioning +battle micro.
The answer I hoped for :O Gifted one month TL+ for your efforts.
I'm not really into changing up the buildorder too much because I spent some time ripping it off Vods and practicing it. I just accept that I'll lose if I execute it worse than my opponent his. I'll think about adding a second gateway together with the forge though. So key points for me are: crisp(er) execution, focus on keeping warpgate(s) on cooldown and robo building stuff, get a 3rd at a decent time or stop probe production and obersver positioning. Thanks a lot for the dearly needed points on positioning and micro. Hope I can put it into practice. I will prioritize spreading out units in a defensive position. And try not to forget my Sentrys :/
I know these doesn't matter and I should propably 7gate all-in every game on my level to get a feel for warpgates and seperate the game into an economy and attack phase but I got some more questions:
1. I've seen pros take the base beneath their natural as their third against on Akilon Wastes. Why? Should I go for it, too? 2. When should I start adding Zealots over Stalkers in the early game? I want to end up with 8, so what usually happens is I warp-in all 8 before I get any Zealots. Is this to late? And are 8 Stalkers enough for a 3 Collosus/range build? 3. Assuming I went for 3 Stalkers before Warpgate, then 2 Sentrys, a Collosus and a Zealot. I usually keep my Stalkers in the main. But without them my army feels too weak to take an engagement. Should I just keep them in one clump? 4. Should I position my army at the ramp or hug the Nexus to defend my natural? As I said, I tend to keep my army on the high ground because it feels so fragile. 5. I know Immortals are great against marauders yet no pro ever incorporates them. I guess that's because where I play just build a lot more marauders. When and how many should I add to my army with a 3 Collosus/Range into Templar build (assuming I use the time before the bay finishes for some Observers)? 6. (awkward one) I hotkey my Nexi to 5 my Robo to 6 and my Warpgates to W. Army is at 2/3/4. My left hand is over asdf or 234. If I do a "macro cycle": do I press 5 and 6 with my index finger or do I move my entire hand? What? I said it was awkward!
thanks for the help
1) The reason for this is to simply decrease the amount of locations you can be dropped from. By taking your third above your natural, you can add a cannon or a templar at the corner of your third, and your natural will be much safer from drops.
2) You will need zealots to buffer for your colossus when the terran pressures. Stalkers are good against unstimmed marines but actually terrible in a straight up fight against 10min bio pushes. If you are able to identify your opponent is going for a widow mine drop, then you may want to get 2 stalkers to kill the mines from afar. Aside from that however, my first few units from my gateway are a stalker to fend off reapers, then a sentry to begin gathering energy, then either another stalker or another sentry depending on what I scout with my MSC. So to answer your question, yes you definately need zealots before warping in 8 stalkers. I think 8 can be enough late game, but personally I like to get 12 stalkers just so I can kill the vikings faster.
3)Are you putting pressure on with the 3 stalkers? If not, I think its better to get the 2 sentries out earlier so they can begin gathering energy for hallucination etc. If you feel you are spreading your army too thin just use photon overcharge on your main and have the rest of your units to protect the natural.
4)I'm not sure I understand the question but I believe it would be better to fight in front of the nexus instead of clumping up.
5)Immortals are good against mech, I don't usually get that many against standard bio play but I suppose a good time to get them would be after you have 4-5 colossi and templar on the field. Or if your opponent is going unusually marauder heavy.
6)Index finger. What do you use for the "1" key?
@Toko You could also rebind the W key to a control group and just use that for warpgates. I actually tried doing that for a while, but did not find enough benefits to using it as opposed to the default warpgate style. In the late game there is just so much going on, I found out that spending my spare time adding gateways to a control group was just too much
@6 ^ = msc 1 = scouting probe/phoenix/warp prism 2 = Stalkers 3 = everything 4 = High Templar I use 2 beacause it's muc h more comfortable to press a with the little finger.
@4 The question is: Should I fight at the ramp (army on top) or in range of the Nexus cannon when defending my natural?
Some more questions: I. When should I start keeping my msc with my army? It's common to keep it with the army in PvZ, do I ever do this in PvT? II. In WoL I played Creator Prime double forge, single Collossus without range into zarchon 3/3 timing. I stopped doing it because hellbats melt Zealots no matter how upgraded they are. Now I'm unsure when to attack. It was clear back then: never until 3/3. When should I attack with single forge, 3 Collosus into Storm? Never until I have a deathball and a bank to remax and switch between mass Collossus and ZArchon?
YES IM NOT ALONE
I too use the 3 key for my army, and pretty much mirror your hotkeys except I put my HT's on 2 and my scout/builder on 4.
^ I was working on a build a FE build couple of days before Naniwa come out with this build. Our builds were actually surprisingly similar. The one thing you need to consider doing imo is whether you open sentry --> stalker or stalker --> sentry. Naniwa goes stalker first, which allows him to look for proxies and take that xel'naga tower on Belshire Vestige more safely. If you go sentry first, you will have 100 energy on it earlier (5:50ish). You can use it to scout your opponent's base so long as he isn't knocking on your front door with a handful of units. If he's not attacking, then wg research will be so close to completion that you will have enough time to warp in a third sentry to defend any form of aggression.
Whether it's viable or not... well, Trap went Nexus first + hidden third (before 8 min) against Rain today and won. I know this was done in proleague and players have a chance to prepare their builds carefully. You can't metagame people on the ladder like this as well, but who gets the edge in PvP is still the one who gets lucky in the coinflip process (unfortunately).
I've accidentally deleted all my bookmarks, and lost all the vods of Parting performing his PvP blink stalker push. The only one I managed to find is this. Could you help me find some other vods, so I can study that build?
On July 12 2013 22:49 barbaTossa wrote: I started playing again ~a week ago and managed to get back to gold league. In WoL i was plat once and I would like to get there again. Can someone take a look at this PvT and tell me where I need to improve the most? http://drop.sc/348612 (hope this works, never done it before)
It feels like I heavily miscontrol my deathball and take horrible engagements. I basically a-move > control Stalker > control Templar Things I recognized I did wrong: should've held watch towers much earlier and at all times, a lot more gates a lot earlier after the initial 5, no second robo, no aggressive pylons nor warpins, forgot to add second forge, no guardian shield, no forcefields, charge before blink I think I could have won the game if I had waited for my templar and a pylon with the counterattack after I defended his first push. After that everything fell apart.
I generally tend to lose many Nexi in this match up due to insufficent map vision and because I position my army incorrectly. Especially early game I'm scared to take an egagement. My army isn't positioned to defend my natural but the ramp to my main. I somehow seem to have the vision of a Terran roflstimming all over my army.
Some general questions:
Should I even bother with shield upgrades after armour/attack or is it simply not worth it because of emps? How many archons should I have in my army? Same problem: EMP? How many gates should I aim for at max? 15? When should I add a second Robo? Is it worth adding a third? How do I micro my probes against a reaper until my stalker/msc are out? (as in the replay)
thanks for the help
The way you analyse yourself it sounds like your a smart guy who thinks a good amount about the game, on the other hand the main problem with your play is at the core - your macro and your micro. the standard Terran medivac push comes after 10 minutes. at 11:30 - so quite a bit after those first pushes might arrive your unit count is: 1MSC, 1 Colossus, 3 Stalkers, 2 Sentries,
.. and 4 observers you have had those 3 stalkers since before your warpgate finishes, since 6:50 so thats 4 minutes and 40 seconds between 6:50 and 11:30 and your only added gateway units are two sentries!
I really wouldnt recommend those gateway delying builds that you see some progamers use to any player below master league, you need to be amazing at defense and can never miss any warp ins when going for this kind of style that relies so heavily on the MSC Nexus cannon. Instead I would suggest adding gateways right after your robo facility, and then going for forge / robo bay. But in those cases as well: use those warp gates, build units!!
And if you wanna go for lots of observers, dont even go for a normal colossus build. Either go for 1 colossus into storm, or skip them completely and go for sth like chargelot archon HT, or go for a proper colossus build. That means not building 4 observers while only having a single colossus out for a long time.
Like you realized yourself, your map awareness is a problem. Imo PvT is the protoss matchup where map awareness is the most crucial. If you have many observers, position them properly, optimal is to have one near his base / near his army, one or two to drop for scouts, and, this one is very important and would have helped you a lot - one (or two) near your base at the place that he will be attacking from. Nothing hurts more than losing a nexus for free because you were out of position. Or like in your game taking a really bad engagement because your units werent in a good position.
At one point he just ran into your natural while your army was sitting clumped up between natural and 3rd. He had all his units nicely spread out, attacking from all angles, yours was all in one clump. Before all engagements, try to spread out and build a big concave. If you're the one attacking dont use the main screen to attack, use your minimap, do the attack command to a place that is in the direction you wanna attack but is far away enough that your units will not clump up. (If youre defending you dont need to do this, if you have just spread the units before the engagement and then a click behind his army when he runs into yours, your arc will be superior to his, defenders advantage is pretty big in that sense.) Use force fields. You already listed this as one of your mistakes but you really took particularly unnecessary damage because you just completely neglected your sentries. At one point you just walk into his 3rd and kill it. For lots of players the very first thing they would have done when walking into that 3rd would be to force field the choke to his natural a)preventing his army to defend and b) preventing the SCVs to escape the slaughter.
Not only did you not do this super easy preemptive measure, but you also just let him walk down and kill your army when you could have taken a good engagement by cutting his army in half with forcefields.
Honestly in general battle micro is way simpler for Protoss than it is for Terran. Spreading your units to form a concave and then attack using the minimap and then just letting your army do its thing is already good enough to get to master lvl. Pressing G for guardian shield before the engagement, blinking stalkers to kill vikings (seperate hotkey group!), sending chargelots back to the rest of your army if the MMM force kites too far away from your colossi (hence your chargelots just get owned while your colossi try to chase) and spreading your high templars as well as using single templars on different locations to try to storm whenever you can are additional skills that are important later on.
I don't even feel like answering your questions because they are so unimportant compared to improving your macro and your micro. Which you do by practicing the opening (you can do this vs the computer if you want) and by using the tips i gave you in regards to micro.
Should I even bother with shield upgrades after armour/attack or is it simply not worth it because of emps?
Yes absolutely, always. If you spread your units properly EMPs aren't gonna hit everything, especially since up to a good master lvl people rarely ever go for the mass ghost+vikings style.
How many archons should I have in my army? Same problem: EMP?
Despite EMP archons are a very strong unit in PvT. They are very buff, they dont get slowed by marauders, and they do good splash damage, which isnt just good vs MMM but can also kill vikings super fast, especially when terrans arent that amazing at army control. When to build how many depends on your build.. If you go for storm you only start building archons after you feel that you have enough Templars for storm (and of course you often morph low energy Templars after they casted their spells) There are some builds, like double forge colossus where you get templar archive but you dont get storm and just get 2-4 archons. Theres also the Chargelot Archon 7 gate all in, or old school chargelot archon macro style. But I think youre talking about the late game, in which case there is no definite answer. It often depends on your mineral / gas ratio. When youre low on mins and have lots of gas then obviously building lots of archons is a good choice. In general just build them when you feel like you can afford them. Do not not (yes two not's) build them only cause youre scared of EMPs, unless you know that he really has a scary amount of ghosts.
There isn't really a max. If your army supply is maxed and you have a good amount of ressources than just build a shitload of gateways, the more the better because of the instant way in which warp gate works. This way you can either instantly resupply your army in a big fight, or you send in chargelots to harass his bases while his army is distracted with your main army. (Recently ive seen most progamers prefer to do the latter, which makes sense as long as youre sure youre not dying in the main fight) That's actually another battle micro tip kind of: Always fight near a (proxy) pylon.
When should I add a second Robo? Is it worth adding a third?
Unless youre doing some kind of 2x robo all in simply get it after you have sufficient amounts of Templars. Yes it is worth getting a third, personally I even usually add the 2nd and the 3rd at the same time. This is because in late game scenarios after big fights, you want new colossi out asap, being able to build 3 at a time is much better than only being able to build 2 at a time.
How do I micro my probes against a reaper until my stalker/msc are out? (as in the replay)
Biggest mistake here was that you delayed your MSC way too long. You even scouted the reaper with your probe but you still just started two new probes while cancelling your zealot. If youre relying on the MSC for defense then get it asap, and especially dont keep building probes when youre already saturated (with 16/24 probes at the mineral lines)
Actually that reminds me there's one more important thing to talk about - your probe saturation, you build way too many. I think at one point you have 23/24 at one base and like 24/24 at your other. If terran is doing a push then you have to cut probes, just focus on getting units out and defending while being 16/24 at each of your two bases. If he is just going for macro without a scary push then sure keep building probes, but also take your 3rd, or else the probes are just a waste.
so, key points: solid build order, appropriate probe saturation, macro, micro, observer positioning. Work on those, starting with getting down a good build order, your macro will naturally improve with that, while seeing an army coming before it attacks due to observer positioning will also help you prepare to have better army positioning +battle micro.
The answer I hoped for :O Gifted one month TL+ for your efforts.
I'm not really into changing up the buildorder too much because I spent some time ripping it off Vods and practicing it. I just accept that I'll lose if I execute it worse than my opponent his. I'll think about adding a second gateway together with the forge though. So key points for me are: crisp(er) execution, focus on keeping warpgate(s) on cooldown and robo building stuff, get a 3rd at a decent time or stop probe production and obersver positioning. Thanks a lot for the dearly needed points on positioning and micro. Hope I can put it into practice. I will prioritize spreading out units in a defensive position. And try not to forget my Sentrys :/
I know these doesn't matter and I should propably 7gate all-in every game on my level to get a feel for warpgates and seperate the game into an economy and attack phase but I got some more questions:
1. I've seen pros take the base beneath their natural as their third against on Akilon Wastes. Why? Should I go for it, too? 2. When should I start adding Zealots over Stalkers in the early game? I want to end up with 8, so what usually happens is I warp-in all 8 before I get any Zealots. Is this to late? And are 8 Stalkers enough for a 3 Collosus/range build? 3. Assuming I went for 3 Stalkers before Warpgate, then 2 Sentrys, a Collosus and a Zealot. I usually keep my Stalkers in the main. But without them my army feels too weak to take an engagement. Should I just keep them in one clump? 4. Should I position my army at the ramp or hug the Nexus to defend my natural? As I said, I tend to keep my army on the high ground because it feels so fragile. 5. I know Immortals are great against marauders yet no pro ever incorporates them. I guess that's because where I play just build a lot more marauders. When and how many should I add to my army with a 3 Collosus/Range into Templar build (assuming I use the time before the bay finishes for some Observers)? 6. (awkward one) I hotkey my Nexi to 5 my Robo to 6 and my Warpgates to W. Army is at 2/3/4. My left hand is over asdf or 234. If I do a "macro cycle": do I press 5 and 6 with my index finger or do I move my entire hand? What? I said it was awkward!
thanks for the help
1) The reason for this is to simply decrease the amount of locations you can be dropped from. By taking your third above your natural, you can add a cannon or a templar at the corner of your third, and your natural will be much safer from drops.
2) You will need zealots to buffer for your colossus when the terran pressures. Stalkers are good against unstimmed marines but actually terrible in a straight up fight against 10min bio pushes. If you are able to identify your opponent is going for a widow mine drop, then you may want to get 2 stalkers to kill the mines from afar. Aside from that however, my first few units from my gateway are a stalker to fend off reapers, then a sentry to begin gathering energy, then either another stalker or another sentry depending on what I scout with my MSC. So to answer your question, yes you definately need zealots before warping in 8 stalkers. I think 8 can be enough late game, but personally I like to get 12 stalkers just so I can kill the vikings faster.
3)Are you putting pressure on with the 3 stalkers? If not, I think its better to get the 2 sentries out earlier so they can begin gathering energy for hallucination etc. If you feel you are spreading your army too thin just use photon overcharge on your main and have the rest of your units to protect the natural.
4)I'm not sure I understand the question but I believe it would be better to fight in front of the nexus instead of clumping up.
5)Immortals are good against mech, I don't usually get that many against standard bio play but I suppose a good time to get them would be after you have 4-5 colossi and templar on the field. Or if your opponent is going unusually marauder heavy.
6)Index finger. What do you use for the "1" key?
@Toko You could also rebind the W key to a control group and just use that for warpgates. I actually tried doing that for a while, but did not find enough benefits to using it as opposed to the default warpgate style. In the late game there is just so much going on, I found out that spending my spare time adding gateways to a control group was just too much
@6 ^ = msc 1 = scouting probe/phoenix/warp prism 2 = Stalkers 3 = everything 4 = High Templar I use 2 beacause it's muc h more comfortable to press a with the little finger.
@4 The question is: Should I fight at the ramp (army on top) or in range of the Nexus cannon when defending my natural?
@ 2&3 I usually get Sentries after I drop the Robotics Bay, Sentires cost 100 gas, Stalkers only 50 and I don't want to delay it. Also I don't want to rely on Sentrys too mcuh because I can't handle them reliably^^
Some more questions: I. When should I start keeping my msc with my army? It's common to keep it with the army in PvZ, do I ever do this in PvT? II. In WoL I played Creator Prime double forge, single Collossus without range into zarchon 3/3 timing. I stopped doing it because hellbats melt Zealots no matter how upgraded they are. Now I'm unsure when to attack. It was clear back then: never until 3/3. When should I attack with single forge, 3 Collosus into Storm? Never until I have a deathball and a bank to remax and switch between mass Collossus and ZArchon?
Just to clear up a few things and maybe add to what was said here:
1) In general, it's easier to defend bases in a line against drops than it is to defend bases in a triangle. Particularly on Akilon and Whirlwind, there's this weird dead space in between the "triangle" 3rd and the main, making drops a nightmare to deal with. This problem doesn't exist on Neo Planet S, which is why most toss will still generally go for the highground 3rd.
2) Unless you're opening with blink stalkers, you want to delay building stalkers for as long as possible. If you open with charge especially, you want to ONLY build blink stalkers to deal with vikings/drops when they start coming in.
3) This is really just something you have to identify. If you're opponent is doing a direct attack at the front, you need to pull the stalkers to your main army. Otherwise, feel free to leave them guarding your main. Also, you probably want a round of zealots before the first push.
4) First vs. FanTaSy. First opens forge/twilight with charge then goes into HTs (transitioning through a DT warp prism play) and proceeds to take his 3rd. As he's building his templar count and defending drops, he adds on 3-4 immortals because his robo is free. THEN he goes into colossus. Something to think about; immortal/chargelot/sentry is wicked strong at straight-up engagements, especially when you can fall back on storms.
5) It's better to position yourself at the ramp. You want to control the highground with FF.
6) I use my index finger for 4-7 when I play protoss. It's a little bit of both hand movement and finger stretching, but not too much of either.
Hope this gives some solid answers!
Oh, for the additional questions:
1) I generally don't bring my MsC out with my army unless I go for an aggressive attack in the midgame or in the lategame. After a while, nexus cannon just doesn't stop drops anymore and you should really just rely on warpins and cannons. It's best to just keep your MsC near your proxy pylon or on a follow command on one of your colossi so it doesn't get immediately sniped by vikings and so you can use other hotkeys.
2) Kind of the same. Yeah, hellbats are really good against zealots. But honestly, I think the answer to hellbats is just playing more positionally-focused. Move your army to threaten his 4th, warp in zealots to harass his 3rd, do drops in his main, keep him moving around. It's kind of the same concept of WoL PvZ where you just start doing crazy amounts of warpins and non-committal pressure once the unstoppable number of BLs got out. If you know you can't win a direct engagement, you avoid it while trying to outposition your opponent and whittle away the economy. I feel this is especially true if you open colossus, though I'm not sure why.
I DO think there are some really obvious attack opportunities that arise, however, when you kill off a big chunk of the terran's army, either in a direct engagement or after a huge drop. Even if you lose like a nexus, the counterattack option is available and many times can just lead to you winning the game (or at least cutting off bases and crippling his economy in turn). Hopefully this gives you some ideas to work with.
On July 15 2013 01:37 vhapter wrote: who gets the edge in PvP is still the one who gets lucky in the coinflip process (unfortunately).
First of all, thanks for the reply. Secondly, sure, there's some luck involved, but I hope that as a diamond player I could get a better winrate than my currently abysmal 30%. Obviously I need to brush up on understanding the meta and compositions better, as the rest of my post had questions on that .
Is there a way to punish a terran? I defended a proxy factory + medivac marine push without losing anything, I scout with my oracle (i used it to defend as well) and see he was on 2 bases taking his third, I wanted to timing push him with zealot archon but he pressured me again with MMM and I eventually died later on, I mean, what the fuck is this shit? I won't post the replay bceause the Bm was too extreme, but I swear to god that game made 0 sense, terran is just WAY TOO COST FUCKING EFFICIENT, i dunno what to do anymore, fuck protoss
High Diamond protoss here. I'm having some major trouble against some Terran cheese. One is a 10 rax 2 base gasless that hits with 16 marines at 8:00, 32 at 9:00, then 48 at 10:00 when the last overcharge wears off. It just seems like autolose unless you rushed to colossus. Another variant is 3 raxes on the map with an SCV pull. I've lost five games to it today, three vs the 10 rax and two to SCV pulls. These are the latest couple.
On July 15 2013 11:51 Extenz wrote: Is there a way to punish a terran? I defended a proxy factory + medivac marine push without losing anything, I scout with my oracle (i used it to defend as well) and see he was on 2 bases taking his third, I wanted to timing push him with zealot archon but he pressured me again with MMM and I eventually died later on, I mean, what the fuck is this shit? I won't post the replay bceause the Bm was too extreme, but I swear to god that game made 0 sense, terran is just WAY TOO COST FUCKING EFFICIENT, i dunno what to do anymore, fuck protoss
It would be helpful to see a replay. In most cases in the early game, terran can get away with doing light pressure like mine drops and stuff and still be fairly safe if it fails because all they need is bunkers and SCVs to defend most pushes. In any case, I feel the main problem you're facing is that you feel further ahead than you actually are, and that's what's causing a lot of the frustration for you. For the most part, unless you hold off the push with no losses and have 3 immortals out, a counterpush isn't going to work, especially one that comes more than 2 minutes later.
My advice to you is to just keep your cool, relax, and start incorporating warp prisms and clever positioning into your play if you want to be aggressive. A good example is First vs. FanTaSy in OSL Ro16 and perhaps Best vs. INnoVation (match 1, G1) of the Proleague Quarterfinals. Or perhaps any Liquid`HerO PvT game.
what is the best way to micro an immortal based army(2-3 immortals) vs blink stalkers pvp? should i focus first with just the immortals or with everything minus the zealots? i feel like this shouldn't be a problem for me but it's something i have trouble with
If you have 2-3 immortals you can just amove for the most part. I generally focus on keeping them alive rather than focusing shit down, with that many immortals you have a shit ton of damage anyway.
On July 15 2013 01:37 vhapter wrote: who gets the edge in PvP is still the one who gets lucky in the coinflip process (unfortunately).
First of all, thanks for the reply. Secondly, sure, there's some luck involved, but I hope that as a diamond player I could get a better winrate than my currently abysmal 30%. Obviously I need to brush up on understanding the meta and compositions better, as the rest of my post had questions on that .
No problem. I'm a diamond player myself too. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are good PvP build orders, but there isn't a go-to build. So if you like this kind of strategy, I think you just need to get over the fact that you will be at disadvantage sometimes and focus on playing as perfectly as you can with the tools this build provides you with.
For instance, you can't go dts and ragequit when you see your opponent has a nexus up before yours and an observer. You can use them to delay your opponent's third, scout better, drop him later on when he thins he is safe. A single cannon isn't enough to keep dts from wreaking havoc if it has a large surface area, so you can abuse that by taking down the cannon with 3 dts or something, and as you force your opponent to move out of position to defend his main, you strike somewhere else. I could be wrong, but I believe getting good at PvP has a lot to do with learning how to use your tools more efficiently.
I'm looking for a VOD or replay of a PvZ build that involves warp prism aggression into a classic immortal all-in.
I spotted this build on Neoplanet S recently and can't remember where I saw it. It may have been yesterday. Someone suggested that it could have been this build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414359) but, the one I am referencing, is one where the warp prism makes its way across the map empty and loads up before making it's move, typically into the main to FF the ramp. That making it faster.
P.S. A build order would suffice as well. And Thanks in advance.
1) It seems to me there's no real "standard" macro PvZ build most pros use, from what I've seen the koreans kind of all have their own style (but maybe I'm wrong). Is there like a general standard macro build employed by toss players - i.e something like the equivalent of 3cc double ebay into bio mine for TvZ (if so any matches to watch would be appreciated)
2) Is there a general consensus on FFE vs GW expand? I'm kind of under the impression (Again perhaps I'm wrong) that FFE is superior if the zerg reacts properly to your gw expand, but the nice thing about gw expands is they often result in the zerg making mistake - does this seem pretty correct or is it just a stylistic thing? - I know the op address this but I feel it's a bit dated, as it seems closer to 50/50 for the openings I've seen recently
1) Protoss definitely all have their own styles but that doesnt mean that there is no standard macro play Stargate openers are very common, some going into colossus, like rain likes to do, some going mass air like crank and alicia like to do ( as well as free , sos, stork and a lot of other Ps, depending on the map)
sorry, he loses in both games T_T but it shouldnt be too hard to find many more examples
2) I think you might be right about that in theory, but in reality the best zergs in the world keep having trouble against it too. If you are smart about your GW aggression then you wont be too behind even if Z reacts very well When choosing what style you prefer I would suggest not focusing on what you think might be better but on what's more fun for you to play
EPT
on Akilon Wastes. Why? Should I go for it, too?
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