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On July 12 2013 08:02 Lazuras wrote:Hello everyone, i will be short... how do you beat late game zergs that mass swarmhost with roach/hydra support, followed by a transition into mass corrupter and some brood-lords? oh yeah, they also tend to mass spines and spores and then just dig themselves in comfortably. I never win pvz anymore because i want a macro game, i don't want to cheese or all-in every damn game, but with this strategy the zergs are employing, how do you counter it? I'am fairly sure every master and grandmaster player knows what i'am talking about. Every zerg uses this strategy at the moment vs toss and why shouldn't they? everybody likes to win. i've heard airtoss is the way to go but how are you suppose to get the deadly airball up when there are 10000 locusts knocking at your front door all the time? you need collosus to be able to deal with the locusts..and its so easy for zerg to get 30 corrupters in 1 min while a protoss has to wait ages just to get 12 voids out.. It's so confusing and i would really appreciate if there is anyone who've devised a build order that can counter, or at least give you a fighting chance. I'am not kidding, my last 15 games vs zerg, ive won 1.. He didn't go for this strategy (ultra,ling) the rest, all losses and it has been this strategy everytime. here is a replay of my latest massacre vs zerg, please give as much feedback or criticism as you want, i am groving desperate. http://drop.sc/348547
You are too passive. At like 15 minutes you move out with your army to discover he has creep right at your doorstep. Throughout the game he has like a billion creep tumors (although they dont reach nearly as far as they could if he was faster with them). That's because you just sit in your base and dont do anything about them. When you scout swarm hosts always get a warp prism while your robo bay is building. Zealot harass is very important. Use your prism, build proxy pylons, you had no map awareness.
Abuse the slowness of swarm hosts, not only with zealot harass but with your main army too, move around with it, kill creep tumors, threaten to attack bases, force him to reposition his army.
There was also a point where you could have done some damage but you had no observer with your army (I assume it got killed) but you noticed that yourself. When you do a big push like that make sure you have enough, and id suggest having them follow your colossi instead of having them in the hotkey group of your army.
Another advantage of being active with your army is that swarm hosts cant just burrow near your base and start attacking your base with free units. It's a similar principle as when you're playing against a siege tank push.
While you were on 4 base he had 6 and you didnt even know of their existance. It's not uncommon for a zerg to get far ahead in bases when going for mutas, but with swarm hosts he shouldnt be able to do this so easily. (What's scary about them is that theyre still strong even when zerg is on the same number of bases)
Your macro was lacking, you had double robo and 9 gateways on 4 bases. Therefore you piled up over 3k minerals without being maxed. Either build a lot more gateways or build like 3 stargates. You eventually got one, but that was very late and just one.
Against corruptors get void rays, against broodlords get tempests. Although in the end id say you always want some tempests.
This style of play is definitely very hard to play against but as long as there's still so much to improve lower lvl players like us shouldnt really worry about that.
I think being more active on the map will help you a lot once you get a feeling for it. A good example I saw today was Parting vs Symbol game 1 and 3 - unfortunately he still lost those lol (symbol played pretty great to be fair, especially game 1), but he did the things I mentioned really well.
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United States86 Posts
Just had to ask somewhere: I recently got HoTs and I've noticed that when an enemy structure is building I can't click on it and identify it like I used to be able to in WoL. For instance, I scouted a zerg opponent building something after his pool and I presumed it was a roach warren but it was in fact a bane nest. Is this some kind of glitch or is there something in the building animation I should be looking for? I also can't click on enemy units to see where they are on upgrades and stuff like that. Its quite odd. Is this normal or something that will "unlock" once I get up to level 30 or something? Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere I wasn't quite sure how to even search for this answer in a non-lazy way
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On July 12 2013 09:50 Kaizen[7] wrote:
Just had to ask somewhere: I recently got HoTs and I've noticed that when an enemy structure is building I can't click on it and identify it like I used to be able to in WoL. For instance, I scouted a zerg opponent building something after his pool and I presumed it was a roach warren but it was in fact a bane nest. Is this some kind of glitch or is there something in the building animation I should be looking for? I also can't click on enemy units to see where they are on upgrades and stuff like that. Its quite odd. Is this normal or something that will "unlock" once I get up to level 30 or something? Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere I wasn't quite sure how to even search for this answer in a non-lazy way
I believe what you're looking for is under Options > Gameplay > Enable Enemy Unit Selection. It's off by default for some reason.
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United States4883 Posts
Quick question: When opening up with warp prism PvT, I generally go 3 gates + robo, then forge + TC, get up 4 additional gateways and build a warp prism at 9:00. I had started opening with DTs, which seem to work quite well, but I'm a little lost on when to transition to templar. Should I be placing the dark shrine and the templar archives at about the same time (same time as the warp prism) or until after the first warpin or should I just defend the first push with DTs or DT archons and switch into templar AFTER?
Followup, how much later do you need colossus? I feel like you can get away on just storm and warp prism harass for quite a while.
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United States86 Posts
On July 12 2013 12:02 Valhaden wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 09:50 Kaizen[7] wrote:
Just had to ask somewhere: I recently got HoTs and I've noticed that when an enemy structure is building I can't click on it and identify it like I used to be able to in WoL. For instance, I scouted a zerg opponent building something after his pool and I presumed it was a roach warren but it was in fact a bane nest. Is this some kind of glitch or is there something in the building animation I should be looking for? I also can't click on enemy units to see where they are on upgrades and stuff like that. Its quite odd. Is this normal or something that will "unlock" once I get up to level 30 or something? Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere I wasn't quite sure how to even search for this answer in a non-lazy way I believe what you're looking for is under Options > Gameplay > Enable Enemy Unit Selection. It's off by default for some reason.
Thank you sir! I was seriously going crazy about this. Why in the HELL would that be off? I mean why even provide that option?
Thanks again
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United States86 Posts
I've been going for a warp prism/DT expand build something like what Artosis has been doing lately on his stream in PvT. I essentially go for 1 gate FE with the twilight council after the expansion nexus. I could use some guidance in terms of a) refining the build and (b) having the units required to stop widow mine drops when going for such a build.
Should something like 3 stalkers, an obs, and a mama core be sufficient?
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On July 12 2013 08:43 Salivanth wrote:
I just faced a really weird build. It went for Drilling Claws off 2 bases into mech. The problem was the widow mine drop. The Terran dropped the mines in a scattered pattern throughout my mineral line and they burrowed in one second and obliterated everything. It was like freakin hellbats on steroids.
What am I supposed to do against a build like that? Even pulling probes wouldn't have worked, I'd have lost my mineral line when the probes clumped. But I lost my mineral line even UNclumped, so yeah.
You'd have to scout a drop coming with an observer or hallucination in their base. Also, something to provide vision of the drop like a pylon, unit, phoenix, observer, or something in the drop path can give you advance warning. Once you scout that terran is going for early drops, you'll want to put a cannon in each mineral line. You should also have probably 2 stalkers in your main. When you see the drop coming, you'll need to pull workers as it enters your base, before he drops.
Alternatively, you can try to pull all of your probes, and micro one back near each widow mine. If you do it correctly, the mines will target the closest probes, and almost all of your probes will be ok. However, that's not easy to do, and there is a lot of risk. So you basically have to scout the drop coming and react before the mines drop.
Edit: I'm not an especially good player, so you should probably take someone else's advise over mine. But I'd think that's what you would need to do (unless you opened phoenixes).
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On July 11 2013 23:22 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 22:51 sSooG wrote:
I have currently 0% winrate vs. zergs and its the only thing that keeps me in platinum atm... i have 55% winrate in mirrors and over 80% vs terrans but vs. zergs i currently sit on 0% winrate...
i mostly play FFE but the zergs economy just gets out of control in every single match... they push early and expand behind it... i get some hallucination scouting but i cant punish the zerg... if i do some FFE into 4gate pressure into tech i get behind because he has like 8 roaches when i warp in my first round of gateway units... if i play some WoL style immortal all in i win on some maps but i dont want to play only all ins and only the same all in especially... i want to get my PvZ stronger so i am ready for diamond zergs
thanks in advance I dont really know what you're asking for, you're just making a general statement ^^ If he has enough roaches rdy against your 4 gate go home without losing your units and expand+get your robo There's several solid macro PvZ styles, just pick one and go with it. Hallucination isn't really for "punishing" zerg, it's for general scouting and reacting, making sure you have a good unit composition against what he has. Maybe you take your 3rd too late, maybe you need to do more warp prism harass, maybe your upgrades are falling behind, it's hard to say what's wrong with your macro style with such a generic statement
Hey thank you very much for your answer!
I have a replay now so please take a look at it someone if you have time: http://drop.sc/348619
I watched the replay myself and the biggest mistake I found was that i took the 3rd. way too late... I think i take it too late in every single PvZ... But please feel free to give me more tips, i did okay with upgrades and I harrassed him more than enough but in the end i didnt have enough army, I didnt get my 4th in time so i ran out of eco and lost... It was because I somehow hoped that the zerg will tab out before I do since i took out his bases so many times throughout the game... at the end i didnt have the eco to get my army supply up and he just killed me...
i think i am scared to take a 3rd base because i lost too many times to zergling all ins / baneling busts and roach all ins... Can you give me a generic benchmark for when i should take my 3rd. base if the zerg is not playing some 2base all in? just give me a timestamp so i can rely on that a little...
also if the zerg takes no 3rd. up until lets say 7 minutes? i should worry and scout/def as hard as possible? (stay 2 base myself i guess...)
i hope i can find some answers here...
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I started playing again ~a week ago and managed to get back to gold league. In WoL i was plat once and I would like to get there again.
Can someone take a look at this PvT and tell me where I need to improve the most? http://drop.sc/348612
(hope this works, never done it before)
It feels like I heavily miscontrol my deathball and take horrible engagements. I basically a-move > control Stalker > control Templar
Things I recognized I did wrong: should've held watch towers much earlier and at all times, a lot more gates a lot earlier after the initial 5, no second robo, no aggressive pylons nor warpins, forgot to add second forge, no guardian shield, no forcefields, charge before blink
I think I could have won the game if I had waited for my templar and a pylon with the counterattack after I defended his first push. After that everything fell apart.
I generally tend to lose many Nexi in this match up due to insufficent map vision and because I position my army incorrectly. Especially early game I'm scared to take an egagement. My army isn't positioned to defend my natural but the ramp to my main. I somehow seem to have the vision of a Terran roflstimming all over my army.
Some general questions:
Should I even bother with shield upgrades after armour/attack or is it simply not worth it because of emps?
How many archons should I have in my army? Same problem: EMP?
How many gates should I aim for at max? 15?
When should I add a second Robo? Is it worth adding a third?
How do I micro my probes against a reaper until my stalker/msc are out? (as in the replay)
thanks for the help
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Odd question but - any tips on Phoenix micro-ing? Because... I suck at it 
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United States4883 Posts
On July 13 2013 00:41 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:Odd question but - any tips on Phoenix micro-ing? Because... I suck at it
Double-click to stack your phoenixes before lifting stuff. This not only allows you to avoid having phoenixes sitting over spores and stuff but also allows you the maximum amount of DPS instantly. You also need to stack before engaging mutalisks. Other than that, you just have to keep them moving constantly.
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On July 13 2013 00:41 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:Odd question but - any tips on Phoenix micro-ing? Because... I suck at it
I'm assuming vs Muta?
Tip IMO is to focus less on hitting the Muta and focus more on avoiding being hit yourself. It doesn't take that many hits for a big flock of Muta to kill you, but if you micro correctly, they can NEVER hit you. All you have to do is right click away and they will do the shooting themselves.
VS ground units the key is to not lift them up TOO fast. If you use 7 out of 8 phoenixes to lift Hydras, you won't accomplish anything. Try to lift 1-2 at a time so you can actually kill them. And phoenixes will shoot while they move too, so focus on pulling back hurt ones. They will keep shooting while you do that.
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what time does a zerg usually place his roach warren and at what time do the first ones generally pop out? assuming you went for gateway expand into 4-gate pressure. (naniwa)
I've been having some succes with it in masters, the games that it havent worked is when his roaches pop out or there are too many lings + missmicro, any thoughts on how to improve this strategy? any "perfect timings" to hit?
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United States4883 Posts
On July 13 2013 08:36 Lazuras wrote:
what time does a zerg usually place his roach warren and at what time do the first ones generally pop out? assuming you went for gateway expand into 4-gate pressure. (naniwa)
I've been having some succes with it in masters, the games that it havent worked is when his roaches pop out or there are too many lings + missmicro, any thoughts on how to improve this strategy? any "perfect timings" to hit?
Roach Warren takes ~60 seconds to complete + ~30 seconds for roaches to pop out, so zergs will generally put down the roach warren 90 seconds before attacks come in. For FFE, the common timing is 7:00 to be ready for any 4-gate pressure at 8:30. Against 1-gate FE, all the zerg timings are about a minute earlier, so around 6:00 to have roaches to fend off an attack at 7:30.
Naniwa's attack SHOULD hit with 9 zealots + MsC around 7:00 - before any roaches pop. If there ARE roaches there before 7:00, you can just recall with a comfortable lead knowing that zerg sacrificed a lot of economy. Either way, the goal of Naniwa's pressure is to at least force some roaches or a ton of lings. If you achieve either, you've already done some good economic damage.
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sorry if im in the wrong place but does it show somewhere all the wall offs vs zerg for ffes and just gateway wall offs
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Italy12246 Posts
On July 13 2013 09:28 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 08:36 Lazuras wrote:
what time does a zerg usually place his roach warren and at what time do the first ones generally pop out? assuming you went for gateway expand into 4-gate pressure. (naniwa)
I've been having some succes with it in masters, the games that it havent worked is when his roaches pop out or there are too many lings + missmicro, any thoughts on how to improve this strategy? any "perfect timings" to hit? Roach Warren takes ~60 seconds to complete + ~30 seconds for roaches to pop out, so zergs will generally put down the roach warren 90 seconds before attacks come in. For FFE, the common timing is 7:00 to be ready for any 4-gate pressure at 8:30. Against 1-gate FE, all the zerg timings are about a minute earlier, so around 6:00 to have roaches to fend off an attack at 7:30. Naniwa's attack SHOULD hit with 9 zealots + MsC around 7:00 - before any roaches pop. If there ARE roaches there before 7:00, you can just recall with a comfortable lead knowing that zerg sacrificed a lot of economy. Either way, the goal of Naniwa's pressure is to at least force some roaches or a ton of lings. If you achieve either, you've already done some good economic damage.
The timing on the roach warren can and usually is delayed if the protoss is doing some sort of tech build that takes gasses at the natural expo though. Just something to keep in mind.
Naniwa's push hits a bit faster than that, you go with the first round of zealots not the second.
♥ added to the OP!
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In the event you are defending your base and are using a planetary nexus, is it viable to suicide your MSC and chronoboost a new one since it's faster to get from 0 to 50 energy that way?
I've been doing that a few times in PvT and I don't know if its worth the cost of a new MSC.
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On July 12 2013 20:55 sSooG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 23:22 7mk wrote:On July 11 2013 22:51 sSooG wrote:
I have currently 0% winrate vs. zergs and its the only thing that keeps me in platinum atm... i have 55% winrate in mirrors and over 80% vs terrans but vs. zergs i currently sit on 0% winrate...
i mostly play FFE but the zergs economy just gets out of control in every single match... they push early and expand behind it... i get some hallucination scouting but i cant punish the zerg... if i do some FFE into 4gate pressure into tech i get behind because he has like 8 roaches when i warp in my first round of gateway units... if i play some WoL style immortal all in i win on some maps but i dont want to play only all ins and only the same all in especially... i want to get my PvZ stronger so i am ready for diamond zergs
thanks in advance I dont really know what you're asking for, you're just making a general statement ^^ If he has enough roaches rdy against your 4 gate go home without losing your units and expand+get your robo There's several solid macro PvZ styles, just pick one and go with it. Hallucination isn't really for "punishing" zerg, it's for general scouting and reacting, making sure you have a good unit composition against what he has. Maybe you take your 3rd too late, maybe you need to do more warp prism harass, maybe your upgrades are falling behind, it's hard to say what's wrong with your macro style with such a generic statement Hey thank you very much for your answer! I have a replay now so please take a look at it someone if you have time: http://drop.sc/348619I watched the replay myself and the biggest mistake I found was that i took the 3rd. way too late... I think i take it too late in every single PvZ... But please feel free to give me more tips, i did okay with upgrades and I harrassed him more than enough but in the end i didnt have enough army, I didnt get my 4th in time so i ran out of eco and lost... It was because I somehow hoped that the zerg will tab out before I do since i took out his bases so many times throughout the game... at the end i didnt have the eco to get my army supply up and he just killed me... i think i am scared to take a 3rd base because i lost too many times to zergling all ins / baneling busts and roach all ins... Can you give me a generic benchmark for when i should take my 3rd. base if the zerg is not playing some 2base all in? just give me a timestamp so i can rely on that a little... also if the zerg takes no 3rd. up until lets say 7 minutes? i should worry and scout/def as hard as possible? (stay 2 base myself i guess...) i hope i can find some answers here...
push, really need additional help from you guys here  thanks in advance
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United States4883 Posts
On July 12 2013 12:37 SC2John wrote:
Quick question: When opening up with warp prism PvT, I generally go 3 gates + robo, then forge + TC, get up 4 additional gateways and build a warp prism at 9:00. I had started opening with DTs, which seem to work quite well, but I'm a little lost on when to transition to templar. Should I be placing the dark shrine and the templar archives at about the same time (same time as the warp prism) or until after the first warpin or should I just defend the first push with DTs or DT archons and switch into templar AFTER?
Followup, how much later do you need colossus? I feel like you can get away on just storm and warp prism harass for quite a while.
Could I get an answer to this?
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EPT
