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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
Italy12246 Posts
6pool, they make a zealot and cancel at the very last moment. The timings work out so that if he is 6pooling you can let the zealot complete.
Vs 10pool it's trickier as it times nicely so it hits right as the zealot is cancelled and then your life sucks balls. If they want to play safe vs it, they just send down the probe earlier to check for lings and/or not cancel it. Also it's nice to simcity your main as he might be doing a 10pool speed allin, see Life vs Parting on Start Station.
In general vs early pools you just have to micro your probes until 1-2 zealots are up, it's actually pretty easy to hold. I once had a particularly awesome game in which i held off a 6pool without losing probes, while being deeply convinced i was playing pvp. I was scouting for proxies and whatnot and all of a sudden there's lings running in my main.
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Found the game. Gonna watch. Ty for answer.
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Im having trouble in PvZ and PvT, but its really hard for me just straight up macro game with a zerg. I can only count on All-ins. Im not sure if im supposed to post replays or only ask a question in this thread (or make an OP) but oh well.
http://drop.sc/348303
(let me know if there is a problem. I've never posted replays)
- I gateway expand, since Im trying to try it out instead of FFE
- I snipe his third while losing a few unnecessary units
- Mediocre Pheonix control, but I manage to get a few drone and queen kills
So from here Im supposed to be ahead, since I've sniped several drones, queens, and have a hatch kill. But from then on, it seems that my macro against zerg is just terrible. I get a third base since I expect the opponent to be recovering from damage.
I think I can improve by having 1. earlier colossus, since when he first hit me, I should have a colossus, and it just felt delayed. 2. Or maybe I should take the other third, since there is a choke point there. 3. I forgot sentries. (prob could have teched to HT too)
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On July 09 2013 07:21 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Little off topic but, I just promoted to Diamond! WOOHOO!
But there is only 5 people in my division...what is up with that????
This was obviously a mistake. I played my first 10 games against diamond players, and lost all of them. Good thing we can't be demoted during a season anymore... This sucks.
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Why do some Protoss builds only use a single forge for upgrades? The only advantage I can think of is that it's less of an investment than double forge/double upgrades, but wouldn't double forge be better in a macro game anyways?
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On July 10 2013 13:08 Whatson wrote:
Why do some Protoss builds only use a single forge for upgrades? The only advantage I can think of is that it's less of an investment than double forge/double upgrades, but wouldn't double forge be better in a macro game anyways?
Im not the best person to answer (dia), but obviously having a double forge is a much larger investment. It is obviously better in a longer game, but if you invest in double forges, you are more susceptible to attacks, and it slows down your tech with the gas investment. Plus, you have to add in the money that the upgrades themselves cost, which is a great deal of gas.
i think it was Creator back in WoL who developed a safe build for double forge in pvt and help defend vs 10 minute medivac pushes or something.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 10 2013 13:24 iMrising wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 13:08 Whatson wrote:
Why do some Protoss builds only use a single forge for upgrades? The only advantage I can think of is that it's less of an investment than double forge/double upgrades, but wouldn't double forge be better in a macro game anyways? Im not the best person to answer (dia), but obviously having a double forge is a much larger investment. It is obviously better in a longer game, but if you invest in double forges, you are more susceptible to attacks, and it slows down your tech with the gas investment. Plus, you have to add in the money that the upgrades themselves cost, which is a great deal of gas. i think it was Creator back in WoL who developed a safe build for double forge in pvt and help defend vs 10 minute medivac pushes or something.
The biggest problem with going double forge these days is that you get really far behind in the gas against terrans that generally push even earlier with medivacs. Lower gas means you can't get out the colossus/templar in time to deal with pushes; in addition, you need to spend extra gas on MORE stalkers to prevent drops. I honestly think double forge doesn't work well unless you open stargate or DT drops and can put lots of pressure on your opponent, do potential economic damage, and delay the push some. (Or just do some kind of severe economic damage in general).
Getting a single forge also just has some inherent advantages. You get it a little earlier than double forge, meaning that you can get +1/+1 by 10-minutes anyway without chronoboost (you add the second forge to start 2/2 together on time). It also allows you to build cannons against any kind of drop play, particularly mine drops and hellbat drops. And, of course, it allows you to get your tech up a little faster. Overall, I would say that double forge relies on pretty razer-thin defenses and timings whereas single forge is a little bit more flexible.
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Italy12246 Posts
The reasons for single forge vs double forge are the following:
1) Maximizing your unit count. Obviously, single forge builds invest less in tech and more in units, making them easier to execute
2) You can now get that one single forge a LOT faster; thanks to the msc it's possible to go 1gate fe>robo>forge>extra gates. This means your upgrades will be really damn fast with single forge too. When First played Fantasy on Whirlwind this season, by simply chronoboosting heavily into his single forge he was able to stay even in upgrades with Fantasy doing the standard 1/1 with single ebay>2/2 off double ebay build.
3) Double forge is really gas intensive. I personally never liked it together with templar before colossus becuase you would have a point when you needed to both warp in ht's to defend your third and start 3/3, and you just have no gas for it. If you are going to delay 3/3, why go double forge in the first place?
4) If you do the standard double forge at 7-8 minutes, you can't get cannons up in time for widow mine and hellbat drops, which many players are favouring lately as base defense. With a 5-6 minute single forge it's easily doable.
Note that double forge doesn't actually delay your tech very significantly. It's still possible to have a colossus or charge up for medivac timings with it. Also, you can (and should) throw down a second forge later on anyway, which should allow you to be ahead in upgrades of the terran (this depends on when you get the second forge of course) while having all the advantages of the single forge stuff.
Also, i disagree about double forge not working as well if you dont open DT or stargate. If you know your opponent will go for fast expo into medivac timing, the standard fe/3gate robo/double forge colossus works really well. None really goes fe into 2rax medivac, except some reaper expand builds that delay the medivac timing anyway.
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^ What I thought about a few times and might be worth experimenting with is getting this super fast forge to possibly get cannons, and then later adding another forge at about 9:00-10:00. This allows you to get 2 cannons and compensates for the delay on the second forge. I think this may work out nicely with a few adjustments. Probably not a good idea vs any weird bio shove that comes in at about 7 minutes or something, because I think you'd have to cut a few units to get the forge and cannons up + upgrade, but that's probably all there is to it.
This is probably one of the hardest counters to gas first. I never send an early scout in PvT, but when I scout a random player going gas first (barracks finishes at about 3:00 with gas first, which is about 20 seconds later than usual afaik), I get an early forge for cannons.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah i've been doing that for like one year. Hold off aggression with one forge, get the second when he backs out and we both estabilish our third.
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Is there such a thing as 1 base play vs Zerg? (besides the basic 4-gate)
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Italy12246 Posts
Nop, it's incredibly terrible, 4gate included. It's possible to catch people offguard with it but generally it's way, way, WAY worse than 2base allins.
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Hey guys I've searched back and forth through this thread for answers against cannon rush in PvP and after several matches I've finally pulled it off:
http://drop.sc/348468
I tried to do it to him but I just went with a 5-6 gate all in afterwards. Any tips and advice are welcome!
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I have currently 0% winrate vs. zergs and its the only thing that keeps me in platinum atm... i have 55% winrate in mirrors and over 80% vs terrans but vs. zergs i currently sit on 0% winrate...
i mostly play FFE but the zergs economy just gets out of control in every single match... they push early and expand behind it... i get some hallucination scouting but i cant punish the zerg... if i do some FFE into 4gate pressure into tech i get behind because he has like 8 roaches when i warp in my first round of gateway units... if i play some WoL style immortal all in i win on some maps but i dont want to play only all ins and only the same all in especially... i want to get my PvZ stronger so i am ready for diamond zergs
thanks in advance
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On July 11 2013 22:51 sSooG wrote:
I have currently 0% winrate vs. zergs and its the only thing that keeps me in platinum atm... i have 55% winrate in mirrors and over 80% vs terrans but vs. zergs i currently sit on 0% winrate...
i mostly play FFE but the zergs economy just gets out of control in every single match... they push early and expand behind it... i get some hallucination scouting but i cant punish the zerg... if i do some FFE into 4gate pressure into tech i get behind because he has like 8 roaches when i warp in my first round of gateway units... if i play some WoL style immortal all in i win on some maps but i dont want to play only all ins and only the same all in especially... i want to get my PvZ stronger so i am ready for diamond zergs
thanks in advance
I dont really know what you're asking for, you're just making a general statement ^^
If he has enough roaches rdy against your 4 gate go home without losing your units and expand+get your robo
There's several solid macro PvZ styles, just pick one and go with it.
Hallucination isn't really for "punishing" zerg, it's for general scouting and reacting, making sure you have a good unit composition against what he has.
Maybe you take your 3rd too late, maybe you need to do more warp prism harass, maybe your upgrades are falling behind, it's hard to say what's wrong with your macro style with such a generic statement
On July 10 2013 10:42 iMrising wrote:Im having trouble in PvZ and PvT, but its really hard for me just straight up macro game with a zerg. I can only count on All-ins. Im not sure if im supposed to post replays or only ask a question in this thread (or make an OP) but oh well. http://drop.sc/348303 (let me know if there is a problem. I've never posted replays) - I gateway expand, since Im trying to try it out instead of FFE - I snipe his third while losing a few unnecessary units - Mediocre Pheonix control, but I manage to get a few drone and queen kills So from here Im supposed to be ahead, since I've sniped several drones, queens, and have a hatch kill. But from then on, it seems that my macro against zerg is just terrible. I get a third base since I expect the opponent to be recovering from damage. I think I can improve by having 1. earlier colossus, since when he first hit me, I should have a colossus, and it just felt delayed. 2. Or maybe I should take the other third, since there is a choke point there. 3. I forgot sentries. (prob could have teched to HT too)
I'll try to take a look tonight
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Is there anything in PvZ that is even close to the effetiveness of a build such as a standard PvT build like double forge colossus or something?
All FFE builds with some sort of early aggression seem to be extremely gimmicky/unreliable. Phoenix into colossus seems to be focus too much on gateway units, which suck in the late game big time. Zealots suck vs swarm host, but stalkers cost quite a bit of gas and slow down your transition into templar quite a bit. By then, you have to face either ultralisks or broodlords, both of which zealot stalker colossi struggle against. Or something else like a turtling zerg with swarm host, a massive corruptor count, vipers, and tons of static defense to counter drops. I'm not sure going straight into skytoss is any simpler than this.
I have 0 confidence against zerg nowadays. It seems like I'm always always behind - behind in the worker count, bases, upgrades, base defense, army size, etc. In the late game, zerg can get units out much faster since all they need is larva, while protoss requires several tech structures. And if you lose your army, it just takes too long to remake it.
Sometimes I get the feeling I should have chosen terran instead of protoss. It feels like protoss benefits much less from solid play than other races, except for PvT. Seriously, where the hell is your edge in a solid PvZ macro game?
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Italy12246 Posts
I personally liked the build sos was doing at wcs finals, where he was getting a single phoenix to deny scouting, then he went for a void ray to secure a fast third teching to +1 shields after +1 attack along with +1 air weapons. After the third you throw down 2 more stargates, get like 7 void rays up and then transition into chargelot/templar.
If he's going muta you should be fine with the shield and air upgrades along with the 3stargates. Vs roach hydra you can win as long as you hold off his first pushes, as zealot/templar/archon/void ray is really fucking strong against it. vs swarm host you have to buy time with zealot harassment for a colossus transition. You can also do fun stuff like sniping bases with void rays and recalling back, then sending a bunch of zealots to another base while he's panicking and moving out to counter attack.
That said, stargate/4gate/robo expo should do decently too, but you won't be ahead of the z unless you do tons of damage with your phoenixes. It's one of those builds that's always decent, but never amazing.
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On July 10 2013 10:42 iMrising wrote:Im having trouble in PvZ and PvT, but its really hard for me just straight up macro game with a zerg. I can only count on All-ins. Im not sure if im supposed to post replays or only ask a question in this thread (or make an OP) but oh well. http://drop.sc/348303 (let me know if there is a problem. I've never posted replays) - I gateway expand, since Im trying to try it out instead of FFE - I snipe his third while losing a few unnecessary units - Mediocre Pheonix control, but I manage to get a few drone and queen kills So from here Im supposed to be ahead, since I've sniped several drones, queens, and have a hatch kill. But from then on, it seems that my macro against zerg is just terrible. I get a third base since I expect the opponent to be recovering from damage. I think I can improve by having 1. earlier colossus, since when he first hit me, I should have a colossus, and it just felt delayed. 2. Or maybe I should take the other third, since there is a choke point there. 3. I forgot sentries. (prob could have teched to HT too)
Alright I watched the replay
your mistakes are a lot more basic than sth like just getting an earlier colossus.
First of all, you attack at like 8:10 - the typical 1 gate FE ->4gate attack comes at like 6:30, so you're 1:40 late!! thats huuuuuuuuuge. Your first warp in is supposed to be zealots at your proxy pylon, instead you warp in stalkers at your main and chill.
you dont even have a proxy pylon. When a progamer gets his proxy pylon killed by zerglings he doesnt even try to put on any kind of aggression.
Yes you kill his 3rd but no youre not supposed to be ahead.
That's because he played very greedy, he already had his 4th , and while you were killing his 3rd, he's building 12 drones! All the drones that were mining at the 3rd survived and just went to his 4th, now his new 3rd kind of.
Meanwhile youre just going home again to send your army back to your weak 2 base economy, not punishing him for playing so greedy. If I would play I would probably also just go home after killing his 3rd, depending on how weak his army feels, but in that case it would all happen so much sooner, without zerg being able to just get up a super early 4th while droning this hard.
In your case you needed to punish him more, if he has too much : recall home.
So lets look at the situation, you are on 2 base with stargate tech and gateways with 39 (you cut probes while attacking, piling up a lot of overmins) probes
he is on 3 base, starting his lair with 63 drones. 39 probes vs 63 drones, 2 base vs 3.
At this point youre ahead in upgrades, 1-0 with 1-1 3/4 done. BUT: He is starting 1/1 with double evo and the upgrade advantage you have for a bit completely disappears because you didnt build a twilight!
Not that going gateway expand and then focusing on super early forge upgrades is a good idea anyways. If that was what you wanted should just go FFE, a 4 gate with FFE doesnt hit later than you did either, but has better economy and upgrades. The advantage of the Gateway expand is the warpgate tech that is done much faster.
Oh and when you poke with your warpgate attack, dont wall yourself off with a pylon, only do that when youre all inning. Instead build a sentry out of your gateway as second unit after your zealot and put it in the choke. This way youre safe against zergling counter attacks without walling all your probes inside.
But, back to the game
your phoenix +oracle poke does good damage, you kill quite a few drones and a queen, you even catch up in worker count (51 vs 52), so good job there.
BUT: He is on 5 base now, while killing your 3rd with a pretty small roach army because youre too slow and your army composition sucks.
At 14:24 you start your twilight. That's incredibly late, especially considering your super early forge. (Basically the twilight should always be up for when you need to upgrade lvl 2 upgrades. Unless you dont want to cause youre all inning)
Then you also get a robo bay, very late, but when its done you dont even use it for a while.
Your 2nd try of a 3rd is done at 15:47, so thats like at least 3 minutes late.
Your first colossus comes out at 17:37. Good zerg players going for roach hydra would probably already have multiple vipers out.
However he doesnt have vipers nor corruptors against you he just uses roach hydra ling. Which is cause hes not a very good player but on the other hand he doesnt need more to beat your army because yours is small and has no sentries.
If youre gonna delay splash damage that long than vs a hydra roaches and lings you need to rely on force fields. You didnt even build sentries.
If you dislike them and forcefields then theres a few builds you can do, like mass air +chargelots, but stalker (without blink) zealot immortal compositions need them.
So, this was quite a long text, let's recap the most important parts:
A)If you wanna do 1 gate FE into quick gateway pressure you need a proxy pylon and should be warping in near his base as soon as warp gate is done.
Get your forge after your gateways. Theres a few variations of 1 gate FE follow ups (with/without stargate, with without double gas,3 gates / 4 gates, different forge timings etc.) Best thing to do is to just closely analyse a vod or replay of a progamer whos using a style you like. Write down some of the timings, get a feeling for when you should have what.
B) Get a strong army composition. Mass air is good, if youre aggressive chargelot archon can be good in the midgame, mass blink stalker can be good, zealot sentry immortal with heavy upgrades can be good, stalker sentry colossus is good. Your composition wasn't, when zerg can just get close with all his ground army (doesnt matter if its roach ling or roach hydra or roach hydra ling) to a zealot stalker immortal army youre always supposed to lose.
C) Take your 3rd at the appropriate time. This varies a lot depending on what build you do, but as a pointer if you start it after 11 minutes something is definitely going wrong
Sorry if I sound too harsh, I think I always do when I give these kind of critiques but I dont mean to.
Your mistakes being quite basic is actually a great thing, it means that you can improve a lot relatively fast if you manage to fix them.
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Hello everyone, i will be short...
how do you beat late game zergs that mass swarmhost with roach/hydra support, followed by a transition into mass corrupter and some brood-lords?
oh yeah, they also tend to mass spines and spores and then just dig themselves in comfortably.
I never win pvz anymore because i want a macro game, i don't want to cheese or all-in every damn game, but with this strategy the zergs are employing, how do you counter it?
I'am fairly sure every master and grandmaster player knows what i'am talking about. Every zerg uses this strategy at the moment vs toss and why shouldn't they? everybody likes to win.
i've heard airtoss is the way to go but how are you suppose to get the deadly airball up when there are 10000 locusts knocking at your front door all the time?
you need collosus to be able to deal with the locusts..and its so easy for zerg to get 30 corrupters in 1 min while a protoss has to wait ages just to get 12 voids out.. It's so confusing and i would really appreciate if there is anyone who've devised a build order that can counter, or at least give you a fighting chance.
I'am not kidding, my last 15 games vs zerg, ive won 1.. He didn't go for this strategy (ultra,ling) the rest, all losses and it has been this strategy everytime.
here is a replay of my latest massacre vs zerg, please give as much feedback or criticism as you want, i am groving desperate.
http://drop.sc/348547
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I just faced a really weird build. It went for Drilling Claws off 2 bases into mech. The problem was the widow mine drop. The Terran dropped the mines in a scattered pattern throughout my mineral line and they burrowed in one second and obliterated everything. It was like freakin hellbats on steroids.
What am I supposed to do against a build like that? Even pulling probes wouldn't have worked, I'd have lost my mineral line when the probes clumped. But I lost my mineral line even UNclumped, so yeah.
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EPT
