EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 98
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On August 14 2013 00:57 Phrencys wrote: I always open roaches in ZvT instead of speedlings because I'm afraid of hellions roasting my whole army and drones. What exactly makes all pros feel safe going speedlings? I saw Scarlett deny the standard 6 hellion runby pretty decently using queens and partial wallins @ nat, but then how do you defend your 3rd? Aside from making walls like you mentioned you can go for surrounds. Hellions die really fast if you get a surround on them. On creep speedlings are faster than hellions. Off creep the are the same speed unless they try to stutter step. Basically if he tries to dive in to kill your drones and you have speedlings behind your queens he can lose his hellions. He's blind to what he's diving into. Off creep you can surround as well but it takes a bit more finese and some luck and usually quite a few zerglings. Often the terran will set his hellions just outside your creep and look back to his base to macro. If you move command your zerglings to surround the hellions at this point you can kill them. He won't get the attack notification until he's already surrounded. If you're chasing him and he tries to stutter step to kill the zerglings you can get a surround as well. If you're move commanding the zerglings as he tries to stutter step they will close the distance as he stops to attack and you can get a surround. This requires all your attention though and can be risky. Sometimes you won't get it and lose zerglings in the process. This stuff works for 4 to 6 hellions. Anymore than that or blue flame can get dicey. There's always the option of putting down one or two spines at that point. The zerglings ensure he can't do a runby. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
I always open roaches in ZvT instead of speedlings because I'm afraid of hellions roasting my whole army and drones. What exactly makes all pros feel safe going speedlings? I saw Scarlett deny the standard 6 hellion runby pretty decently using queens and partial wallins @ nat, but then how do you defend your 3rd? Most pro's I've been watching lately open gasless. So a few key timings. A standard Terran FE doesn't actually start making Hellions until right around 6:00s. That means 2 Hellion harass around 7:00, 4 Hellion harass around 7:30, and 6 Hellion harass around 8:00. Pro Zs (that i've been watching anyways) have been opening 4-5 Queens and 2x gas at 5:30 -> 100g speed (6:25)-> 2x Evo for ups and blocking (7:00) 250 g 1/1 melee/cara (7:35) -> 100g Lair (8:00). I prefer 5 Queens for better creep and defense. So early Queens give great creep spread and in conjunction with overlords give you great map vision and scouting. So whenever his Hellions approach you'll know exactly which direction he's coming from and you react accordingly. What works very well for me is once I've got my initial creep spread pushed out a bit I keep 2 Queens at my 3rd and throw down a spine as soon as the Hatch is finished. I'll place 1 additional Queen at my Evo choke (natural) and the other 2 Queens will be injecting in my Main/Natural. This way, if 6 Hellions go to your 3rd you have 2 Queens defending and a sunk. If the Hellions go to your natural you grab the injecting Queen to join the other Queen already there and block/defend. | ||
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Mocking
Brazil52 Posts
On August 14 2013 05:08 11B wrote: Most pro's I've been watching lately open gasless. So a few key timings. A standard Terran FE doesn't actually start making Hellions until right around 6:00s. That means 2 Hellion harass around 7:00, 4 Hellion harass around 7:30, and 6 Hellion harass around 8:00. Pro Zs (that i've been watching anyways) have been opening 4-5 Queens and 2x gas at 5:30 -> 100g speed (6:25)-> 2x Evo for ups and blocking (7:00) 250 g 1/1 melee/cara (7:35) -> 100g Lair (8:00). I prefer 5 Queens for better creep and defense. So early Queens give great creep spread and in conjunction with overlords give you great map vision and scouting. So whenever his Hellions approach you'll know exactly which direction he's coming from and you react accordingly. What works very well for me is once I've got my initial creep spread pushed out a bit I keep 2 Queens at my 3rd and throw down a spine as soon as the Hatch is finished. I'll place 1 additional Queen at my Evo choke (natural) and the other 2 Queens will be injecting in my Main/Natural. This way, if 6 Hellions go to your 3rd you have 2 Queens defending and a sunk. If the Hellions go to your natural you grab the injecting Queen to join the other Queen already there and block/defend. 5 queens are quite unusual at the pro-scene because you woul be delaying your expo, so i dont really like this opening, but if you make the 5th queen after you drop your 3rd base (around 6 mins), it can be very useful vs hellions, for creep spread, and to already have a queen when your expo is finished. #Fixed | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
3 queens are quite unusual at the pro-scene because you woul be delaying your expo Completely untrue. The timing works out that you start your 3rd Hat at or just before 6m and start your 5th Queen at around 6:30-6:45.....in time to defend vs 6 Hellions. And 3 Queens IS quite unusual at the pro-scene because the norm is actually 4. The only pro I can really think of, off the top of my head that used 3 Queens is Stephanao. Here's a link I've posted a few times now showcasing Pro level Z vs T executing the build I've just described. Game is Life vs Jjakji in GSL: | ||
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Mocking
Brazil52 Posts
On August 14 2013 06:21 11B wrote: Completely untrue. The timing works out that you start your 3rd Hat at or just before 6m and start your 5th Queen at the same time. And 3 Queens IS quite unusual at the pro-scene because the norm is actually 4. The only pro I can really think of, off the top of my head that used 3 Queens is Stephanao. Here's a link I've posted a few times now showcasing Pro level Z vs T executing the build I've just described. Game is Life vs Jjakji in GSL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPBXTG2BUTA&list=PLgmCLtUkEutLopavzoAzlBn441Kqlx_0D&index=178 Oh, sorry. Yeah, you are right, the normal opening is 4 queens, I was pretty unclear. The 3 queens are the queens after the first and second at your bases. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
 It's actually a pretty solid build and with some good scouting it can transition well into different openings a Terran player throws at you. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
Day9 Daily with it: Game on Bel'shir (And queens, Cant forget those) | ||
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LordImmortala
Korea (South)41 Posts
i've been trying to deal this with swarmhost/lingbane/muta-into ultras and failed how to do this correctely? | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Hi, Im curious as to learning the ZvP style in which I delay my third and instead I opt for fast ling speed to control the midgame, help hold all ins and denying the toss' 3rd. Pretty much the scarlett style with double up lings into infestors then ultras, not necissarily the Leenock 14-15 ultra 3-3 timing, unless its the same thing. Does anyone have general notes and the BO for this? Would be greatly appreciated, cant just go hydroachviper each game. I'd be curious too. I watched some of her WCS games and the Day[9] series on her but I really really really dislike the general build and transition. I'm wondering how much success she's had in the long term with that style. With nothing but Zerglings pre 10:00 into the game (before 1/1 finishes) ANY +1 attack could be devastating and at the very least, delay your 3rd even longer forcing you to spine up and cut drone count. Seems to hurt macro and economy. Hydra, roach, viper eh ^^. I can't remember the last time I even built a Roach Warren vs Protoss. | ||
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massivez
Belgium653 Posts
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On August 14 2013 10:23 LordImmortala wrote: How to deal with terran bio+mines+hellion,hellbats? i've been trying to deal this with swarmhost/lingbane/muta-into ultras and failed how to do this correctely? Swarmhosts are probably not the best of choices, unless your opponent is just not doing drops whatsoever, and is doing like, a Polt style constant pressure on one front. Your upgrades don't coordinate, and with medivac support, the swarmhosts probably won't do a ton of damage. It's better to go with Infestor or heavier into Mutas, because it'll allow you to deal with the medivacs (which are the real backbone of any bio push). And if you commit heavily to mutas, you can deal with mines fairly effectively (provided you know how to micro with an overseer to kill them), as well as deny potential 4th/5th bases with groups of 20-30 mutas. Without any sort of replay, I really can't offer you any sort of substantial help. I can only give you general thoughts as to what may be able to help you out. Generally, the one big thing people forget to do in ZvT, and what ends of killing them, is being aggressive. I know it's hard to defend against biomine, but if you let the Terran take bases without even attempting to stop them, then even making it to Ultra/Infestor isn't going to save you. Every time you win a substantial fight, you should be sending your mutas to kill off turrets, deny bases, and camp production. Otherwise, you'll be rolled over by the macro of a good biomine player. I would highly recommend watching some of scarlett's series' against Alive if you want to see macro alternatives to your current style + Show Spoiler + or some of Jaedong's strategies if you prefer less macro oriented methods of dealing with biomine + Show Spoiler + | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On August 14 2013 19:04 massivez wrote: Hey, wondering about this for sometime. Should i use the unit skins on lings and ovies? I neglected them but in zvz it seems to get me the idea they have more lings then me when we have equal numbers. Maybe its just me. I've actually noticed the exact same thing, and I think it's more of an advantage to you. People like you and I, who don't use the skins, are in the minority of players. That means that while we have a lot of opportunities to see skinless zerglings go up against skinned zerglings, other people will see more of skin lings vs skin lings. Eventually, you'll get used to judging the difference in ling count, and it may actually end up benefiting you. I have won a game or two because my opponent misjudged their ling count versus me. Honestly though, it's more of a personal preference thing. I don't like the skin, so I don't really use it. | ||
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Marioff
9 Posts
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learning88
United States160 Posts
Queens defend very well against reapers and if they decide to mass up reapers, you'll be getting 4 queens anyways which should be able to deal with them. So is it that you zergs have to get gas when they see terran get their gas early? | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
On August 15 2013 04:22 learning88 wrote: I was wondering for ZvT standard BO, when Terran opens with gas like reaper expand, is it considered standard to get gas yourself too? That's what I've been doing for a very long time now but as I think about it, getting ling speed doesn't help fend off reapers since it won't finish in time. So why don't we still go gasless 4 queens? Queens defend very well against reapers and if they decide to mass up reapers, you'll be getting 4 queens anyways which should be able to deal with them. So is it that you zergs have to get gas when they see terran get their gas early? it's much, much easier. also you can kill their reapers if they get greedy and stay at your base. and you can take a quicker 3rd. | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On August 14 2013 22:50 Marioff wrote: How to defened 10 pool speedling with gasless opening ? Once you identify any kind of 10 pool with a gasless opening, you want to throw down a spine at the edge of the creep at your main. Immediately start a queen at your main, while dedicating the rest of your resources to lings to defend against the first 6-8 of your opponents. Once the spine finishes, move it down to your natural and place it so that it can cover the natural hatchery, as well as the queens on the ramp. Constantly produce queens and zerglings with the rest of your minerals, and block off the ramp with your queens. Make sure you place them on hold position, and don't start droning up until you can confirm they're taking a hatchery themselves. Use the extra lings to prevent a surround on your spine, or your queens from taking too much damage. The queens and 1 spine are the key to preventing the speedlings from getting into your main, and keeping your natural hatchery alive. After your opponent takes a natural, or you simply have enough lings to overpower them, place two evos and a roach warren at the ramp, as well as the spine, using the queens to complete the wall-off. Afterwards, proceed with normal gasless play. | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On August 15 2013 04:22 learning88 wrote: I was wondering for ZvT standard BO, when Terran opens with gas like reaper expand, is it considered standard to get gas yourself too? That's what I've been doing for a very long time now but as I think about it, getting ling speed doesn't help fend off reapers since it won't finish in time. So why don't we still go gasless 4 queens? Queens defend very well against reapers and if they decide to mass up reapers, you'll be getting 4 queens anyways which should be able to deal with them. So is it that you zergs have to get gas when they see terran get their gas early? It's really a point of personal preference for most people. Really, getting the speedlings out won't help you that much against someone massing reapers. Obviously it theoretically counters them, but mass queen is going to be your general response to mass reaper, considering that's what you'll have access to. The real threat of going without gas isn't really the reapers, it's usually the followup reaper hellion pressure that can delay, deny, or potentially kill your third base. Lots of players like to get earlier gas, because if you wait until you have 4 queens to take gas, you won't have speedlings in time for a 6 minute third hatchery. Even worse, Terrans have begun to mass up to 10 hellions in order to deny the third even further, and pick off your extra queens to lessen creep spread in the rest of the game. Some players take an early gas to rush out 4 roaches to make sure that their expansion cannot be delayed, and that those extra hellions don't run in and win the game early. So yea, in short, the problem of going 4 queen against a gas opener is that since the factory is out significantly faster, those two extra queens aren't really going to be able to defend against 6-8 hellions with reaper support, which puts your third at risk. And since you should prioritize ling speed over 4 roaches (for scouting purposes, dealing with other types of pushes, counters, ect) that means that you'll basically be stuck with lings and queens to defend, which can be easily out micro'd. Honestly, all your opponent has to do is kite lings with the hellions to ensure it's worth it, because for every pair of lings he kills, that's a drone not mining. | ||
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p0wL
6 Posts
I massively struggle in ZvP against Toss that opens up with double Stargate and goes straigt into Carrier with Voids and/or Phoenix. I have tried Hydra/Corruptor/Infestor, but I feel that once they have a few carriers out theres just nothing that really beats this composition. Isnt there some early bust timing (I imagine somewhere around 10 - 12 min mark) that punishes such play ? Any advice would be greatly appreciated... tired of losing against 70 APM Protoss Q.Q.  thanks ! | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
 I massively struggle in ZvP against Toss that opens up with double Stargate and goes straigt into Carrier with Voids and/or Phoenix. I have tried Hydra/Corruptor/Infestor, but I feel that once they have a few carriers out theres just nothing that really beats this composition. Here's Pro level Z vs a 3 Starport -> early 3 base Protoss. And whats wrong with 70 APM lol? I've got a Masters friend in the 70s!! | ||
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