EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 100
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
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11B
United States188 Posts
Are you asking for a 2 base ZvP Hydra build or a standard 3 base into Hydra opener? | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
In ZvT, I've seen pros make a couple extra queens and fend off the Hellions with that. The Terran pro is always so cautious with his Hellions, but my opponents just run straight into my base and ignore the tickling of the queens, and then they start roasting drones. How do I punish this? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 19 2013 02:10 Salivanth wrote: I'm having trouble against Hellions in ZvT. In ZvT, I've seen pros make a couple extra queens and fend off the Hellions with that. The Terran pro is always so cautious with his Hellions, but my opponents just run straight into my base and ignore the tickling of the queens, and then they start roasting drones. How do I punish this? You should always have a double Evo by the ramp so you can block runbys by putting queens in hold position right in the opening. Or have lings on top of ramp | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On August 18 2013 23:43 11B wrote: @ Zheryn Are you asking for a 2 base ZvP Hydra build or a standard 3 base into Hydra opener? Pretty quick tech but still take a third at like 7 minutes or something? I don't want to do it like a 2 base all in but I'm not really comfortable with the late tech that comes with super early 3 bases. | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
On August 17 2013 23:34 blade55555 wrote: Hydra/swarmhost/ultra/infestor is really strong versus that kind of play, or just hydra/swarmhost/infestor. Hey, Blade. Can you please expand a bit on that? General playstyle. Is it battle of attrition or more aggressive? How many Swarmhosts, how many Infestors? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 19 2013 03:18 ReMinD_ wrote: Hey, Blade. Can you please expand a bit on that? General playstyle. Is it battle of attrition or more aggressive? How many Swarmhosts, how many Infestors? I actually a guide based on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408919 | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On August 19 2013 02:33 Salivanth wrote: What about maps like Akilon Wastes, where there's no way to do that? Do I need to make a bunch of speedlings? I'm pretty sure I've seen games where the Zerg hasn't done that and the Hellions still haven't done anything other than poke/kill a couple of tumors. you can do a 4 queen gasless opening, get 5:30 2x gas into lingspeed, 6:00 3rd base + 5th queen. on open maps like akilon you can build a spine to your evo wall + if need 6 slow lings. on maps where 2 evos wall off better you can skip the spine imo and just get 6-8 slow lings there to block. but if you have problems with helion runbys just get a spine at your natural next to your evos. the timings are vs CC first btw. vs reaper into helions you should get your 3rd a bit later and go for 6 queens or 5 + 1-2 spines or 3 queen with lingspeed. get 3rd before first helions are out though since after that its hard to get a drone there without lingspeed. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
What about maps like Akilon Wastes Any map like this (wide ramp) takes 4 evo's to completely block or 3 Evo's + 2 Queens. A normal gasless Z opener throws down 2 evo's at 7 minutes for 1/1 ups anyways, so simply thrown down 1 extra evo. Sure it sacrifices a tiny bit of eco but that should top any Hellion runbys. Remember, 1st 2 Hellions start right around 6:00 with an additional 2 pair popping out every 30s after that. Even if you start the Evo's a bit later you'll be fine. Pretty quick tech but still take a third at like 7 minutes or something? I'll give you a basic build order which can be used to transition into the style and question you have. Keep in mind I bumped up the 3rd Hatch time slightly. I don't see the need for such a late Hatch. Earlier is still quite safe in most cases. And 5:20 is about as late as I like. Normally I'm at 4:00 (albeit slightly different b/o). - 9 ovie - 15 pool - 16 Hatch - 15 ovie - 1st Queen - 18 > 2 sets of lings (personal choice > I grab both Xal Naga towers > find scouting probe > and enemy base) - drone drone drone - 22 - 24 ovie - 2nd Queen at Main - drone drone drone - 31ish ovie - @ 5:20 seconds START your 3rd Hatch (another expo) and start your 3rd Queen at Natural Hatch (lay creep walk to 3rd) - @ 5:20s take 2x gas - drone drone drone - ovies as need at this point - @ 6:25 seconds start Lair (1st 100g) - drone drone drone - @ 6:50 start Ling speed - @ 7:00 start RW - @ 7:10 2x gas - @ 7:15 2x evo +1/1 - NLT 8:00 start Hydra Den This build will keep you safe vs most openers......such as 9:20 seconds Immortal/Zealot +1 pushes and definitely vs later Immortal/Sentry/Zealot +1 pushes. The key part of the build is when to drone and when to make units. Versus an earlier Immortal push of some sort it's best to cut drones at around 52-54, or, 2 base mineral saturation, 2 base gas saturaion, and a 3rd base running around 9-13 drones. Ideally you want to work your way up to 3 base full mineral and gas saturation while teching towards Hive (finished around 12:00) and immediately start making Vipers. You push out with huge amount of lings/Hydra/Roach with Abduct on Colossi and BC. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
what about a skyterran thorzain army, in theory (NEVER played vs one)? viking/raven/battlecruiser/tank. If you have a stonger composition, enlighten me on it, and how to beat it. Thanks in advance EDIT: My friend recommended the following composition: queen, ultra, infestor, bl, corrupter sounds pretty good | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On August 19 2013 07:49 11B wrote: Any map like this (wide ramp) takes 4 evo's to completely block or 3 Evo's + 2 Queens. A normal gasless Z opener throws down 2 evo's at 7 minutes for 1/1 ups anyways, so simply thrown down 1 extra evo. Sure it sacrifices a tiny bit of eco but that should top any Hellion runbys. Remember, 1st 2 Hellions start right around 6:00 with an additional 2 pair popping out every 30s after that. Even if you start the Evo's a bit later you'll be fine. I'll give you a basic build order which can be used to transition into the style and question you have. Keep in mind I bumped up the 3rd Hatch time slightly. I don't see the need for such a late Hatch. Earlier is still quite safe in most cases. And 5:20 is about as late as I like. Normally I'm at 4:00 (albeit slightly different b/o). - 9 ovie - 15 pool - 16 Hatch - 15 ovie - 1st Queen - 18 > 2 sets of lings (personal choice > I grab both Xal Naga towers > find scouting probe > and enemy base) - drone drone drone - 22 - 24 ovie - 2nd Queen at Main - drone drone drone - 31ish ovie - @ 5:20 seconds START your 3rd Hatch (another expo) and start your 3rd Queen at Natural Hatch (lay creep walk to 3rd) - @ 5:20s take 2x gas - drone drone drone - ovies as need at this point - @ 6:25 seconds start Lair (1st 100g) - drone drone drone - @ 6:50 start Ling speed - @ 7:00 start RW - @ 7:10 2x gas - @ 7:15 2x evo +1/1 - NLT 8:00 start Hydra Den This build will keep you safe vs most openers......such as 9:20 seconds Immortal/Zealot +1 pushes and definitely vs later Immortal/Sentry/Zealot +1 pushes. The key part of the build is when to drone and when to make units. Versus an earlier Immortal push of some sort it's best to cut drones at around 52-45, or, 2 base mineral saturation, 2 base gas saturaion, and a 3rd base running around 9-13 drones. Ideally you want to work your way up to 3 base full mineral and gas saturation while teching towards Hive (finished around 12:00) and immediately start making Vipers. You push out with huge amount of lings/Hydra/Roach with Abduct on Colossi and BC. Thanks! Yeah, I guess the third doesn't have to be that late, I just didn't know the timings. Is it tough to defend 2base 4gate pressure builds without ling speed tho? I'll try this build out when I get home today  <3 | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Is it tough to defend 2base 4gate pressure builds without ling speed tho? I'll try this build out when I get home today <3 Well a delayed Hatch build actually makes it much more difficult to defend vs Gateway expand > into 4 gate pressure. The reason being is your Hatchery is still morphing at around 6:45 - 7:00, about the time they start attacking with their first 5 zealots and additional ones get warped in around 7:20 - 7:40 (5 zealots and then 9 zealots respectively > in most cases). Starting a 3rd Hatchery at 4:00 finishes at 5:40 and coincides with Queen injects and if you add 5:40 + 40 seconds inject time + 25 seconds ling morph time gets you the magic number of 6:45 seconds lings are finished (from 3rd Hatch). So basically an early Hatch gives more larvae which means more units to defend with. So it's actually safer (my opinion) ^^. So here is an alternative opening with 3rd Hatch starting at 4:00:+ Show Spoiler + - 9 ovie - 15 pool - 16 hatch - 15 Queen - 17 1 set lings - drone to 22 supply - 3:30 send drone (from main) to 3rd expo - @ 4:00 3rd hatch - 21 supply 2nd Queen - 23 supply ovie - inject with 1st Queen, walk to natural and lay creep tumor -> walk to 3rd - 3rd Hatch 50% finished start 3rd Queen at natural. - drone to 28-31 - ovie at 28-31 supply - drone drone drone - @ 5:20 2x gas - drone drone drone - @ 7:00 start Lair -> not with 1st 100g. We delay a bit to save more minerals to spend on larave,supply. - ovies as needed - drone to 60-63 supply (53-56 drones which aint drone heavy but it's more than the average Protoss same point in the game) - @ 7:00 2x evo - @ 7:20 2x gas - @ 7:35 start +1/+1 melee/carapace - @ 7:50 start ling speed - @ 8:20 Den ** so feel free to add a RW i there if you want... I'm just not thrilled about getting too many early because they suffer a bit with sentries/Immortals/FF. With lower sentry count roaches can be good again, i.e., after Hydra/ling pushes initial attack and kill sentries. - Infestation Pit no later than 9:00 or vs early Colossus Spire 1st -> Pit when you can afford it. - make zerglings to 85 supply (goal is 46-50 Lings) - make hydra's to 110 supply (goal is 12 Hydra) - as you're accumulating $$ throw down 2 more Hatches (usually in the 9:30 - 9:45 range) and 2 more Queens. - this owns all 10:00 + 2 base Immortal pushes while allowing you to simultaneously macro with the ability to quickly add more drones/gas/tech. - also, this allows for a nice 10:00 push of your own against any early 3rd play from Protoss. - vs earlier aggression like 2 Immortal / WPrism / 12 zealot +1 push around 9:20s you've got to start your Lair right at 6:30 in order to get 7-8 hydra out by the time he attacks. Also, you'll need to change up the timing of how you spend your gas. I.e., Lair, followed by speed, followed by hydra den. Basically you only get 400g to spend by 7:40 -> and you need to prioritize the above 3 first. This means you need to delay double evo's by about 45 seconds or simply opt to just get either +1 attack or +1 carapace (starting evo @ 7:00). - vs even earlier aggression like gateway into 4 gate pressure around 6:45 (5 zealots and 4 more warping in around 7:20) you still get 2x gas @ 5:30 (3rd/4th gas around time of Lair) but you'll need to cut drone production at around 41-42 supply (timing works that you take 2x gas a bit after). This gives you around 32-33 drones and enough supply room to make zerglings all the way up to the high 50s (30-36zerglings). @ 100g start speed 1st -> then 1/1 -> then a delayed Lair (8:00-8:15ish). | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On August 19 2013 16:17 11B wrote: Well a delayed Hatch build actually makes it much more difficult to defend vs Gateway expand > into 4 gate pressure. The reason being is your Hatchery is still morphing at around 6:45 - 7:00, about the time they start attacking with their first 5 zealots and additional ones get warped in around 7:20 - 7:40 (5 zealots and then 9 zealots respectively > in most cases). Starting a 3rd Hatchery at 4:00 finishes at 5:40 and coincides with Queen injects and if you add 5:40 + 40 seconds inject time + 25 seconds ling morph time gets you the magic number of 6:45 seconds lings are finished (from 3rd Hatch). So basically an early Hatch gives more larvae which means more units to defend with. So it's actually safer (my opinion) ^^. So here is an alternative opening with 3rd Hatch starting at 4:00:+ Show Spoiler + - 9 ovie - 15 pool - 16 hatch - 15 Queen - 17 1 set lings - drone to 22 supply - 3:30 send drone (from main) to 3rd expo - @ 4:00 3rd hatch - 21 supply 2nd Queen - 23 supply ovie - inject with 1st Queen, walk to natural and lay creep tumor -> walk to 3rd - 3rd Hatch 50% finished start 3rd Queen at natural. - drone to 28-31 - ovie at 28-31 supply - drone drone drone - @ 5:20 2x gas - drone drone drone - @ 7:00 start Lair -> not with 1st 100g. We delay a bit to save more minerals to spend on larave,supply. - ovies as needed - drone to 60-63 supply (53-56 drones which aint drone heavy but it's more than the average Protoss same point in the game) - @ 7:00 2x evo - @ 7:20 2x gas - @ 7:35 start +1/+1 melee/carapace - @ 7:50 start ling speed - @ 8:20 Den ** so feel free to add a RW i there if you want... I'm just not thrilled about getting too many early because they suffer a bit with sentries/Immortals/FF. With lower sentry count roaches can be good again, i.e., after Hydra/ling pushes initial attack and kill sentries. - Infestation Pit no later than 9:00 or vs early Colossus Spire 1st -> Pit when you can afford it. - make zerglings to 85 supply (goal is 46-50 Lings) - make hydra's to 110 supply (goal is 12 Hydra) - as you're accumulating $$ throw down 2 more Hatches (usually in the 9:30 - 9:45 range) and 2 more Queens. - this owns all 10:00 + 2 base Immortal pushes while allowing you to simultaneously macro with the ability to quickly add more drones/gas/tech. - also, this allows for a nice 10:00 push of your own against any early 3rd play from Protoss. - vs earlier aggression like 2 Immortal / WPrism / 12 zealot +1 push around 9:20s you've got to start your Lair right at 6:30 in order to get 7-8 hydra out by the time he attacks. Also, you'll need to change up the timing of how you spend your gas. I.e., Lair, followed by speed, followed by hydra den. Basically you only get 400g to spend by 7:40 -> and you need to prioritize the above 3 first. This means you need to delay double evo's by about 45 seconds or simply opt to just get either +1 attack or +1 carapace (starting evo @ 7:00). - vs even earlier aggression like gateway into 4 gate pressure around 6:45 (5 zealots and 4 more warping in around 7:20) you still get 2x gas @ 5:30 (3rd/4th gas around time of Lair) but you'll need to cut drone production at around 41-42 supply (timing works that you take 2x gas a bit after). This gives you around 32-33 drones and enough supply room to make zerglings all the way up to the high 50s (30-36zerglings). @ 100g start speed 1st -> then 1/1 -> then a delayed Lair (8:00-8:15ish). I always thought you "had" to get metabolic boost to deal with gate expands. Do you recommend not doing that and just produce slowlings? | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
 ). Most people prefer to get gas first but I've found I do just fine w/out it "early" (I'll start speed at 6:25). Some food for thought. A Hatch started at 4:00 will be completed 1:20s quicker than a Hatch started at 5:20. In that time 2 full inject cycles could be performed on the early Hatch and 1larvae every 15s naturally for about 5 larvae. So that's what? 4 larvae per inject x2 + 5 = 13 more larvae from the early Hatch. That's quite a few more drones and or zerglings. A 1 gate expand, into 4 gate pressure will also be lighter on probes than normal because they put down the extra gates earlier than normal and are already making units. So long as you hold with your initial slow lings (which you should! I mean, you have 3 Hatch / 3 Queen injects available) you will be in a strong position. Also, by starting speed at 6:25 with the 1st 100g means it will finish around 8:15 which also coincides with (approximately) the Protoss's 3rd Warp-in cycle (1st 6:40-50s, 2nd 7:20-30s, 3rd 8:10-20s). With the extra larvae from the early Hatch you would have enough zerglings to kill his 1st 5 zealots (1st warp in) and 2nd 4 zealots (2nd warp in) and kill any proxy pylons. | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On August 19 2013 21:21 DarKcS wrote: Can someone link me a replay of 3 hatch or 3 hatch before pool vs CC first Terran so I can see proper muta/bane timings? They do not change if you plan on going for standard muta ling bane. It's still speed, evo chambers when you have 150 gas on 2 gases, lair, next 50 gas bane nest, next gas on spire (you can squeeze in ovy speed). | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On August 19 2013 19:13 Zheryn wrote: I always thought you "had" to get metabolic boost to deal with gate expands. Do you recommend not doing that and just produce slowlings? You need metabolic boost in case the Protoss doesn't expand and 4 gates you or something. If you know they are going to expand you can delay gas and get roaches out in time for any two base agression. | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
On August 19 2013 23:44 Karpfen wrote: They do not change if you plan on going for standard muta ling bane. It's still speed, evo chambers when you have 150 gas on 2 gases, lair, next 50 gas bane nest, next gas on spire (you can squeeze in ovy speed). If you don't scout hellions can I go lair before speed? Or is that risky. | ||
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