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On August 06 2013 06:18 StatixEx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 05:30 Decendos wrote:On August 06 2013 04:54 StatixEx wrote:
Lets assume you can build the perfect army for the first engagement. how do you beat mass voidrays as a zerg? What would be the composition you would need and what should you be remaxing on assuming you only have half the resources (larva/mins/gas) than before? depends on his support units. theoretically queen + infestor laughs at voids. but there is this unit zerg has no direct counter to: HTs. so you will need to add SHs in lategame. either go for boring but more reliable SH + spores + viper turtle or you go for a more interesting but also weaker in a direct engagement and on a timer ultra, hydra, viper, SH, infestor. but no matter what you do....without SHs you will lose the game vs lategame P since everything else is easily countered. ye like i said forget everything all whats coming and is going to come is void rays. Best comp is ? ? ? i say this as i played a game the other day (and thinking about it, when mass void come i always lose) and the guy built 8 cannons around his bases walling him in and then sat back and massed rays. When i went to push i saw this wallin and pulled back to get the blords out but of course they didnt stand much of a chance and because id gone for a roach timing i had a pointless ground army. the game went on for me to mass corruptors, corruptor muta. corruptor muta hydra corruptor hydra/infester . . you name it, it was a great game really but i just couldnt do the damage. at one point i killed the army but he had a load of rays sitting back at home the same thing happened in another game, just mass voids. im not looking for any help in my scouting and all that cos i knew it was coming and why im not posting the replay, i dont want to hear how the rest of my game went. anytime i see a toss try their hardest to deny scouting and wall in its mass air. the game ended with me taking 7 bases vs his 3 over an hr. all i want to know is, if you were to make a perfect composition with a remax of 50% of what you had, what would you do?
yeah if thats the case take 2 more bases than he is on, get mass queen + infestor (with NP: helps vs VRs themselves but also if he recalls the voids that are NPed at that moment wont be recalled!) + SHs. also always get roachspeed to defend WP, you will have the money. once you get a big army just nydus in front of his base, take 3-4 overseers with you in case of DT and just slowly kill him with your SHs. its boring but zerg has bad antiair and bad lategame in HOTS other than mass SHs.
as for your remax question: remax on the exakt same units.
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Sorry but this still doesn't really answer the question =/ Basically what timing should I be watching out for to see some sort of 7:30 +1 4gate/7gate pressure? Forge spinning at 4:00? 5:00?
Heh. I did answer the question ^^. Just gonna reiterate a little bit. When you spot an early forge spinning the only information it gives you is that early aggression is on its way. But tbh, this doesn't have to be the case. It could be geared towards a more macro oriented quick 3/4 base and more powerful 12m and 14m pushes.
It has absolutely no relevance on the "exact" or even on the "expected" time of the Protoss push. Take my #3 Parting Immortal build above. Check out the VoD and you'll see Parting starts upgrading his forge at 5:00. With 3X chrono he could potentially get +1 at 7:00. Does he do that? Nope. W/out any Chrono's on the forge (which he doesn't) he would still finish +1 before 8:00. Does he attack at 8 or 9:00? No. He doesn't actually arrive at the zergs 3rd base until right around 10:00.
The point? He started +1 at 5:00 and didn't attack till 5minutes later. So any attempt at trying to align a projected early timing attack with the start of a spinning forge just won't work. You have to rely on overlord scouting to provide you with gas timing and probe count because these are the key indicators. It's nice to actually see the WarpGs and Robotics, etc, etc......but you don't always get that much info. Probe count plus gas timing is where it's at.
I'd suggesting copying, or creating some of your own build orders that can transition well into anything you scout, or are unable to scout > meaning you have to prepare for everything.
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Hi, I've got a question for you guys: I'd like to experiment with ling-ultra ZvP (Jaedong/Leenock) style as I found this BO to be incredibly powerful, however I'm struggling with 2 base all ins such as the immortal sentry or the 2 immos 2 colos push.
Is this style safe vs this kind of all ins and how should I handle them? I'd like to know as well if this ZvP builds is still a reliable one or if it went out of fashion for some reason these last weeks?
Thank you 
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On August 06 2013 20:14 DjayEl wrote:Hi, I've got a question for you guys: I'd like to experiment with ling-ultra ZvP (Jaedong/Leenock) style as I found this BO to be incredibly powerful, however I'm struggling with 2 base all ins such as the immortal sentry or the 2 immos 2 colos push. Is this style safe vs this kind of all ins and how should I handle them? I'd like to know as well if this ZvP builds is still a reliable one or if it went out of fashion for some reason these last weeks? Thank you
From what I've heard, fast ling upgrades steamroll all ins. The reason being zealots counter lings only when they're ahead on upgrades, and when the lings are equal or the lings are ahead, there's almost nothing the toss can do in form of aggression to stop this. Plus lings are inexpensive and you can save gas for, say infestors or bank for ultras.
(it's not a BO, more like a playstyle. If you have the order of things to make THEN it's a BO.)
With that said I'd actually like to see a basic BO for this; say just the Evo and expo timings, also with lair and give and etc. even queens.
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On August 06 2013 15:53 IronDragon wrote:
Is there the possibility of luring your opponent into a huge burrowed surround with roach-hydra-baneling-viper-ultra-ling?
Vs toss its very gimmicky. Vs Terran though, if you unburrow surround a terran, it should cost him the engagement and force him to lift off he he has the time.
Plus you should only burrow surround with roach ling bane ultras. Hydras and infestors won't work because they'll jump right in the fray. They should always stay back.
Ling burrow surrounds are also gimmicky vs Zerg because of overseer, making it also rather gimmicky.
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Thank you for your answers, this pretty much covers all what I was looking for.
Only one question remains: do you know if, as we speak, this build is still played/considered reliable at high level?
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On August 07 2013 02:28 DjayEl wrote:
Thank you for your answers, this pretty much covers all what I was looking for.
Only one question remains: do you know if, as we speak, this build is still played/considered reliable at high level?
Haven't seen in it pro play for quite some while but I'm pretty sure it's still viable, but not as facerollingly much. Still good though.
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Very interesting. Thanks!
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Just make sure you're getting air upgrades/greater spire while you're pushing with Ling Ultra. Protosses have figured out that Immortal/Archon counters it really hard, so when they push heavy into Immortal/Archon, switch to Infestor Brood Lord and push to win before Tempests are out.
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Hey. I just played about three games in a row against terran that went early banshee+cloak(4-5) and hellions. The they went into banshee+raven+hellion composition. I found this really difficult and annoying to play against. What do you think is the best way to fight this? getting fourth up is hard and ravens can cause such a huge damage and banshees kill any roach play.
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On August 06 2013 15:53 IronDragon wrote:
Is there the possibility of luring your opponent into a huge burrowed surround with roach-hydra-baneling-viper-ultra-ling?
Not really. Protoss and Zerg will always have an observer/overseer with their army once the necessary tech is unlocked. You may be able to surprise a terran, but if you could reliably hide burrowed units from him it's more cost efficient to just burrow a few banelings here and there to melt clumps of marines instead of burrowing the whole army.
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mid-high Masters Zerg here. how the fuck are you meant to stop 8/8/8? I went pool first and still got destroyed
EDIT: Reapers hit before queens or lings are out :/
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Hello all, I just have a quick question i wanted to ask. Does anyone know the standard time to get 1 1 upgrades in ZvT and ZvP?
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On August 08 2013 04:56 RPR_Tempest wrote:
mid-high Masters Zerg here. how the fuck are you meant to stop 8/8/8? I went pool first and still got destroyed
EDIT: Reapers hit before queens or lings are out :/
high master low gm heres what i do
usually with a drone scout you either find and cancel the rax or if u see gas and low scv in main you can cancel your natural and build a hatch in their base, have 100% winrate since then (props to catz)
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mid-high Masters Zerg here. how the fuck are you meant to stop 8/8/8? I went pool first and still got destroyed
EDIT: Reapers hit before queens or lings are out :/
This is actually quite easy to hold ^^. But first, a question. How did you get destroyed with going pool first,heh? So how to counter this? A slightly less greedy -> standard Z vs T Hatch 1st opening. And I mean only "slightly". And i think it goes w/out saying, but I'll say it!, don't rally any drones to expansion. Keep them in your main for quite some time.
- 9 Ovie
- 15 Hatchery
- 15 Pool -> completes at 3:40, about the same time the 1st Reaper hits your mineral line.
- 16, 17 Drone
- 17 Ovie
- 17 Queen
- 19 -> 4 set of Lings
- 23 2nd Queen Expansion
- 25 Ovie
- 4:15 1x gas - later gas because we'll lose some initial mining time microing some drones and we need more $$ to afford non stop Queens and enough to start speed at exactly 100g.
- drone to 28
- Non stop Zerglings
- 1st Set of Queens injects then defends at ramp.
- 4X more Queens (6X total) -> 2 at a time in succession from each Hatch.
- @ 100g get Zergling speed then pull gas.
So how does the game look at this point? His 1st Reaper starts harassing you around 3:40 but you get 4 lings out at 4:05. With good micro you don't lose any drones. I mean, it's ONE Reaper. I like to grab 3 drones -> chase -> and pull back the injured ones. Then grab 3 more drones and repeat the process -> by which time Lings are out.
At 4:30 seconds Terran will only have about 13 Scv (just finished the 13th too!) and this is also the approximate timing that the 2nd Reaper joins the 1st and reach your main base ramp (4:30). At this point you'll have 8 Zerglings and your 1st Queen pops out, followed closely behind by your 2nd.
Around 5:20s is the average time he has 4 Reapers to your ramp. Keep in mind these times are with an extremely close Proxy and follow up barracks. Here is a perfectly executed 8/8/8 owning Zerg: http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/376782756?t=40m . So at 5:20s you'll have 10 zerglins, started Speed, 2 Queens and your 3rd Queen just popping, followed by a 4th Queen shortly after (less 10s). You'll have 19 drones (plus expo) to his 15-17 Scv.
At this point I like to add 4-5 drones (plus we'll be accumulating some extra larvae because you prioritize Queens) because at the next cycle of things, which is 6:10s we'll be defending with 4Queens, 12+ zerglings, a 5th and 6th Queen almost finished vs 6 Reapers and speed should be finished in about 30s -> before his next cycle of Reapers.
Simply flood 2 hatch speedlings and thats GG.
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Hi everyone. I asked this on the Simple Questions but nobody has responded.
I always hotkey my eggs into my groups. For example, I just morphed 10 larva into zerglings (still in egg form) and I hotkey them into 1 along with my zerglings that are on the map. However, there are times when I press 1 1, the camera would shift to an area that is between my lings that are on the map and the lings that are being morphed instead of my lings that are on the map. Is there a way to fix this?
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On August 09 2013 12:46 learning88 wrote:
Hi everyone. I asked this on the Simple Questions but nobody has responded.
I always hotkey my eggs into my groups. For example, I just morphed 10 larva into zerglings (still in egg form) and I hotkey them into 1 along with my zerglings that are on the map. However, there are times when I press 1 1, the camera would shift to an area that is between my lings that are on the map and the lings that are being morphed instead of my lings that are on the map. Is there a way to fix this?
No there is not a way to fix this other then having your screen be near the zerglings.
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What should I be aiming for in terms of saturation? I'm watching Suppy and he's going 16-17 on minerals on each base. Is that enough?
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EPT
