What should I be aiming for in terms of saturation? I'm watching Suppy and he's going 16-17 on minerals on each base. Is that enough?
That's perfectly fine. Some approximate averages: 16 drones on 8 blue minerals nets in the range of 670-680 minerals per minute. 18 drones on 8 averages in the 700-710 mpm, while 20 drones on 8 averages in the 745-755 mpm.
So 18 drones only nets you +25 mpm over 16 which means it takes you 4 in game minutes to get back your investment in 2xtra drones (50*2=100). Likewise, 20 drones nets you around 70 mpm more than 16 which takes you 3 in game minutes to get back your investment -> 4xtra drones (50*4=200).
So yea, 16 drones per mineral patch is fine. People with more than 16 are more than likely keep a few extra around for evo's, hydra dens, etc. Some people like to over saturate in preparation for an expansion but tbh, I'm not a fan of that. We can already see the extra drones don't add that much so I'd prefer to bank that money into a quicker Hatchery, then drone it up.
On August 11 2013 08:31 Dice17 wrote: Hello I am just wondering if the basic openings for each match up are still up to date? Trying to relearn the game again.
ZvP: If they go for GE, You can go for a hatch first or pool first, with a gas shortly after and pull drones off gas when you can afford zergling speed. Take your third when they take their natural. Vs FFE, a pool first into fast 3 base with 6:00 double gas. 15 pool 16 hatch 21 hatch is what I do
ZvT if they open with reaper, I go gas into 3 queen, pull drones after speed from gas and get an expo (3rd) from 6-7 minutes. Otherwise I go 4 queens with a 5-6 3rd.
ZvZ: anything goes. early pools , being 10 pool baneling, 7 pool or double spine rushes. You can also go for 15pool 16 hatch 16 gas (which is what I do), or some hatch first action.
If you face a random and cant scout right away, a hatch first actualy works. Really you can even go 7-10 pool as many randoms cheese and not scout even if they macro. Really anything works.
On August 10 2013 20:48 Swisslink wrote: So... I don't really need help, but is it possible Derelict Watcher is bugged as fuck?
He needs 2 Pylons, to completely prevent me from attacking his probe or his cannon, how is this even possible? >_>
Really if he does that he has no follow up unless if he brings another probe for a cannon on the low ground. Just build a spine on your creep away from the cannon, then push forward with a spine + queen. place a tumor close to his pylons so you can move that spine up to get the inevitable spines on the low ground.
Hello I am just wondering if the basic openings for each match up are still up to date? Trying to relearn the game again.
They are still pretty similar and or viable, even if they've changed a bit. DilemaH gave, at least Imo, most of the current standards. The only slight variation I can think of is in Z vs T. More recently lot's of Pro's seem to be going some form of Hatch > Pool > 2x gas at 5:30 > 4-5 total Queens > 3rd Hatch at 6:00.
1st 100g speed > 2x Evo at 7:00 for 1/1 ups at 7:35-7:40 > Lair at 8:00 > Bling nest when Lair half done > Bling speed > mass Lings/Bling with next transition into Muta. Some pro's get up 3rd/4th gases quicker while others opt for a delayed 7:45ish 3rd/4th gas which lets them get a 4/5 Hatch finished nlt 9:30 mark. Delayed Muta but extreme Ling/Bling flood. The old standard seemed more geared towards 17/18 gas > speed > leave 1 drone mining > transition from there.
And yea, Z vs Z is always a crap shoot so to speak. Anything goes. A popular choice I've been seeing lately is delaying gas for quite some time while getting 4 Queens up early which help with early creep, injects, and defending an expansion with 2 evo's, 1/2 sunk and 2 Queens blocking. Lay 2 creeps then save energy for Transfuse. This set up pretty much owns all early speedling/bling rushes. Well, maybe not extreme 8,9,10,11 pool versions, but even then,you can still hold.
And to throw in my 2 cents, I'm not a fan of the current Z vs P standard just because I think Roaches pretty much suck in the MU. I've got my own modified builds but I won't list those because they are not "standard" ^^.
In response to common openers, how does a 10 pool work vs a toss' GE or FFE? I havent tried it out much but I like doing it, mainly when it goes into a macro game. I feel like I mess up protoss timings and cant get all ined as much.
On August 12 2013 01:12 DilemaH wrote: In response to common openers, how does a 10 pool work vs a toss' GE or FFE? I havent tried it out much but I like doing it, mainly when it goes into a macro game. I feel like I mess up protoss timings and cant get all ined as much.
Vs a gate expand I feel it should do no damage unless the protoss skips zealot and not scout.
I think it's good vs FFE as it normally delays their expo and forces a cannon in their mineral line in the main. Some maps though the protoss can just wall off and the cannon will finish and not force this though.
I don't know the rules on making threads about balance anymore, so I figure I would post this here instead. Is it a common agreement amongst zerg and terran players, more specifically pros, that widow mines are imbalanced? In theory and in practice they seem very, very, very difficult to deal with.
Essentially, they are a short ranged cloaked tank that also hit air and cost 1/4 of the resources. To add to this, they take up less space in dropships and can be built much more quickly because of their shorter build time and reactors.
Does zerg need better mobile detection? Do mines need much lower hp (could trade hp for increased firing rate)? Is their range too ambiguous and too much of an issue for the zerg race? The only things that can battle them effectively are hydra with range upgrade, or broodlords (or arguably barrel rolling ultras through them). The way units clump up in the game they push each other around a bit too, so even if you have units with more range-they get nudged into mine range and still go off.
Saccing overlords with speed and lings doesn't seem to cut it.
On August 12 2013 12:25 KingofGods wrote: Roach / Hydra compositions laugh at mines. But that composition is hard to make work against the other terran stuff.
Jaedong's biggest (possibly only) mistake in those games was no transition into infestors and or ultras.
i'm not of the opinion that going into infestors or ultras helps zerg's cause against the terran 4m
On August 12 2013 12:25 KingofGods wrote: Roach / Hydra compositions laugh at mines. But that composition is hard to make work against the other terran stuff.
Jaedong's biggest (possibly only) mistake in those games was no transition into infestors and or ultras.
i'm not of the opinion that going into infestors or ultras helps zerg's cause against the terran 4m
I'm in the opinion that transitionning into muta/ling/bane/infestor/ultra once you get 20 mutas is the best game plan in macro ZvT biomine. But you cant lose any muta. Every muta loss is a later hive...
Well, as I said on the 3/3 marines topic, maybe zerg should have a different gameplan.
Like, ling/infestor defense for a fast 3/3 + ultra, and then add in mutalisks to get the perfect composition of ling/bane/muta/infestors/ultra ? The good thing is, terran players will always add marauders early on if you are rushing to hive, and muta are needed against medivac/marauders. So that'd be cool.
On August 12 2013 12:12 MarlieChurphy wrote: I don't know the rules on making threads about balance anymore, so I figure I would post this here instead. Is it a common agreement amongst zerg and terran players, more specifically pros, that widow mines are imbalanced? In theory and in practice they seem very, very, very difficult to deal with.
Essentially, they are a short ranged cloaked tank that also hit air and cost 1/4 of the resources. To add to this, they take up less space in dropships and can be built much more quickly because of their shorter build time and reactors.
Does zerg need better mobile detection? Do mines need much lower hp (could trade hp for increased firing rate)? Is their range too ambiguous and too much of an issue for the zerg race? The only things that can battle them effectively are hydra with range upgrade, or broodlords (or arguably barrel rolling ultras through them). The way units clump up in the game they push each other around a bit too, so even if you have units with more range-they get nudged into mine range and still go off.
Saccing overlords with speed and lings doesn't seem to cut it.
JD just got 4-0'd by Polt in the WCS Finals. Even one game where he was 170 supply to 90 for the last 10 minutes of it.
I wouldnt post them here. Go to the designated balance thread in general. Keep this thread for the game as it is now, as opposed to how we want it to be.
On August 12 2013 12:25 KingofGods wrote: Roach / Hydra compositions laugh at mines. But that composition is hard to make work against the other terran stuff.
Jaedong's biggest (possibly only) mistake in those games was no transition into infestors and or ultras.
i'm not of the opinion that going into infestors or ultras helps zerg's cause against the terran 4m
I think infestors and ultras can work but the transition time is so thin it might not even exist in a high level game. And even if you make the transition you're not out of the woods against marauder mine. However I do think it's slightly better than staying on 2/2 ling/bane/muta if you can make the transition.
3 cc into 4m is economy cheese. I think it's essential for the zerg to roach/bane allin at least once in a series to make sure the terran isn't greedy. If he doesn't at least think you could allin him you're probably going to lose. If you're not going to do it at least fake it. Trying to out macro the terran just seems futile. But if roach/bane allin isn't working anymore against these high level terrans then I think we're screwed.
The counter to roach / ling / bane all in is actually 3 CCs to reproduce lost scvs. A couple extra raxes aren't going to do anything against that all in. if you go cloak banshee on the other hand...........
3 cc into 4m is economy cheese. I think it's essential for the zerg to roach/bane allin at least once in a series to make sure the terran isn't greedy. If he doesn't at least think you could allin him you're probably going to lose.
Slight disagreement here. I've been noticing some Pro's making an effort to really concentrate on a more macro oriented Ling/Bling set up. By macro oriented I'm talking 5H/5Q non stop Ling/Bling flood before a 3 cc Terran even hits the 12m mark -> or when the 1st big push starts. Here's a good replay and analysis from Day[9]:
EPT
