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TomatoChip
United States9 Posts
ZvP low masters game guy goes 8 gate blink stalker / zealot all-in. How can I recognize and respond appropriately? How should I scout and what should I be looking for? I went through the replay a couple times and couldn't find a good answer. Any help is appreciated! Replay: http://drop.sc/353067 | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
Also, unless I totally missed it there wasn't even a twilight council to research blink. | ||
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loginn
France815 Posts
If you had scouted at 6 25 and seen no gas past 6 40 just stop droning and make a lot of units. Get speed before lair and try to get +1 when you know you'll hold. Mass roach lings and a few spines would win this everytime. Last thing is : Derelict is a map where protoss do these kind of builds a lot. Everytime I play ZvP on Derelict I expect one of these. | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
Last replay:http://drop.sc/353105 For example, my last game...went ling muta, defended all drops (until I got to that point where I'm mined out and have to split vs the 5th and 6th bases), and as I'm dealing with each push/army, a small force stims and takes out my last bases (I get static defense as creep allows, but its so ez for Terran to just avoid them and come at a different angle). Economy wise, he's in the same situation. Down to his last mineral patches (3rd) I counter attack after an engagement and take out 20 SCVs, so it's currently something like 55 to 20 workers. Ofc, he has 4 orbitals all saved up so he has 3000 income back within a minute, but he's mined out. At the very end, we trade armies, I lose my last mining base and he just has his small bio force, of which my last 8 mutas just can't fight with medivac support even though I cleaned up most of them. I stop him getting his 4th up till this very last moment where I'm completely mined out. So I've essentially traded all my minerals away on just defending his drops and my bases, and in the losses to his snipes. So my huge mineral float is all for naut. I can't sustain a 5th/6th long enough to mine gas, and I start making ultras (I'm so poor I can't even start adrenal glands and 3/3, due to trades) which only help me trade in the last few battles before I end up in a checkmate. I see competent players on streams much better than me struggling with this. Usually I'd just watch the pros and see how they deal but it seems beyond coinflippy atm. Even if GSL pros can make muta ling bane work on some maps, the disparity is huge. Roach baneling allin before medivac..might be short term ladder point fix but not one I'm willing to accept. I've tried roach baneling comps (since pure roach is just an instant lose after his production is up). But consistently even as I'm pushing his 3rd and in some cases completely wiping out his forward army, all the scvs there, while ofc in all cases where I've tried the timing, the double medivacs hit my main and I lose instantly (and no, static D would not fix this in my main, they always avoid it. I always have some passive d in most games (spore/spine) to stop 'passive' drops (the kind they do without looking) but that stopped working when terrans start adding marauders and widows in to their comps) and medivacs became super fast. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
Also, You are diamond level and you lied your rank to TL in your post. I highly doubt this was KR diamond too. The terran's build was really bad; his 1/1 finished by 12:00, and he attacked then with 3 medivacs and 24 marines. He also walked over your baneling traps without you noticing twitce. You lost so much to a widow mine. Before you engage a widow mining terran, if you have good creep spread, engage him only on creep. You should also come from as many angles as you can, as that reduces the power of widow mines and his ability to kite and split. You were also banking so many minerals by 14:00 and you had such a superior army at 14:00 you could of just went and killed him or his 3rd. at 14:20 was his first drop. You should of countered his 3rd and went back to defend with the rest of your army. At around 15:30, you see his army bypassing you when you go kill his 3rd. Why did you fall back? Kill his SCVS at the 3rd with a handful of lings and banes and go home to defend. Not to mention how you also won that engagement and didnt do anything with that lead. His third was so exposed and you NEVER attacked it, even with a minor counterattack. If you just blew his army with baneling mines and gone for his base, you could of won. You should of also taken your 5th, even at his other 5th location. Heck, even a 6th, you were banking SO MUCH. In general: Once you kill his army, see if you can take advantage and kill him. Try not to let a drop or his entire army counterattacking pull you back. If he does move his army out after you try going for his third, be sure to kill his SCVs at his third with some lings and banes while going home to defend. Spread creep, TECH TO HIVE. By 19:00 you threw the game. And guys, do NOT lie about your rank. Sure you're near masters on kr (I checked Nios.kr), but youre still diamond. | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
On August 06 2013 00:28 DilemaH wrote: Rarely should you ever chase hellions off creep with lings. Also, your creep spread was nonexistant by 10:30 and later. Also, You are diamond level and you lied your rank to TL in your post. I highly doubt this was KR diamond too. The terran's build was really bad; his 1/1 finished by 12:00, and he attacked then with 3 medivacs and 24 marines. He also walked over your baneling traps without you noticing twitce. You lost so much to a widow mine. Before you engage a widow mining terran, if you have good creep spread, engage him only on creep. You should also come from as many angles as you can, as that reduces the power of widow mines and his ability to kite and split. You were also banking so many minerals by 14:00 and you had such a superior army at 14:00 you could of just went and killed him or his 3rd. at 14:20 was his first drop. You should of countered his 3rd and went back to defend with the rest of your army. At around 15:30, you see his army bypassing you when you go kill his 3rd. Why did you fall back? Kill his SCVS at the 3rd with a handful of lings and banes and go home to defend. Not to mention how you also won that engagement and didnt do anything with that lead. His third was so exposed and you NEVER attacked it, even with a minor counterattack. If you just blew his army with baneling mines and gone for his base, you could of won. You should of also taken your 5th, even at his other 5th location. Heck, even a 6th, you were banking SO MUCH. In general: Once you kill his army, see if you can take advantage and kill him. Try not to let a drop or his entire army counterattacking pull you back. If he does move his army out after you try going for his third, be sure to kill his SCVs at his third with some lings and banes while going home to defend. Spread creep, TECH TO HIVE. By 19:00 you threw the game. And guys, do NOT lie about your rank. Sure you're near masters on kr (I checked Nios.kr), but youre still diamond. My bad. I'm only vsing masters atm, unless I lose 5 games and I get a diamond and I go 3-0 and I'm back up to masters only MMR again. I'm masters on US, I said masters level not masters league. And that generic statement encompasses low masters as well, wherever I might be. It was KR ladder, you can check in sc2gears. In hindsight you're right, I was pretty bad overall (late hive/upgrade/no macro hatch), especially with the baneling mines. Several times I saw them run over, flicked over and saw it was too late. I was pretty disappoint, but when Terran has a drop in your main, sniping your 5th and streaming to your 3rd, you don't tend to get in that zone where you know Terran is pushing and you pay sole attention to the minimap. On a map like Neo Planet it's kind of easier. Only two major chokes to watch, tons of overlord spots as well. I only had the limited burrowed vision, 4+chokes being streamed down on my minimap and no time to predict it. Creep spread is bad I admit. I keep cutting the queens from my build due to due bio over hellion openings. Then the pushes hit and it recedes and I never bother again. I'll definitely start leaving lings in my main, but double medivacs will still make them irrelevant at some point. Anyhoot. Blade makes swarmhost play seem viable to hold on to the 4th while going mutas in to broods/infestor. I just hit the impass I guess and wonder if I should just refine or try new tactics. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On August 06 2013 00:41 DarKcS wrote: My bad. I'm only vsing masters atm, unless I lose 5 games and I get a diamond and I go 3-0 and I'm back up to masters only MMR again. I'm masters on US, I said masters level not masters league. And that generic statement encompasses low masters as well, wherever I might be. It was KR ladder, you can check in sc2gears. In hindsight you're right, I was pretty bad overall (late hive/upgrade/no macro hatch), especially with the baneling mines. Several times I saw them run over, flicked over and saw it was too late. I was pretty disappoint, but when Terran has a drop in your main, sniping your 5th and streaming to your 3rd, you don't tend to get in that zone where you know Terran is pushing and you pay sole attention to the minimap. On a map like Neo Planet it's kind of easier. Only two major chokes to watch, tons of overlord spots as well. I only had the limited burrowed vision, 4+chokes being streamed down on my minimap and no time to predict it. Creep spread is bad I admit. I keep cutting the queens from my build due to due bio over hellion openings. Then the pushes hit and it recedes and I never bother again. I'll definitely start leaving lings in my main, but double medivacs will still make them irrelevant at some point. Anyhoot. Blade makes swarmhost play seem viable to hold on to the 4th while going mutas in to broods/infestor. I just hit the impass I guess and wonder if I should just refine or try new tactics. Stick with roach/ling/bane or ling/bane/muta for now; Going swamhosts is not easy vs bio and its not common. Learn basic TvZ vs bio. But when you kill his army ENTIRELY, you can even kill his counterattacking army with half of yours because, well, you just killed his army. The reason you lost is because he denied you MENTALLY from taking your advantage; the pressure of a counterattacking terran is enough to scare anybody, but stay strong and just pull some lings off to kill him on the inside when he stupidly pulls his entire army. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Hi,ZvP low masters game, guy goes 8 gate blink stalker / zealot all-in. How can I recognize and respond appropriately? How should I scout and what should I be looking for? I went through the replay a couple times and couldn't find a good answer. Any help is appreciated! Took a look at the replay and in general your basic mechanics need improvement. I won't even get into the small details...I'll just list 2 major problems that need addressing first - 2 basic z vs p supply timings:@ 5:50 - 44 supply @ 8:00 - 75-79 supply In your game: 5:50 = 38 -> @ 6:21 44 supply In your game: 8:00 = 56 -> @ 8:45 78 supply In a standard Roach opening (which you did), by the 9:00 min mark you should be in the 108 - 118 supply range. So yea man, work on the basics  . Some random thoughts. Vs 8 gate blink, at least once you spot it, you'll be making an obvious transition to heavy lings. As soon as you spot the blink all-in immediately start +1 Carapace so your lings cant get 3 shotted.Also, a pretty simply concept that some people take for granted or don't really pay attention to is Zerg's macro potential from 3 simple bases with 16d saturation at each. This set up can support approximately 5 Hatch (5Queen) zerglings. Likewise, add a 4th base with 16d saturation (64total) and you can support approximately 6 Hatch (6Queen) and 3 macro hatches worth of zergling production -> or just about 100 lings every 60s. Both pretty good ways to destroy 7-8 Gate blink. | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On August 06 2013 04:54 StatixEx wrote: Lets assume you can build the perfect army for the first engagement. how do you beat mass voidrays as a zerg? What would be the composition you would need and what should you be remaxing on assuming you only have half the resources (larva/mins/gas) than before? depends on his support units. theoretically queen + infestor laughs at voids. but there is this unit zerg has no direct counter to: HTs. so you will need to add SHs in lategame. either go for boring but more reliable SH + spores + viper turtle or you go for a more interesting but also weaker in a direct engagement and on a timer ultra, hydra, viper, SH, infestor. but no matter what you do....without SHs you will lose the game vs lategame P since everything else is easily countered. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
On August 06 2013 05:30 Decendos wrote: depends on his support units. theoretically queen + infestor laughs at voids. but there is this unit zerg has no direct counter to: HTs. so you will need to add SHs in lategame. either go for boring but more reliable SH + spores + viper turtle or you go for a more interesting but also weaker in a direct engagement and on a timer ultra, hydra, viper, SH, infestor. but no matter what you do....without SHs you will lose the game vs lategame P since everything else is easily countered. ye like i said forget everything all whats coming and is going to come is void rays. Best comp is ? ? ? i say this as i played a game the other day (and thinking about it, when mass void come i always lose) and the guy built 8 cannons around his bases walling him in and then sat back and massed rays. When i went to push i saw this wallin and pulled back to get the blords out but of course they didnt stand much of a chance and because id gone for a roach timing i had a pointless ground army. the game went on for me to mass corruptors, corruptor muta. corruptor muta hydra corruptor hydra/infester . . you name it, it was a great game really but i just couldnt do the damage. at one point i killed the army but he had a load of rays sitting back at home the same thing happened in another game, just mass voids. im not looking for any help in my scouting and all that cos i knew it was coming and why im not posting the replay, i dont want to hear how the rest of my game went. anytime i see a toss try their hardest to deny scouting and wall in its mass air. the game ended with me taking 7 bases vs his 3 over an hr. all i want to know is, if you were to make a perfect composition with a remax of 50% of what you had, what would you do? | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Lets assume you can build the perfect army for the first engagement. how do you beat mass voidrays as a zerg? 20 supply of Queens completely OWN 40 supply of VR. With good transfusions you'll lose 1-2 Queens, like seriously. Now of course, early game will never come to this, but still, the point is, Queens > VR. With more bases (3 additional early Queens is enough to defend) just tech Muta -> grab even more bases -> force him to tech Phoenix (you control his unit composition which means VR production will be stopping) -> and transition into a unit composition that takes advantage of his current army. Upgraded Muta/Corruptor (which you can afford with a 1-2+ base adv) are > Phoenix (and should invite him to produce Stalkers to help snip Muta/Corruptors). Mass ling, ling/Bling, Hydra, or Hydra/ling are all > Phoenix and any Protoss ground army w/out Colossi. By forcing them into Phoenix they have less time and less gas to transition into any early and dangerous form of mass Colossis/Templar/Archon based army. Sure, you have a lot of supply in Muta/Corruptor but you can unit trade and instantly rebuild/remax into a composition that counters his current unit choice. And what will happen quite frequently is its your 2nd remax that ends the game. In ZvP, how should I read upgrades on the forge as an indication of a 2-base timing/allin? Toss typically gets +1 at some point anyway, so I haven't been able to figure out how this helps in reading a toss's build. The forge is only a slight indicator.......You get most information from gas count, gas timings, probe count and early unit composition (i.e. see lots of sentries??). Spot only 1 gas and low probe count? Well, it has to be aggression. Probably a 9:10 push with +1attack, 2 Immortals, 1 Warp Prism, and 10-12 zealots. Did you see lot's of early Sentries and delayed gas at the expansion? Probably the standard Polt version 2 Base Immortal all-in.So scout gas, gas timing, probe count, and unit composition to know What he's doing. Then you need to know how to counter it. I.E. How in the hell do you stop +1 attack -> 2 Immortals and 12 zealots at 9:10? 3 ways! 1st: 60 +1 Carapace speedlings. This means starting +1 carapace nlt 6:20 and drone to 62 suply and then mass lings from 3 Hatch to 92 supply -> with good execution you get 60 lings by the 9:15 mark. 2nd: 8 Hydras (no upgrades) and 32 speedlings. Gotta start your Lair by 6:40 seconds. Or the 3rd, and my personal favorite, 30ish speedlings and 8-12 Blings. It's pretty cost effective, needs less supply, and you can still open with a standard Z vs P w/out any need for sacrificing early income/supply to get gas/upgrades sooner. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On August 06 2013 07:09 11B wrote: The forge is only a slight indicator.......You get most information from gas count, gas timings, probe count and early unit composition (i.e. see lots of sentries??). Spot only 1 gas and low probe count? Well, it has to be aggression. Probably a 9:10 push with +1attack, 2 Immortals, 1 Warp Prism, and 10-12 zealots. Did you see lot's of early Sentries and delayed gas at the expansion? Probably the standard Polt version 2 Base Immortal all-in. A slight indicator... of what? There're a lot of indicators for a toss's build, but let me try to rephrase my question: I often hear pros refer to an "early +1," so they prepare for some early pressure. What constitutes "early?" Basically at what timing should I look at the forge to see if there is an indication of early pressure? | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
A slight indicator... of what? Of early aggression. That's all it tells you -> that early aggression is coming. Plus Chrono boost drastically changes extreme early pushes. 3X Chrono gets what? 1:50s +1. What are some pretty normal Protoss aggression builds? Here's 4 pretty standard ones. Check out the replays or games to get a better feel and understanding of the different timings involved. Hope this helps! ^_O 1: 4 Gate +1 http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=15975 2: 5-7 Gate +1 WPrism/Immortal/Zealot push: Naniwa style at 9:15ish: http://drop.sc/336162 3: 5-7 Gate +1 Sentry/Immortal/Zealot push: Parting style 10:00 4: 7-8 Gate +2 Blink Stalker -> although you normally see them harrassing much earlier. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On August 06 2013 08:09 11B wrote: Of early aggression. That's all it tells you -> that early aggression is coming. Plus Chrono boost drastically changes extreme early pushes. 3X Chrono gets what? 1:50s +1. What are some pretty normal Protoss aggression builds? Here's 4 pretty standard ones. Check out the replays or games to get a better feel and understanding of the different timings involved. Hope this helps! ^_O 1: 4 Gate +1 http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=15975 2: 5-7 Gate +1 WPrism/Immortal/Zealot push: Naniwa style at 9:15ish: http://drop.sc/336162 3: 5-7 Gate +1 Sentry/Immortal/Zealot push: Parting style 10:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6zvC7JatfSg 4: 7-8 Gate +2 Blink Stalker -> although you normally see them harrassing much earlier. Sorry but this still doesn't really answer the question =/ Basically what timing should I be watching out for to see some sort of 7:30 +1 4gate/7gate pressure? Forge spinning at 4:00? 5:00? What would be indicative of an early 3rd vs a 2-base immo-based allin? This is what I'm curious about. Oftentimes the easiest thing to actually see reliably with your overlord or ling is the forge spinning, so it's useful to know. I'm aware of the normal builds, and most of the indications, but the upgrade timing is not one of them, which is why I'm asking. | ||
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IronDragon
China6 Posts
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On August 06 2013 11:29 DilemaH wrote: In your eyes, is ZvZ a new build order matchup? I've heard and seen that things like mutas have an advantage vs roach macro, roach macro has a slight advantage vs roach timing and roach timings mess up muta players. If this is true, is there any way to identify the differences? A roach timing has fast double evos, but when do those come up? A roach macro player gets his expo when he can, but when are his evos? And mutas are, obviously fast lair, but is there anything else that a fast lair can be used for? Well, generally, i'd say : Roach +1 timing > Roach +1/+1 timing > Muta > Roach +1 With also, Roach play > Ling/Ultra play > Muta play ~~ Roach play But With Roach+1 you are totally fine if you scout early enough and take a 3rd early on and hold it. With Roach +1/+1, if you survive with spines and good macro to a roach+1 push, just wait for a +2/+2 Roach Hydra timing, and you'll be ahead. Some strategies are weaker against others strategies, but you can always find a way to get ahead. | ||
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