Hey guys. Im sorry if this has been talked about before, but i diddent have the willpower to read 92 pages. I have a question about ZvP. If protoss decides to go air, it seems like i might aswell gg! If i try to attack with roaches they will FF me out and kill me with cannon and whatever air units they already have up. I then try and go hydra but before i have a reasonbly army they have to much dps in the air. If i try and do a counter attack because of there slow army, they recall and kill my units or they just sacrifice there third and kill my tech. as the game progresses it seems to get more and more impossible, to get a decent trade in an engagement. I tried to put forrest of spores, but they avoid that until they simply have so much that it dont matter! Im only a plat player, and have alot to learn, but this is one fight i dont seem to get any closer to winning any advice would be deeply appreciatet, and i apolegise for my bad english and grammar!
On August 02 2013 04:59 Blacos wrote: Hey guys. Im sorry if this has been talked about before, but i diddent have the willpower to read 92 pages. I have a question about ZvP. If protoss decides to go air, it seems like i might aswell gg! If i try to attack with roaches they will FF me out and kill me with cannon and whatever air units they already have up. I then try and go hydra but before i have a reasonbly army they have to much dps in the air. If i try and do a counter attack because of there slow army, they recall and kill my units or they just sacrifice there third and kill my tech. as the game progresses it seems to get more and more impossible, to get a decent trade in an engagement. I tried to put forrest of spores, but they avoid that until they simply have so much that it dont matter! Im only a plat player, and have alot to learn, but this is one fight i dont seem to get any closer to winning any advice would be deeply appreciatet, and i apolegise for my bad english and grammar!
roach hydra viper is the standard.
hydra + abduct against air.
add swarm hosts by the time they add high templar.
the key thing for hydras vs air is have some sense of judgment on how many hydras you need against the amount of air Protoss has, because Protoss air(especially void rays) is very unforgiving. Their attack locks on for some distance even if you retreat, so you'll lose a lot of hydras retreating. You have to KNOW that you have enough hydras, then go in once and kill them off.
Hey guys. Im sorry if this has been talked about before, but i diddent have the willpower to read 92 pages. I have a question about ZvP. If protoss decides to go air, it seems like i might aswell gg!
Early game grab more Queens than normal and expand > take your 4th and 5th (on maps with access) and tech Muta. Here's a link to Day[9] commentating on several WCS Korea games of SoulKey vs sOs. in which sOs FFE into 3 Stargate play while taking a 3rd.
On August 02 2013 16:38 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Hi. What is the basic build order for 3 hatch before pool build in ZvT?
You don really need a build order for that, it's pretty simple. And if you're so low level that you're asking or such a build, you shouldn't be doing this build, anyways. Stick with 15 hatch 16 pool and gas vs gas openings, is my recommendation.
On August 02 2013 16:38 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Hi. What is the basic build order for 3 hatch before pool build in ZvT?
15h 18h 17p
Is what i do usually. I suggest doing this only if you see that the terran has gone cc first with your 13 drone scout. You can choose to get a gas or not.
On August 02 2013 16:38 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Hi. What is the basic build order for 3 hatch before pool build in ZvT?
15h 18h 17p
Is what i do usually. I suggest doing this only if you see that the terran has gone cc first with your 13 drone scout. You can choose to get a gas or not.
These days, I usually will 9 or 10 drone scout and have it check a couple proxy spots first. Way I figure it is if I'm going to invest in a drone scout, I might as well invest a little more to get more use out of it.
On August 02 2013 16:38 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Hi. What is the basic build order for 3 hatch before pool build in ZvT?
15h 18h 17p
Is what i do usually. I suggest doing this only if you see that the terran has gone cc first with your 13 drone scout. You can choose to get a gas or not.
These days, I usually will 9 or 10 drone scout and have it check a couple proxy spots first. Way I figure it is if I'm going to invest in a drone scout, I might as well invest a little more to get more use out of it.
If y 10/9 scout, I wouldnt check for proxxies because when you scout him and see no buildings + around 11 SCVs it's a 2rax, or reaper if he has gas. With a 13 scout don't check for proxxies because the drone won't get to his base before the depots to see if gas opening with that detour. Plus if I drone scout, I don't have to leave my Ovie at my natural to see any suspicious shenanigans. That's my opinion personally. I usually don't drone scout vs terran any more, but it's a wise thing to do. If I remember correctly VortiX does it 99% of the time and is still pretty good.
On August 02 2013 04:59 Blacos wrote: Hey guys. Im sorry if this has been talked about before, but i diddent have the willpower to read 92 pages. I have a question about ZvP. If protoss decides to go air, it seems like i might aswell gg! If i try to attack with roaches they will FF me out and kill me with cannon and whatever air units they already have up. I then try and go hydra but before i have a reasonbly army they have to much dps in the air. If i try and do a counter attack because of there slow army, they recall and kill my units or they just sacrifice there third and kill my tech. as the game progresses it seems to get more and more impossible, to get a decent trade in an engagement. I tried to put forrest of spores, but they avoid that until they simply have so much that it dont matter! Im only a plat player, and have alot to learn, but this is one fight i dont seem to get any closer to winning any advice would be deeply appreciatet, and i apolegise for my bad english and grammar!
roach hydra viper is the standard.
hydra + abduct against air.
add swarm hosts by the time they add high templar.
the key thing for hydras vs air is have some sense of judgment on how many hydras you need against the amount of air Protoss has, because Protoss air(especially void rays) is very unforgiving. Their attack locks on for some distance even if you retreat, so you'll lose a lot of hydras retreating. You have to KNOW that you have enough hydras, then go in once and kill them off.
I'm not a fan of vipers vs airtoss but it is certainly viable. I prefer hydroach viper vs colossus players. Vs sky toss I go hydra-ling-X, X being infestors vs a void ray heavy army and X being corrupters vs tempest/carrier heavy, but tempest are a little...less powerful. I then like to go to my Stephano SH turtle style if I haven't won yet. Keep in mind that sky toss is very deathbally, so the faster you can attack the better. Especially vs carries, those things are stronk QUAD UPGRADUUUUU (meele carapace ranged air)
can you guys tell me what you think of my opener? in zvt and zvp i usually go
14 pool 16 hatch 15/16 queen 17/18 overlord 18 gas (extractor trick) 17 zergling/drone
most people seem to go overlord before queen, but ive always preferred rushing my queens out as fast as possible to deny scouting units and get my injects and creep rolling, which is also why i prefer 14 pool to 15 pool. the 18 supply block doesn't really bother me because i always go 18 gas and then extractor trick on 2nd geyser to get a zergling (or an extra drone if i went for earlier lings), so i'm only floating one larva for a few seconds
i really feel the most comfortable playing a moderate, not too aggressive/not too greedy style, which is why i usually go for two base single gas play early on and then, depending on the situation and whether i want to put on pressure, either take a third or add 2-3 gas for roaches and/or banelings and/or double evo and/or early lair
i know my style is sort of made up and i'm sure it would have holes in high level play, but it works alright for me. nevertheless if anyone has any tips on how to refine or improve it for the play style i'm comfortable with, i would really appreciate it
Imo the only thing preventing people from reaching, lets say low level Diamond (NA) is "mechanics". Crisp, clean, quick execution is where it's at. Hit injects! Actually put drones on the gas you made :D!! Don't supply block yourself!!! Drone up and saturate your bases!!!! And learning to spread a little creep helps too! These things in themselves pretty much guarantees Diamond level.
But aside from all my rambling, your build seems perfectly fine vs Protoss. I'm not a huge fan of that early gas but it's not a game killer. In general, I don't recommend getting gas unless you plan on using it! I would however opt for a 3rd hatchery somewhere in the 4:00 - 6:00 range. This allows you to drone harder and transition to a more powerful macro oriented mid game. Not to mention having additional larvae helps stop early-mid game Protoss pushes.
Versus Terran I'd opt for the traditional Hatch -> Pool. Here's a great commentary from our beloved Day[9] of Life!!, in a style that I hope gains traction. Take note, the "Life" game doesn't start until Part 2 (but watch all parts to fully grasp the concepts):
as for mechanics, funny enough i feel like i'm mostly fine with the stuff you mentioned... i could do a bit better with creep spread, but it's definitely part of my build/game plan every time, and while i will occasionally forget to do things like saturate my gas that's only once every few games. honestly what i really struggle with is more the game sense side of it - scouting at proper times, identifying builds, reacting properly to builds are all a killer for me. i can macro up and hit injects fine, but once i get to mid-lategame i have trouble not only scouting my opponent's composition but knowing how to counter it. i have a GENERAL sense of what i'm supposed to do, but exact ratios and when to transition can be a problem for me (how many roaches in roach/hydra? how many banelings in ling/bane/muta? etc)
i think the reason i 14 pool against terran is mostly just because at my level there's so much cheese that i've developed a phobia of hatch first... bunker/cannon rushes and proxies are my worst nightmare, i'm always afraid i won't scout them and i'll suddenly need to hatch a bunch of lings. probably not the best way to improve but defending cheese is so frustrating because it's like i'm playing tower defense instead of RTS ;( but yeah i've heard that i should be going hatch first. similarly, i think the early gas against protoss is something i've had success with because at my level it's more common for me to get speedlings past their forcefields or just simply macro so much better that i can literally bust their wall with 100 lings
the extra larvae to defend protoss pushes is a really good point which i had never thought of before, and it's super relevant to my interests because there's nothing i hate more than defending 2 base protoss
i will have to check that video out some time when i'm not running on no sleep at 5am thanks for the link
When I see toss go gateway expand and chuck down 2-3 gateways to wall at their nat, I almost always get 4 gated (in to some other kind of allin if that fails). Last time I tried going 3 hatch anyway (9 scouted, so I had time to decide) and it failed miserably. I start making lings the second I see him move out and I cant' make enough and end up losing a lot of mining time and end up losing to the constant 4+ gates (probably chucked on lots more after 2nd was probed up).
Do I need to rush roaches if I sense this coming? Or did I just not have enough lings due to early 3rd ?
I'm increasingly annoyed by players dancing their probe around in my natural and/or third preventing me putting down a hatchery or even worse pylon blocking. What is the best method to micro to prevent this? Zig zagging back and forth? Making little half circles with an attack thrown in here and there?
What if I sent two drones, is there a surefire method to get the hatch down then, like having one on attack and the other one zigzagging?
On August 03 2013 22:41 LordYama wrote: I'm increasingly annoyed by players dancing their probe around in my natural and/or third preventing me putting down a hatchery or even worse pylon blocking. What is the best method to micro to prevent this? Zig zagging back and forth? Making little half circles with an attack thrown in here and there?
What if I sent two drones, is there a surefire method to get the hatch down then, like having one on attack and the other one zigzagging?
That should be pretty obvious. Technically, he can't outrun your drone forever, so you can just cut in front of his probe then attack move, you'll get a hit, then repeat, if he isnt watching (and it's hard to do since at this time he usually needs to look back, drop a pylon or something and then come back) for even a few seconds then you will get the hp low enough he has to retreat. Minimize the damage by starting the overlord sooner, or go straight for your 3rd base. Sometimes I send a drone down early to fake him out, and if I start damaging his probe way before 300mins, he has to drop it early, or he just gives up and goes home.
On 1v1 maps, feel free to go and patrol a 10-12 drone on his nexus location to delay his as well. Inject on our first queen scales hell of a lot better than a late nexus.
On August 03 2013 22:41 LordYama wrote: I'm increasingly annoyed by players dancing their probe around in my natural and/or third preventing me putting down a hatchery or even worse pylon blocking. What is the best method to micro to prevent this? Zig zagging back and forth? Making little half circles with an attack thrown in here and there?
What if I sent two drones, is there a surefire method to get the hatch down then, like having one on attack and the other one zigzagging?
If a player pylon blocks before nexus, they're more behind than you. If they pylon lock before forge, you can run some lings into his base.
Here's a link from a Naniwa game in which he goes gateway expand into 4 Warp gate -> proxy pylon -> early pressure. His pylon placement and warp in point was just about as good as it gets and he attacks at 6:38. A lesser player w/out a perfect pylon would attack a little bit later. Anyways, check out the link and game. http://www.twitch.tv/dreamhacktv/b/396294648?t=6h53m53s
So how to stop it? The simple answer is zerglings. To back up just a bit.... if you used a standard zerg opening such as 15 pool -> 16 Hatch -> 15 Ovie -> 15 Queen then your early inject cycles will be as follows: 4:10 (rounded from :08) -> 4:55 (added a slight gap due to inject delay) -> 5:40. At this point in the game you should be approaching 44/44 supply and preferably already have started your 3rd.
So, imo, the proper response is -> as soon as Queens inject at 5:40 save larvae. Now take in account slight variations in inject timing and the standard 1 larvae every 15 seconds and things usually follow something like: Inject -> after 40 second 6 larvae -> next inject, 40 more seconds 6 larvae -> next inject, 40 more seconds 7 larvae -> and then the cycle repeats itself.
So hey!, the 5:40 inject cycle is the 3rd cycle meaning there's a strong possibility we will have 14 larvae available at 6:20 -> and by around 6:45 we have right around 30 Lings. That's more than enough to push back 5 zealots and kill the pylon. Sure, you made a lot of lings but your drone count will still be around 37 which should be a few more than your opponent. After all, he did throw down 3 more gates and make units so he couldn't non stop probes.
So you stopped the attack -> have a few more drones -> plus your 3rd should be finished (if you started it in the 4 - 4:40 range -> which imo, you should) -> and then just keep building on your better position and transition as normal.
EPT
