On August 03 2013 22:37 DarKcS wrote: When I see toss go gateway expand and chuck down 2-3 gateways to wall at their nat, I almost always get 4 gated (in to some other kind of allin if that fails). Last time I tried going 3 hatch anyway (9 scouted, so I had time to decide) and it failed miserably. I start making lings the second I see him move out and I cant' make enough and end up losing a lot of mining time and end up losing to the constant 4+ gates (probably chucked on lots more after 2nd was probed up).
Do I need to rush roaches if I sense this coming? Or did I just not have enough lings due to early 3rd ?
Two big timings from gateway expo at least are 6;45 an 10:00 ish. If you see 4 gateways, even in their wall off, its usually a 6:45 4gate pressure. You can make roaches to hold this, but mass ling can work because of no +1. Another indicator is only 1 gas in their main and cybernet chronos. 10:00 has a huger variety of all ins, all of which you need roaches and lings. RW around 7:00 is pretty good. In general, get lings on top of sentries, immos and stalkers, and roaches shooting stuff. Spines help a lot in this situation, but don't overspend 1 base because they'll just attack right into your 3rd or nat, or even fall back and macro. A rule of thumb, 7 gates around 10:00 off 2 base if a 10:00 minute aggro. If its 7gate void ray, DO NOT get hydras right away. I like to go roach/ling, behind it make additional queens and then queens clean up voids. SCOUTING IS CRUCIAL: Get first 2 Ovies to the sides of his base to scout. If you see 4 gates for 6:45 or later, get lings and maybe roaches. If you see chronos on forge, expect a 10:00 push, especially if they have 7 gates. If you're not sure, have 1 ling or Ovie over his third. If its not down by around 10:00, he's all ining you or he's really bad and has a late expo.
On August 02 2013 04:59 Blacos wrote: Hey guys. Im sorry if this has been talked about before, but i diddent have the willpower to read 92 pages. I have a question about ZvP. If protoss decides to go air, it seems like i might aswell gg! If i try to attack with roaches they will FF me out and kill me with cannon and whatever air units they already have up. I then try and go hydra but before i have a reasonbly army they have to much dps in the air. If i try and do a counter attack because of there slow army, they recall and kill my units or they just sacrifice there third and kill my tech. as the game progresses it seems to get more and more impossible, to get a decent trade in an engagement. I tried to put forrest of spores, but they avoid that until they simply have so much that it dont matter! Im only a plat player, and have alot to learn, but this is one fight i dont seem to get any closer to winning any advice would be deeply appreciatet, and i apolegise for my bad english and grammar!
What I like to do is if I scout some sort of 1 gate FE into stargate (sending my overlord sometime shortly after 6:00), I just drone up pretty heavily knowing he can't attack me with anything significant in the next few minutes and get a few extra queens and spores.
What I personally like to do is massing up roach hydra when I have a decent three base economy (while keeping up my creep spread since I got those extra queens) and constantly deny the protoss third from going up, with my hydra:roach ratio based on how many air units they have. As long as you contain the toss to two bases, he can't really mass up any scary army (VR/colossi, VR/carrier, or even colossi/templar really) and you should be able to take a fourth with good judgement and take the economic lead.
One of my personal favorites (and a build I made) vs Protoss is:
9 ovie 13 Hatch in main! 13 drone 13 Pool -> drone to 16 2X ovie 2X Queen -> non stop zerglings 1X ovie -> 38/44 1x ovie
Attack his expand at 6:30 with 46 slow lings. 3 cannon or less and they die. With good micro you can actually beat 4 cannon wall some of the time so long as your able to do moderate damage......reason being you'll have a steady influx of reinforcements flowing in non stop. The fun part is any reasonable Protoss player will obviously scout this and know some form of early zergling all-in is coming. What they don't realize is just "how" many zerglings you'll actually have. Most early slow ling all ins only have 20-30 lings, not 46!.
Every ZvT I play is identical. Marines, medivacs, and mines that I have to be very very careful not to misplay against.
I feel like I can't do harass effectively because of mines scattered among the map, and there's no effective way I can clean up mines without a very large amount of attention focused on it.
With that, I end up defending against marine/mine drops the entire game. Eventually, there's a bunch of mines at the front of my base, and a bunch of marines trying to kite my units over them. I have no clue how to fight this effectively without broodlords or fungal, but making the investment for either puts me behind enough to be vulnerable to a push.
What's the mentality I should have when I know I'm going against this?
On August 04 2013 10:41 fdsdfg wrote: Every ZvT I play is identical. Marines, medivacs, and mines that I have to be very very careful not to misplay against.
I feel like I can't do harass effectively because of mines scattered among the map, and there's no effective way I can clean up mines without a very large amount of attention focused on it.
With that, I end up defending against marine/mine drops the entire game. Eventually, there's a bunch of mines at the front of my base, and a bunch of marines trying to kite my units over them. I have no clue how to fight this effectively without broodlords or fungal, but making the investment for either puts me behind enough to be vulnerable to a push.
What's the mentality I should have when I know I'm going against this?
Use fast units for base defence and free units for offense ?
On August 04 2013 10:41 fdsdfg wrote: Every ZvT I play is identical. Marines, medivacs, and mines that I have to be very very careful not to misplay against.
I feel like I can't do harass effectively because of mines scattered among the map, and there's no effective way I can clean up mines without a very large amount of attention focused on it.
With that, I end up defending against marine/mine drops the entire game. Eventually, there's a bunch of mines at the front of my base, and a bunch of marines trying to kite my units over them. I have no clue how to fight this effectively without broodlords or fungal, but making the investment for either puts me behind enough to be vulnerable to a push.
What's the mentality I should have when I know I'm going against this?
You can go roach/ling/bane or ling/bane/muta. These are two very viable playstyles. When in doubt, play 3 base starve (keep them on 3 bases).
if they have widow mines everywhere, they have a lot of watsed cash on the map (and supply). When you do runbys, get a decent amount of lings, lead with a few head lings to sponge mine shots and kill SCVs. you should win most engages because of the strength of zerg, however terran should manage to keep comming in and eventualy widdle you down.
-SPREAD CREEP-. This is sooooo useful vs terran. Come from multiple angles; its really easy and fun, and crushes their armies especialy if they have mines. eventualy tech into ultras, get 3-5 of them but do not engage with ultras unless one or more of the 4 things are present: 1. You have good ling count and micro and can hold them in place 2. You have fungals 3. You have creep 4. Theyre cornered
If hes dropping a lot, defend with mutas. If not, you can be aggressive with mutas.
TL;DR Be patient, but be quick. Spread creep, dont be afraid to give up ground but if he pushes your creep too back its hard to win. Come in from multple angles Slowly tech to ultras and add infestors and push. If he overcommits, kills a base and loses his army for example, go kill him a bit. Get his third or something. Keep him on three bases. Use mutas/overseers to hold off drops and clean up mines, but if he you're doing neither, attack with mutas. Muta/ling/bane vs marine/mine/medivac is VERY SKILL RELIANT with a LOT of APM. my favorite matchup is TvZ, but it is very hard.
Every ZvT I play is identical. Marines, medivacs, and mines that I have to be very very careful not to misplay against.
I feel like I can't do harass effectively because of mines scattered among the map, and there's no effective way I can clean up mines without a very large amount of attention focused on it
Short answer? Mass, which in this case, mass equals 5Hatch/5Queen Ling/Bling flood. Check out Life's sexy build and absolute destruction vs a rather standard Terran build of rax -> CC -> hellions -> CC -> to a standard 12m push. Thanks to Day[9] for the commentary and game:
I just saw this brilliant maneuver by a zerg on KawaiiRice's stream that I needed to share. We all know what to look for in a roach / ling / bane all in right? Check saturation on 3rd. So Kawaii did CC first into 3 CC + hellions as usual. The zerg scouted and went 3 hatch before pool. Kawaii dived his 6 hellions into 3rd and saw a bunch of drones and roasted a few. All seemed normal. Then bam, he got flanked by about 10 speedlings and 10 roaches. They cleaned up the hellions and went onto Kawaii's base and busted through the nat (despite 2 rows of bunkers) with the help of banes.
We were like, "wtf? How does he have all that stuff with a saturated 3rd?" After the game was over Kawaii scanned the zerg's 3rd and still saw full saturation. He scanned the natural and saw no drones. Totally awesome mind games.
One of my personal favorites (and a build I made) vs Protoss is:
9 ovie 13 Hatch in main! 13 drone 13 Pool -> drone to 16 2X ovie 2X Queen -> non stop zerglings 1X ovie -> 38/44 1x ovie
Attack his expand at 6:30 with 46 slow lings. 3 cannon or less and they die. With good micro you can actually beat 4 cannon wall some of the time so long as your able to do moderate damage......reason being you'll have a steady influx of reinforcements flowing in non stop. The fun part is any reasonable Protoss player will obviously scout this and know some form of early zergling all-in is coming. What they don't realize is just "how" many zerglings you'll actually have. Most early slow ling all ins only have 20-30 lings, not 46!.
No offense but this build sucks. For multiples reasons. We all know that pool first give you more larvaes than a hatch first. But in this particular case, it's roughly the same whether you're going hatch first or pool first if you're going for mass lings @ 5:30 ~ 6:30. But don't you think going for pool first give you more fexlibility for putting your hatch wherever you want and have a little more lings in the beginning to prevent any probe's scout ?
I'm talking about a build like this one : 14 pool (or 13) 16 hatch 1 drone (or overlord then no need for gas trick, more detail below) 16 queen 18 overlord (in this one, you may want to do a gas trick to make 1 pair of lings in case you don't want to waste one larvae because you'll have 3 larvaes before the overlord comes out) Then make lings and another queen once the first one is out and then send her to the other hatch.
I even managed to get 46 lings faster with this build instead of hatch 13, unless i'm missing something...
So I have some terrible habits and I need some advice for fixing them.
Basically I don't use command groups for my army. I do have one for injecting queens, but not for my army. I'm just in gold, so I'm just focusing on macro, and to defend or attack I usually just use the "select all army" command and attack move my roach/hydra army. I barely do any micro at all except in the early game when defending pushes with a small army.
Anyway, I want to start getting into the habit of using control groups. But I have a couple questions:
1) How do I add eggs into command groups? Because if I select all hatcheries, select all larva, morph a eggs, then hit Shift + command group, it'll also add all the larva to the command group, right? Is there any easy way to add only the units that are morphing in, and not the unused larva?
2) Do you guys put roach/hydra in the same group or divide them up?
On August 05 2013 01:17 Tritone wrote: 1) How do I add eggs into command groups? Because if I select all hatcheries, select all larva, morph a eggs, then hit Shift + command group, it'll also add all the larva to the command group, right? Is there any easy way to add only the units that are morphing in, and not the unused larva?
I only make one type of unit per larva selection, then Ctrl+LeftClick the eggs, and add them to the appropriate control group.
On August 04 2013 07:47 dasfewfawdx wrote: What are some good zerg cheeses/all-ins in all MUs for the current metagame?
So far all I've got are:
ZvT: Two base roach bane
ZvP: 14/14...into baneling bust if he FFEs (?)
ZvZ: 13 gas/12 mass speedlings (not sure if this is entirely viable anymore)
Versus gateway expand toss i often go normally to 2 base´s, take 16 gas and make about 25 drones. When speed is starting to finish you should have saved a few injects worth of larvae and then just keep hitting that z button and remember to inject. This works especially in maps where the nat ramp is wide and many tosses in high platinum seem to think they are totally fine early game so i have gotten so many wins with this. Simply run to his main and if you get in it´s really hard to lose if you just keep sending lings.
On August 05 2013 01:17 Tritone wrote: Hi everybody.
So I have some terrible habits and I need some advice for fixing them.
Basically I don't use command groups for my army. I do have one for injecting queens, but not for my army. I'm just in gold, so I'm just focusing on macro, and to defend or attack I usually just use the "select all army" command and attack move my roach/hydra army. I barely do any micro at all except in the early game when defending pushes with a small army.
Anyway, I want to start getting into the habit of using control groups. But I have a couple questions:
1) How do I add eggs into command groups? Because if I select all hatcheries, select all larva, morph a eggs, then hit Shift + command group, it'll also add all the larva to the command group, right? Is there any easy way to add only the units that are morphing in, and not the unused larva?
2) Do you guys put roach/hydra in the same group or divide them up?
Thanks in advance.
First was already answered. I don't use hydras and roaches on different control groups, but I know destiny (when he plays) does. I don't think you need to; before an engage, concave your units, box sections of your concave, ctrl+click the hydras in the unit selectors and move them back to get roaches at the front and hydras at the back. I'll give you my control groups: 1. All bases 2. Inject queens/production facilities(non hatcheries) 3. Army 4. Primary spell casters (infestors, ghosts) + observer 5. Secondary spell casters(vipers, msc) + overseers 6. Swarm hosts 7. Harasseurs (mutas, Phoenixes, hellions) 8. Unused, but I use this for nydus network 9. Creep queens 0. Scouting drone/overseer
You are! And thanks for commenting ^^. You're the exact response I was shooting for.
This is the ultimate troll all-in. Something I was trying to hint at with the !mark at the end of the Hatch in my op b/o. Rage induction from winning on the build is classic and provides immediate happiness, lol. Amazingly it works quite well up to low Diamond. So if you're in the mood (especially after a macro game) for some interesting and funny post game comments and some quick wins to ladder up in route to Masters then "inject" a few games in between. It's good for the soul and above all else, fun!
Versus gateway expand toss i often go normally to 2 base´s, take 16 gas and make about 25 drones. When speed is starting to finish you should have saved a few injects worth of larvae and then just keep hitting that z button and remember to inject.
What about standard 15 Pool -> 16 Hatch -> Hatch (4:00 and 3 total Queens a bit after) -> with a slightly earlier gas (than standard 2X at 6) at 4:30? Tip -> starting the Hatch at 4:00 lets us finish the Hatch at 5:40 which is in perfect timing with Queens inject cycles and consequently hatches lings right around 6:45. A normal gateway expand into 4 gate pressure hits around 6:40 - 7:00 which means we have extra larvae at the perfect timing.
The gas at 4:30 lets us start speed at 5:50 and finish at 7:40 which is a great time to counter attack with speed lings flooded off 3 Hatch (all Queen injected too). 2 options I use are the economic ling flood and the greedy ling flood. Economic version drones to 42/44 supply with an Ovie and then ling production. The greedy ling version stops drones at 36/36 and then ling production. With both versions I will use 2 inject cycles (5:40 and 6:25) on nothing but lings -> then back to mass drone.
This was briefly mentioned by casters in a recent ZvT game - if the T opens fast 1 gas, then he's going 3CC.
I don't know too much about Terran openings, so could someone explain why that is the case? As opposed to a 2-base hellion aggression into 3rd CC, or something similar?
In ZvT when not going mutas, what ratio of spores/spines/lings/banelings/etc. at border expansions is optimal to defend against drops?
Lastly is it ever worth getting overlord speed at hatchery tech to scout?
When you only have 1 gas you will naturally have a build up of minerals because you don't have enough gas to go up to too many factories and starport units. Hellions require no gas which is why they are mainly the unit of choice off 1 gas (also the map control factor of course). Alternatively instead of a 3rd CC quick you can put up a couple more barracks but you can't really do much with simple barracks units without stim at least which will be a while yet, with or without 2 gases.
On August 05 2013 09:17 quarkral wrote: This was briefly mentioned by casters in a recent ZvT game - if the T opens fast 1 gas, then he's going 3CC.
I don't know too much about Terran openings, so could someone explain why that is the case? As opposed to a 2-base hellion aggression into 3rd CC, or something similar?
In ZvT when not going mutas, what ratio of spores/spines/lings/banelings/etc. at border expansions is optimal to defend against drops?
Lastly is it ever worth getting overlord speed at hatchery tech to scout?
If you're not going mutas, you should be going roach/ling/bling as it is standard and very very good. Around 2 spores and 1 spine per base with 4 lings and 1 bane should clean up any drop from 1 medievac. If there's more, just add on more lings, like 6 for 2. If you're very suspicious of what he's up to but you aren't sure, it can be wise to do get Ovie speed, but I've never done so or needed to. Say if he makes a Viking very fast and gets all the Ovies around your base right away, then the investment can be worth it because you won't be able to scout otherwise and a fast Viking IS weird. Later Vikings aren't. That or you really don't manage to see anything with your first (or first two in my case) Ovies.
First was already answered
I have a question of my own. If a Terran opts for banshees, is it off one gas or does he take a second and when usualy is that second gas?
Normally off 2 gas, very seldom Terran goes banshee off 1 gas in ZvT. Also depending on the opening of the Terran player and how he wants to transition. 2nd gas should be right after factory starts most of the time.
On August 04 2013 07:47 dasfewfawdx wrote: What are some good zerg cheeses/all-ins in all MUs for the current metagame?
So far all I've got are:
ZvT: Two base roach bane
ZvP: 14/14...into baneling bust if he FFEs (?)
ZvZ: 13 gas/12 mass speedlings (not sure if this is entirely viable anymore)
Here's a good ZvP build. It's a coinflip, so I'd only recommend doing it on Neo Planet S, Akilon Wastes, Derelict Watcher, Newkirk Precinct or other 2 player maps where people open 1 gate FE.
10 pool 10 gas 11 double gas 2 drones cancel one of the gas 11 overlord 6 lings and pull drones off gas Queen and ling speed Mass speedlings - don't get supply blocked
If you're smart a player who doesn't wall of their ramp with 1 gate FE (so most of them) just flat out loses to this build. If they FFE you're in trouble, but in mid-high Masters I've still been able to win sometimes by getting a ridiculous amount of speedlings and just attacking their wall.
There is a dirty, dirty ZvZ build that has gotten me multiple wins over NA GM opponents and even a KR GM. It's Tang's speedling build, known in SEA as the Jerry build.
15 Pool 15 Gas 17 Hatchery 16 Queen 18 Overlord 18 Gas (pull drones off gas) 18 three pairs of zerglings (I suggest sending 2 to natural and using the other 4 to wall your ramp to deny any ling scouts from your opponent) 21 Queen, send your first queen to your natural 23 2x Overlord, also maynarde 5-6 drones down to your natural. Make speedlings and push out when speed finishes.
You should hit around 5:40 with a very large speedling count. If your opponent didn't see it you win. It's INCREDIBLY difficult to hold anyway unless they opened gasless 4 queens and made another couple of spines or if they got a particularly early baneling nest.
Note that holding early pools is very hard with this build due to the relatively late Zergling production from you.
EPT
And thanks for commenting ^^. You're the exact response I was shooting for.
