EPTWhen do you make your evos? Do you double evo or make one and upgrade carapace first and then get melee?
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 50
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learning88
United States160 Posts
When do you make your evos? Do you double evo or make one and upgrade carapace first and then get melee? | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On May 14 2013 00:44 learning88 wrote: In ZvZ, is going 1-1 lings considered an all-in? I've come to realize that I'm usually not that well prepared for ling aggression in the early game and that if I go this route, I can not only be prepared, but can end the game or transition easier to mutas to end the game. When do you make your evos? Do you double evo or make one and upgrade carapace first and then get melee? I would say it is, but it depends what you are doing with the 1/1? There are some really strong ling all ins with +1 armour because it means they dont insta die to banes. But you don't really get +1 melee with this as it doesn't add anything to the all in and it just means you have less drones/lings. As for going into the midgame, ZvZ is all about saving as much gas as you can so you can get as many mutas as possible. getting 1/1 really cuts into that, you may win the ground battle but your opponent wins the air battle and that is the most important thing. For this reason getting a pretty quick 1-1 is all in because if you don't do enough damage your opponent will have more mutas and have them faster so you will probably lose. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On May 14 2013 00:44 learning88 wrote: In ZvZ, is going 1-1 lings considered an all-in? I've come to realize that I'm usually not that well prepared for ling aggression in the early game and that if I go this route, I can not only be prepared, but can end the game or transition easier to mutas to end the game. When do you make your evos? Do you double evo or make one and upgrade carapace first and then get melee? Read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=411009 On May 14 2013 00:08 Asolmanx wrote: How do you scout and hold a 2 stalker 1 zealot 1 core pressure or 2 zealot 1 stalker 1 core pressure (from 1 gate expo) in ZvP? 6 lings and 2 queens don't seem to be enough 2 queens and 6 lings will be fine against 1 stalker, 1 zealot and 1 msc. If they poke with more (which they don't usually do to me) make some additional lings (no more than 4 extra though.) | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On May 14 2013 00:08 Asolmanx wrote: How do you scout and hold a 2 stalker 1 zealot 1 core pressure or 2 zealot 1 stalker 1 core pressure (from 1 gate expo) in ZvP? 6 lings and 2 queens don't seem to be enough With the gateway expand I think there are 2 key scout timings. The timing of the second gas geyser and the front of the base at 5 minutes. If you look at the games of Naniwa he delayed his second gas so he can take that faster nexus and also do a powerful zealot MC, 4 gate pressure. Other protoss players who did not do this build took the 2rd gas at about 3:00 and this can indicate the stalker, zealot MC pressure. So that is one indicator. It isn't always possible to scout that gas so checking the front a lot upto about 5-5.30 minutes is pretty important. 2 gateways at the front usually means a 4 gate is coming at you. However if you see a gate and a forge, or you don't see the gateways then this stalker,zealot MC pressure is possible. Final thing to see is if there is a sentry at the front. No sentry pretty much confirms the pressure. As for holding it you should have more than 2 queens vs the gateway expand, get a 3rd queen, the extra queen will be good vs this pressure, vs a stargate opener and will also give you extra creep spread, a few speedlings and the extra queen should be plenty of defense. | ||
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Bluebluesky
Finland1 Post
Thanks in advance. -Bluebluesky. | ||
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StillRooney
Sweden106 Posts
http://drop.sc/334296 | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On May 14 2013 03:43 Bluebluesky wrote: I´ve been having a lot of trouble lately in ZvZ after swapping BO. I used to go hatch first but fed up taking losses from different kind of early pools and adapted to 15 pool 16 hatch 16 gas. It has worked as expected (not setting economically too much behind vs hatch first, easy wins vs. 6-8 poolts). 10 pool however from the opponent, has been an autoloss for me in every single game so far. I´m in beliefs that 15p 16h 16g should be a bo win without canceling the hatchery, but i haven´t been able to save it once --> i´m economically too far behind. Without replay provided i don´t think you could point out what i´m doing wrong, but one could point out how you should hold 10-pool as above bo (or, if i´m wrong about the bo vs bo in the first place). Thanks in advance. -Bluebluesky. 15p 16h 16g 15 overlord. Then make a queen and lings when you see he is 10 pooling. Honestly, you should be fine. Don't cancel the hatch - you'll be way behind. Also, it's not too bad to let the hatch take some damage. When your queen pops and you have a decent amount of lings (say, if he had 8, 6+a queen will do fine), walk down the ramp and bring your queen with you. Edit: You gotta know if he puts down his hatchery as well, so keep your overlord around his natural. If he keeps pumping lings, do the same. | ||
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Frankie Teardrop
United States74 Posts
On May 14 2013 06:45 Henk wrote: 15p 16h 16g 15 overlord. Then make a queen and lings when you see he is 10 pooling. Honestly, you should be fine. Don't cancel the hatch - you'll be way behind. Also, it's not too bad to let the hatch take some damage. When your queen pops and you have a decent amount of lings (say, if he had 8, 6+a queen will do fine), walk down the ramp and bring your queen with you. Edit: You gotta know if he puts down his hatchery as well, so keep your overlord around his natural. If he keeps pumping lings, do the same. My standard ZvZ opener has been 15pool/16hatch/15ov/15queen/17gas. I'm wondering if taking a 16gas before the ovie and queen has been proven to be more efficient. I like the way my opener flows, but if it is delaying my lair excessively, then I will certainly try to adjust. I usually start lair tech around 6:30-6:45, depending on how many banes I need to make for defense. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On May 15 2013 00:56 Frankie Teardrop wrote: My standard ZvZ opener has been 15pool/16hatch/15ov/15queen/17gas. I'm wondering if taking a 16gas before the ovie and queen has been proven to be more efficient. I like the way my opener flows, but if it is delaying my lair excessively, then I will certainly try to adjust. I usually start lair tech around 6:30-6:45, depending on how many banes I need to make for defense. I'm not sure, but I like having speed a little bit earlier. You're already behind a 15H player, so I don't like to delay it even more. I don't think it makes a big difference though. | ||
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Drorctopus
Netherlands135 Posts
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On May 15 2013 08:14 Mahtasooma wrote: What is the best combination of ling/bane to deal with your standard 8 marine-between-mineral-line drop without spines or spores? 8 lings? see the dropship coming and get under the marines as they drop. But imo if u cant have lings under it you should always have static D to buy you time. Id rather build 3 spines and 1 spore than lose a few drones, possibly the hatch, and have to commit army to defend it. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On May 15 2013 06:39 Drorctopus wrote: Im low-mid master zerg on eu and I just can't beat terran :/. I have this problem especially vs terran that goes bio with widowmines. The widowmines are really hard to deal with and so are widow mine drops. I just can't trade cost effeciently vs that comp and even often when I win the fight I can't really finish him off. So i have basicly no clue how to deal with terran at all. You are having troubles in the mid game. Here: Take your third expansion at about 6:30 (earlier if no gas) when engaging, a click your army (flanks help a LOT) and run some lings forward to tank some baneling shots. Also, ~9 mutas can 1shot a widow mine, so get a pack of about 18 mutas to snipe widow mines if theyre too far back. You should have enough zerglings to beat him this way, and so chase the medis to their home with your mutas and try to snipe as many as you can. Do small ling runbys, leave some lings and banes at home to kill drops with spines/spore and if you win an engagement by a LOT, leave some extra lings to defend and attack. You should be able to kill 0-1 bases, and after a victory tech to hive. Get ultras and kill him. You will need a quite large amount of ultras to kill him. With that said, add in a good number of infestors (6-9) for fungals. Vipers cal also work NOTES: MMM can stutter step ultras without creep, lings or infestors. Viper cloud affects planetarys, so when attacking a pf, bring a viper or 3 along. I probably forgot a lot, but then again, im telling you how to win in a matchup. Theres always a lot missing. ~Mid masters | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On May 15 2013 08:57 DilemaH wrote: You are having troubles in the mid game. Here: Take your third expansion at about 6:30 (earlier if no gas) when engaging, a click your army (flanks help a LOT) and run some lings forward to tank some baneling shots. Also, ~9 mutas can 1shot a widow mine, so get a pack of about 18 mutas to snipe widow mines if theyre too far back. You should have enough zerglings to beat him this way, and so chase the medis to their home with your mutas and try to snipe as many as you can. Do small ling runbys, leave some lings and banes at home to kill drops with spines/spore and if you win an engagement by a LOT, leave some extra lings to defend and attack. You should be able to kill 0-1 bases, and after a victory tech to hive. Get ultras and kill him. You will need a quite large amount of ultras to kill him. With that said, add in a good number of infestors (6-9) for fungals. Vipers cal also work NOTES: MMM can stutter step ultras without creep, lings or infestors. Viper cloud affects planetarys, so when attacking a pf, bring a viper or 3 along. I probably forgot a lot, but then again, im telling you how to win in a matchup. Theres always a lot missing. ~Mid masters another huge thing is go for 1/1 ASAP as 3/3 being quick is a huge part of the matchup especially if u arnt going 2 base muta. Otherwise yea thats most if it. Creep helps, flanks help, counter attacks work wonders. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 15 2013 08:14 Mahtasooma wrote: What is the best combination of ling/bane to deal with your standard 8 marine-between-mineral-line drop without spines or spores? With a standard 8 marine drop 2-3 banelings with 8 lings should clean that up easily. Although if it's late game no reason not to have spines/spores  | ||
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MinzySC2
United States261 Posts
http://drop.sc/334850 | ||
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hearters
Singapore224 Posts
I noticed that the main problem i have with backspace method is when queens do the 'runaround' where you have either insufficient energy or insufficient queens, because of drops or whatever messing with your queens. I just had an idea on how to cope with this but can't test it out yet until tonight. The base camera hotkey bring you to the nearest hatchery(if i'm not wrong), then it brings to the hatcheries built after that in sequence. So basically, before selecting queens and starting the inject, you press a hotkey to bring you to your first base, then you start to inject from there. This way, you always inject from the first base to the last base, and as long as you are mindful of which bases don't have an active queen nearby, you can backspace to skip past that hatch and avoid the runaround. Or is the manual inject method just better? Or am I missing out some good method of troubleshooting when the queens do the runaround? | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
On May 15 2013 15:47 hearters wrote: + Show Spoiler + I normally use camera hotkeys for injecting but i'm trying to switch to the backspace method. I noticed that the main problem i have with backspace method is when queens do the 'runaround' where you have either insufficient energy or insufficient queens, because of drops or whatever messing with your queens. I just had an idea on how to cope with this but can't test it out yet until tonight. The base camera hotkey bring you to the nearest hatchery(if i'm not wrong), then it brings to the hatcheries built after that in sequence. So basically, before selecting queens and starting the inject, you press a hotkey to bring you to your first base, then you start to inject from there. This way, you always inject from the first base to the last base, and as long as you are mindful of which bases don't have an active queen nearby, you can backspace to skip past that hatch and avoid the runaround. Or is the manual inject method just better? Or am I missing out some good method of troubleshooting when the queens do the runaround? I would advice you just to stay with camera hotkeys. It's not only about queens take pilgrimage trips, it's about events in the game where queens can be killed and it takes time to set up which queen is which. Injecting with camera hotkeys is a bit slower, but I don't think the second cut is worth potentially lost production. | ||
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hearters
Singapore224 Posts
Also, when I do 15 pool, 16 hatch, my injects don't sync. Do the pros try to sync them asap or just inject? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 15 2013 18:18 hearters wrote: When my new hatch is out of sync on injects, is it better to wait and sync it, or inject it asap? Also, when I do 15 pool, 16 hatch, my injects don't sync. Do the pros try to sync them asap or just inject? No never wait. If it gets out of sync honestly it won't be that way for long just because you'll forget to inject for 26 seconds or something and both hatcheries will be available for it at some point. I have never had this desync problem but I wouldn't wait if this happened no reason to. | ||
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