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On March 27 2015 23:31 TRaFFiC wrote:
re gate expand: I learned a build I dub the "Kirk build" because a midlevel na gm does it every game. It is good against gate expands because if you miss the information you need, you're fine anyway. It's 3:45 gas. 3 queens total. 5:45 rw. take second gas when saturation on nat is decent. From here make 6-9 roaches, some lings, get lair, evo, and take third around 70 supply. With this setup, any gateway agression will be smashed. with the double queen shooting down the MSC. When you take your third vs gate expand, you better keep it because the cost of losing it very well might lose you the game.
*Questions*
-I was watching vibe's stream and he was describing a concept he called "aggro." He said that every unit has a range at which it initiates its attack when on a-move. I could be mistaken, but I believe it's different from the "normal" range. Is this true?
-Often when stacking drones at game start, you will have a larva pop up for a fraction of a second while you're stacking the workers. Is it still worth it to stack at this point?
is there any chance you can come up with a concrete build order or vod?
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On March 28 2015 10:12 Terence Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2015 23:31 TRaFFiC wrote:
re gate expand: I learned a build I dub the "Kirk build" because a midlevel na gm does it every game. It is good against gate expands because if you miss the information you need, you're fine anyway. It's 3:45 gas. 3 queens total. 5:45 rw. take second gas when saturation on nat is decent. From here make 6-9 roaches, some lings, get lair, evo, and take third around 70 supply. With this setup, any gateway agression will be smashed. with the double queen shooting down the MSC. When you take your third vs gate expand, you better keep it because the cost of losing it very well might lose you the game.
*Questions*
-I was watching vibe's stream and he was describing a concept he called "aggro." He said that every unit has a range at which it initiates its attack when on a-move. I could be mistaken, but I believe it's different from the "normal" range. Is this true?
-Often when stacking drones at game start, you will have a larva pop up for a fraction of a second while you're stacking the workers. Is it still worth it to stack at this point?
is there any chance you can come up with a concrete build order or vod?
His stream is http://www.twitch.tv/kirksc/profile
If you check his VODs, he probably does it every game vs P even if P opens nexus/forge first. Get to 2 base saturation as fast as possible. 18 drones per base is fine b/c you will inevitably make buildings. Once 2 base, 2 gas saturation is reached, he will make 8-9 roaches, and then right up to 70 supply with lings. Then lair, evo, third, in that order.
Since drones take 17 seconds to make compared to extractors 30, you want to make the second geyser in advance of the production (say approx 9-13 drones).
I wouldn't recommend using it as a pressure on the Protoss walls on most maps (*edit* or vs forge/nexus first builds). Too many times have I been dealt the forcefields of death. Though sometimes you can snipe the forge and get away.
Here's a replay of me attempting it.
http://www.sc2share.com/BNT
I've since changed my play style heading into mid game, but the opening is good with the exception that I should take 3rd before even paying the 25 min for 3rd extractor at around 8:00. The faster you get that down, the faster you can hit 3 base saturation.
I wouldn't go 2 techs on 2 base like I did in the rep. Choose roach or hydra, but not both, and then transition to sh like a good zergie. :D
Playing against Stargate is kinda tricky compared to Twilight or 4 gate where you just make roach ling. You either need to keep making queens to match his air count or get a fast lair for some hydras. Rangeless hydras really do the trick of getting rid of those pesky phoenix, but they are garbage heading into the late game while queens gain value over time. If you can do it with the queens, go for it.
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I don't agree with any of traffic's advice, or that build. I wouldn't advise using it.
If they open forge first, later forge/stargate and scout sensibly before taking their third then you're behind. You will lose to every immortal all in (except the 1 gas immortal zealot) if you invest into 8 roaches before your third.
2 base full mineral saturation , 2 base gas saturation before making units will actually be too late to stop a gate-cyber-nexus 4 gate.
roach hydra is good depending on their composition actually.
Don't make rangeless hydras ever, least of all against phoenix. Yes, queens are good. Both are responses to different stargate units and follow up techs from the protoss. Queens scale better against stargate into robo for example, but you want to be making hydras against stargate into twilight.
To the person asking about overlord spreading on Vaani - The Korean zergs send the first overlord to the terran natural, and the second towards the high ground spot in front of their own third to check for a proxy racks. The second then heads back towards their own ramp to spot for reaper movements, or towards either of the high ground spots in front of the terran ramp to see whether a reaper is crossing the map (and later on hellion numbers). This spot also allows it to be a sacrifical scouting overlord along with the first overlord if it takes the right high ground position. The first overlord spots the timing of the cc then sits in the dead space behind the ramp that leads from their main to their in base natural. The third overlord is sent in front of their own base to spot for reapers. The subsequent overlords are rallied around your base to spot hellion/banshee movements, and once you have a ring of vision around your base towards the right hand side dead space (since drops will always come from this direction). If the first overlord is killed by a 1racks marine opening, make sure the second is on the high ground position on the right hand side so you can still scout their third cc/follow up.
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Can you have too many drones? I feel like when I have an upwards of 80 drones my army is awfully small, especially when making ultras.
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On March 28 2015 22:28 entropy. wrote:
I don't agree with any of traffic's advice, or that build. I wouldn't advise using it.
If they open forge first, later forge/stargate and scout sensibly before taking their third then you're behind. You will lose to every immortal all in (except the 1 gas immortal zealot) if you invest into 8 roaches before your third.
2 base full mineral saturation , 2 base gas saturation before making units will actually be too late to stop a gate-cyber-nexus 4 gate.
roach hydra is good depending on their composition actually.
Don't make rangeless hydras ever, least of all against phoenix. Yes, queens are good. Both are responses to different stargate units and follow up techs from the protoss. Queens scale better against stargate into robo for example, but you want to be making hydras against stargate into twilight.
Not sure if you noticed, I was responding to a gateway expand build. I also wouldn't do it vs nexus/forge first.
2 base mineral saturation is ideal for unit production, but the 5:45 rw will give you the power to hit that R button whenever you scout gateway aggression incoming. Adjustments always need to be made depending on what build you're facing obviously.
The strengths of the build are the later than usual gas (3:45) which allows you to get speed just in time to help your roaches out and the 3rd queen for early creep spread and fighting msc.
On March 29 2015 08:35 pmtang wrote:
Can you have too many drones? I feel like when I have an upwards of 80 drones my army is awfully small, especially when making ultras.
Of course you can have too many drones, though it largely depends on opinion and unit composition. I wouldn't go higher than 80 unless I'm planning to make static defense. You can drone up to say 100, then make 20 spines/spores. 75 seems to be the sweet spot for most pros.
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On March 28 2015 08:06 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 02:24 brickrd wrote:On March 28 2015 01:16 AbouSV wrote:
Am I the only that always have difficulties to start the first drone?
To explain it: at the start of every game, if I try to select my hatch and I press 'S'-'D' too quickly, nothing will happen.
Most games I just select the hatch and press 'sdsdsdsd' to be sure the first drone starts soon enough, and only then I start sending my overlord and stuff.
This can be very troublesome, especially when I take 5/10 seconds to notice it (like after the gl hf and camera hotkeys). i never ever have this problem unless i just bungle the keypress on my keyboard. i can't imagine why you would have that issue other than computer performance concerns? maybe play on a lower setting? or maybe your keyboard is unreliable? I used to have this issue too while using a wireless rubber dome keyboard. This doesn't occur anymore with my Razer Blackwidow, so I think it might be the keyboard's fault for him too.
My keyboard should be fine, I changed it about a year ago for a Durandal Tesoro which, appart from this specific moment has no problem. For the rest of the game, it is really because of my miscontrol or a drone passing where the other one wants to build and sometimme cancelling the order or trying to start a upgrade missing 5 or 10 min/gas x)
And about the computer, my only suspicion is that it take a few hundred miliseconds to be operational at the start of a game, but I don't really see why, my hardware configuration itself is more than ok.
I was hoping for someone to have a magic trick like often here, but I guess I will keep doublechecking indeed, thanks anyway!
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On March 29 2015 18:42 AbouSV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 08:06 MoosyDoosy wrote:On March 28 2015 02:24 brickrd wrote:On March 28 2015 01:16 AbouSV wrote:
Am I the only that always have difficulties to start the first drone?
To explain it: at the start of every game, if I try to select my hatch and I press 'S'-'D' too quickly, nothing will happen.
Most games I just select the hatch and press 'sdsdsdsd' to be sure the first drone starts soon enough, and only then I start sending my overlord and stuff.
This can be very troublesome, especially when I take 5/10 seconds to notice it (like after the gl hf and camera hotkeys). i never ever have this problem unless i just bungle the keypress on my keyboard. i can't imagine why you would have that issue other than computer performance concerns? maybe play on a lower setting? or maybe your keyboard is unreliable? I used to have this issue too while using a wireless rubber dome keyboard. This doesn't occur anymore with my Razer Blackwidow, so I think it might be the keyboard's fault for him too. My keyboard should be fine, I changed it about a year ago for a Durandal Tesoro which, appart from this specific moment has no problem. For the rest of the game, it is really because of my miscontrol or a drone passing where the other one wants to build and sometimme cancelling the order or trying to start a upgrade missing 5 or 10 min/gas x) And about the computer, my only suspicion is that it take a few hundred miliseconds to be operational at the start of a game, but I don't really see why, my hardware configuration itself is more than ok. I was hoping for someone to have a magic trick like often here, but I guess I will keep doublechecking indeed, thanks anyway!
So this is not the Alt bug, i.e the one where you have to press Alt once after Alt-Tabbing into the game in order to be able to do anything?
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How do you deal with a mass cloaked banshee rush as Zerg? I do Blade's Triple Barrel Bust in ZvT with enormous success normally (I have 89% win rate versus Terran this season).
With my ling pressure, I scouted 1 rax and 1 marine at his front, very little defence for the time in the game. I could see he had no natural with my ovie. I knew it must be a rush of some kind, so i built a spore in each base as a reaction.
But then 3 banshees, shortly followed by a 4th and 5th arrived in my natural, and targetted it down. They just stay out of spore range (on the other side of the base), and if I move the spore, they target it down before it can burrow. I should have built extra queens, but I'm still not sure even if I had I would have survived, given the spore-avoidance technique. I feel like without 2 spores in each base I had no chance, but I couldn't be sure it was mass bashees until too late.
What is the proper response here, please?
I'm in Gold league, so don't be too harsh on macro mistakes. I just want the general strategy that should defeat this kind of build.
Dropbox link to the replay:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20995695/sc2/Secret Spring Z v 1 base mass banshees.SC2Replay
Haighstrom
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is there anyway to tell from probe scout timing what opening the opponent went for? (IE: gate expand, forge first, nexus first etc) I know if there is its not conclusive.
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On March 29 2015 20:43 Haighstrom wrote:How do you deal with a mass cloaked banshee rush as Zerg? I do Blade's Triple Barrel Bust in ZvT with enormous success normally (I have 89% win rate versus Terran this season). With my ling pressure, I scouted 1 rax and 1 marine at his front, very little defence for the time in the game. I could see he had no natural with my ovie. I knew it must be a rush of some kind, so i built a spore in each base as a reaction. But then 3 banshees, shortly followed by a 4th and 5th arrived in my natural, and targetted it down. They just stay out of spore range (on the other side of the base), and if I move the spore, they target it down before it can burrow. I should have built extra queens, but I'm still not sure even if I had I would have survived, given the spore-avoidance technique. I feel like without 2 spores in each base I had no chance, but I couldn't be sure it was mass bashees until too late. What is the proper response here, please? I'm in Gold league, so don't be too harsh on macro mistakes. I just want the general strategy that should defeat this kind of build. Dropbox link to the replay: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20995695/sc2/Secret Spring Z v 1 base mass banshees.SC2ReplayHaighstrom
hi!
I looked at the replay and your opening delays your queens a little bit, since the hatch is late. Its basically an allin vs an allin. You say next time you need to build more queens, thats correct. But before you can do that you need to make sure what the hell you are facing :b its easy to know that you need 6 queens when you have 4-5 banshee suddenly in your base, but by then its too late. Your overlord scouting his nat is nice! and it let you know that something is up, but you need to fly it or the one on the opposing side in his base at around 6 mins, You can do both at once and since he only had two marines they aren't going to deny you shit when it comes to scouting.
So when you see two port banshee you know you need to build queens asap, though I personally might try and defend with less. With a normal hatch first you should have at least 4 by the time you see whats up, so I would skip one queen and try to defend with 5 and rush to lair. Get mutas out and win the game. Double starport is about as allin as it gets.
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On March 29 2015 22:25 JacobShock wrote:
is there anyway to tell from probe scout timing what opening the opponent went for? (IE: gate expand, forge first, nexus first etc) I know if there is its not conclusive.
Here's what I know: If the probe arrives shortly before you place your 15 pool, he scouted after the pylon. Nexus first is most likely, but generally everything is possible. If the probe arrives shortly after you place your 15 pool 15 hatch, Protoss scouted after a forge or gateway first. This timing lines up well with a cannon rush, so look out for that. Nexus first is fairly unlikely with this timing.
I don't think you can base a lot of your decision-making on probe scout timings. Unless you play at a very high level, they are only relatively weak tells.
@ Haighstrom
Adding to what JacobShock said:
If you see that a Terran player isn't mining from a second base around 6:00–7:00, you have to focus on things that keep you alive versus a one-base Terran. Those are, roughly in descending order of importance:
• queens,
• one spine
• a baneling nest + a few zerglings OR a roach warren,
• spores,
• more spines,
• zerglings speed,
• a lot of zerglings,
• a lair for overseers.
Things that should be deprioritised in those situations include:
• full two-base saturation
• evo chamber upgrades, especially double upgrades,
• going multiple tech paths (roaches + banelings),
• a third base, obviously.
Also, try to avoid setups where you have 4 gas, but not two-base saturation on minerals. These will give you more gas than you can use.
So if you see a Terran on one base, you want to get four queens quickly because those also help against ground-based all-ins. A baneling nest or roach warren (very rough timing: 5:30–6:00) helps you be safe against marines and hellbats, and spores are good against drops and banshees. It's mostly a matter of experience, the more games you play against one base, the more you'll see why it isn't used much at all at high levels.
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On March 29 2015 23:39 velvex wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 22:25 JacobShock wrote:
is there anyway to tell from probe scout timing what opening the opponent went for? (IE: gate expand, forge first, nexus first etc) I know if there is its not conclusive. Here's what I know: If the probe arrives shortly before you place your 15 pool, he scouted after the pylon. Nexus first is most likely, but generally everything is possible. If the probe arrives shortly after you place your 15 pool 15 hatch, Protoss scouted after a forge or gateway first. This timing lines up well with a cannon rush, so look out for that. Nexus first is fairly unlikely with this timing. I don't think you can base a lot of your decision-making on probe scout timings. Unless you play at a very high level, they are only relatively weak tells.
Thank you, that's very helpful.  And you are right you its probably more applicable at higher levels of play. I ask because I just watched a replay where Hydra starts to do a gas then pool speedling build against Zest who in the prior game went for nexus then gateway (very greedy) but he never started the speed even though he mined the 100 gas needed and from what I can tell he decided that entirely based on the timing of the probe scout, either that or because he figured the build wouldn't work if scouted, though I find that unlikely.
I figured knowing what the probe scout timing could mean on 2 or 4 spawn maps (though that makes the timings even more confusing)but it is at least helpful knowledge, so thanks again.
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On March 29 2015 22:42 JacobShock wrote:hi! I looked at the replay and your opening delays your queens a little bit, since the hatch is late. Its basically an allin vs an allin. You say next time you need to build more queens, thats correct. But before you can do that you need to make sure what the hell you are facing :b its easy to know that you need 6 queens when you have 4-5 banshee suddenly in your base, but by then its too late. Your overlord scouting his nat is nice! and it let you know that something is up, but you need to fly it or the one on the opposing side in his base at around 6 mins, You can do both at once and since he only had two marines they aren't going to deny you shit when it comes to scouting. So when you see two port banshee you know you need to build queens asap, though I personally might try and defend with less. With a normal hatch first you should have at least 4 by the time you see whats up, so I would skip one queen and try to defend with 5 and rush to lair. Get mutas out and win the game. Double starport is about as allin as it gets.
Thank you for taking the time to watch the replay and respond.
So basically overlord scout at 6 mins (probably with both ovies), because by that time he should have expanded so it's worth to sacrifice an ovie to see what he's doing. Against this guy I would have seen the 2port banshee for sure, as he had 1 marine, but against a slightly better opponent with multiple marines i could have sent both overlords in and definitely seen what he was up to > 6 queens > rush mutas > win.
OK thank you. Not overlord scouting at 6 min is my main mistake there. Lesson learned.
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On March 29 2015 23:39 velvex wrote:
@ Haighstrom
Adding to what JacobShock said:
If you see that a Terran player isn't mining from a second base around 6:00–7:00, you have to focus on things that keep you alive versus a one-base Terran. Those are, roughly in descending order of importance:
• queens,
• one spine
• a baneling nest + a few zerglings OR a roach warren,
• spores,
• more spines,
• zerglings speed,
• a lot of zerglings,
• a lair for overseers.
Things that should be deprioritised in those situations include:
• full two-base saturation
• evo chamber upgrades, especially double upgrades,
• going multiple tech paths (roaches + banelings),
• a third base, obviously.
Also, try to avoid setups where you have 4 gas, but not two-base saturation on minerals. These will give you more gas than you can use.
So if you see a Terran on one base, you want to get four queens quickly because those also help against ground-based all-ins. A baneling nest or roach warren (very rough timing: 5:30–6:00) helps you be safe against marines and hellbats, and spores are good against drops and banshees. It's mostly a matter of experience, the more games you play against one base, the more you'll see why it isn't used much at all at high levels.
Thank you. The queens were what was missing, so I'll prioritise those next time as queens don't stop me droning. Also good to know the timings (i.e. 6-7 mins = late).
One thing that's tough at lower levels, is that players do tend to expand slower, so things which would mean "it's definitely an all-in" if it was the GSL, can actually just mean the player is bad, and if I defend too hard (e.g. too many spores and spines and cut drones and build units), I can end up behind if they don't all in. Extra queens is a good middle ground where I can still ensure to stay ahead on economy while being safe.
Cheers.
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On March 29 2015 23:53 JacobShock wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 23:39 velvex wrote:On March 29 2015 22:25 JacobShock wrote:
is there anyway to tell from probe scout timing what opening the opponent went for? (IE: gate expand, forge first, nexus first etc) I know if there is its not conclusive. Here's what I know: If the probe arrives shortly before you place your 15 pool, he scouted after the pylon. Nexus first is most likely, but generally everything is possible. If the probe arrives shortly after you place your 15 pool 15 hatch, Protoss scouted after a forge or gateway first. This timing lines up well with a cannon rush, so look out for that. Nexus first is fairly unlikely with this timing. I don't think you can base a lot of your decision-making on probe scout timings. Unless you play at a very high level, they are only relatively weak tells. Thank you, that's very helpful. And you are right you its probably more applicable at higher levels of play. I ask because I just watched a replay where Hydra starts to do a gas then pool speedling build against Zest who in the prior game went for nexus then gateway (very greedy) but he never started the speed even though he mined the 100 gas needed and from what I can tell he decided that entirely based on the timing of the probe scout, either that or because he figured the build wouldn't work if scouted, though I find that unlikely. I figured knowing what the probe scout timing could mean on 2 or 4 spawn maps (though that makes the timings even more confusing)but it is at least helpful knowledge, so thanks again.
it's very very dependent on level. in lower leagues almost every toss scouts after pylon no matter what they're doing, super paranoid scouting or no scouting at all is typical around ~gold/plat. but generally speaking for players who know what they're doing a 9scout often means a particularly aggressive cannon rush. a probe crossing the map around the ~1:30s is a pretty good reason to not go hatch first because even if it's not forge he's just going to block you anyway. the other common reason to 9scout is to be "greedysafe" with nexus first, in which case you can go 15p 15h 14OL 14three pairs of lings and put on pressure.
other than 9scout the only other typical scout timings are after gate/forge or after nexus first. nexus first goes down around 2:25 i believe so the probe will be moving across around 2:40., and gate/forge scout of course is a bit earlier than that. i'm giving rough guesses at the timings but when you've played enough games it's really easy to just feel it out. i know the timings automatically from seeing the probe and i'm not GM or pro or anything like that. but if you don't drone scout you can't 100% guarantee it without seeing the building
i really really love drone scouting every single time in zvp on 2player maps. you can delay nexus first and you get free 3hatch against everything but forge, and lots of toss get paranoid about hatchblocks and pull off extra probes. if you're lower league just make sure you overlord scout his pylons after going 3hatch because some players will do stupid shit like adding a forge after gate before nexus and cannon rushing you, and you also want to know if hes responding with a chronoed zealot
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On March 29 2015 20:43 Haighstrom wrote:How do you deal with a mass cloaked banshee rush as Zerg? I do Blade's Triple Barrel Bust in ZvT with enormous success normally (I have 89% win rate versus Terran this season). With my ling pressure, I scouted 1 rax and 1 marine at his front, very little defence for the time in the game. I could see he had no natural with my ovie. I knew it must be a rush of some kind, so i built a spore in each base as a reaction. But then 3 banshees, shortly followed by a 4th and 5th arrived in my natural, and targetted it down. They just stay out of spore range (on the other side of the base), and if I move the spore, they target it down before it can burrow. I should have built extra queens, but I'm still not sure even if I had I would have survived, given the spore-avoidance technique. I feel like without 2 spores in each base I had no chance, but I couldn't be sure it was mass bashees until too late. What is the proper response here, please? I'm in Gold league, so don't be too harsh on macro mistakes. I just want the general strategy that should defeat this kind of build. Dropbox link to the replay: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20995695/sc2/Secret Spring Z v 1 base mass banshees.SC2ReplayHaighstrom
Adding on to what others say, keep on making Queens, keep the Spores in place, and save energy for Transfuses. Save your first 100 gas for Lair and then make an Overseer before going to hunt the Banshees down while throwing down a Spire. Ling counterattacks or at least some soft pressure with spare minerals are also a good distraction for the Terran to lose the Banshees. If they start getting ~5 Banshees, grab an extra Spore at each base just in case.
Also, I would Overlord scout at 6:20 and not 6:00. It's more or less the sweetspot where you'll be able to scout before a possible Viking pops and see the Starport moving to the Tech Lab, etc.
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On March 30 2015 07:23 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2015 20:43 Haighstrom wrote:How do you deal with a mass cloaked banshee rush as Zerg? I do Blade's Triple Barrel Bust in ZvT with enormous success normally (I have 89% win rate versus Terran this season). With my ling pressure, I scouted 1 rax and 1 marine at his front, very little defence for the time in the game. I could see he had no natural with my ovie. I knew it must be a rush of some kind, so i built a spore in each base as a reaction. But then 3 banshees, shortly followed by a 4th and 5th arrived in my natural, and targetted it down. They just stay out of spore range (on the other side of the base), and if I move the spore, they target it down before it can burrow. I should have built extra queens, but I'm still not sure even if I had I would have survived, given the spore-avoidance technique. I feel like without 2 spores in each base I had no chance, but I couldn't be sure it was mass bashees until too late. What is the proper response here, please? I'm in Gold league, so don't be too harsh on macro mistakes. I just want the general strategy that should defeat this kind of build. Dropbox link to the replay: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20995695/sc2/Secret Spring Z v 1 base mass banshees.SC2ReplayHaighstrom Also, I would Overlord scout at 6:20 and not 6:00. It's more or less the sweetspot where you'll be able to scout before a possible Viking pops and see the Starport moving to the Tech Lab, etc.
This is a one base double starport. The sweetspot you are talking about is completely irrelevant since the terran has not invested in an earlier cc.
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hey! I just played a pretty straight forward ZvT, where I got outplayed and lost in the end. here's the replay: http://drop.sc/395371
now, what were my mistakes? the ones I see are:
- a bit more drones would help,
- too many engagments off of creep, not enough replacing of the creep,
- sub-par micro in most of the engagments (like losing 43 lings to 2 widow mines and also could attack from a bigger concave),
- some small ones (like not having vision of the 4th and 5th base with an overlord/no burrowed ling under expansion).
any others?
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EPT
