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On April 14 2015 19:23 reapsen wrote:
Has anybody experienced any success stories with the new swarmhost by now?
I fiddled around with them in a few games and they just seem bad. The flying upgrade actually seem to make the unit worse. The locust fly so slow, so that you waste a lot of their lifespan by flying. And they are completly defenseless while flying. Small amount of well positioned static D and almost no locust make it to the ground. And they even try to land at melee range which makes no sense to me.
in my small experience the point of the flying upgrade is positional and map dependent. for example one of the new maps (coda i think or echo, not good with the names yet) has a close by air position tucked underneath the top main base and close to one of the third/fourth locations. with flying locusts you can pretty easily pop them into the main or hit the third at the same time. i don't really see the speed of the locusts as a big issue because the swarm hosts themselves are so fast now. i also had a game on iron fortress where we were horizontal positions and i did a late switch when both of us had taken the close horizontal expansions as 4th/5ths.
regardless, i think you have a point in that the flying upgrade is not always immediately necessary - which is fine by me, as i think "you must research this for this unit to be useful" upgrades are silly anyway.
maybe you're making too many? with the new gas cost and DPS, i think it's kind of counterproductive to go for a huge swell of them as your midgame tech, it's kind of like massing oracles now. you only need a few to get a lot of harassing DPS out on the map and then you can go into vipers, corruptors, infestors, ultras, etc. whatever you need next (although finding the right endgame mix against a protoss who isn't crippled by the harass has been a struggle for me so far  )
anyway i don't really know if they're "good" yet, but i've had success with them, yes. as long as they aren't seen running across the map it's pretty hard to be prepared for them when there's a roach or roach/hydra army on the map threatening another location, and they can actually retreat without support now which gives a small pack of them more longevity.
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Hey, I just started with Starcraft2 again, havn't played really much since WoL so I have huge problem in the mid/late game.
What is my late game strategy for ZvP, ZvT and ZvZ. I don't feel I have problem with micro and macro since I didn't have problem with it in WoL, and I feel it's coming back. But I have no clue about the unit combination mid/late game. And if someone have time maybe some openings in the different matchups, I use the old WoL openings and feel they do me good in gold at the moment.
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I've been much more active over the past week or so since the swarm host nerf and I've come to the conclusion that there's absolutely no point in playing a game vs terran or protoss. I've been getting trashed by garbage terrans a league or two lower than me who 2 base hellbat banshee into mech and there's really nothing I can do about it. It denies the 3rd and they just plant theirs down first and continue the game significantly ahead and there's no way to recover without swarm host. I'm protesting this game by going afk in every game I can find until they fix the swarm host. If you're diamond league come for free wins!
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On April 17 2015 05:47 toddinator716 wrote:
I've been much more active over the past week or so since the swarm host nerf and I've come to the conclusion that there's absolutely no point in playing a game vs terran or protoss. I've been getting trashed by garbage terrans a league or two lower than me who 2 base hellbat banshee into mech and there's really nothing I can do about it. It denies the 3rd and they just plant theirs down first and continue the game significantly ahead and there's no way to recover without swarm host. I'm protesting this game by going afk in every game I can find until they fix the swarm host. If you're diamond league come for free wins!
You might want a safer BO if trollbat banshe can deny you the third :D
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On April 17 2015 05:47 toddinator716 wrote:
I've been much more active over the past week or so since the swarm host nerf and I've come to the conclusion that there's absolutely no point in playing a game vs terran or protoss. I've been getting trashed by garbage terrans a league or two lower than me who 2 base hellbat banshee into mech and there's really nothing I can do about it. It denies the 3rd and they just plant theirs down first and continue the game significantly ahead and there's no way to recover without swarm host. I'm protesting this game by going afk in every game I can find until they fix the swarm host. If you're diamond league come for free wins!
So i agree with you that its not really fun playing lategame toss or terran as zerg anymore because it just feels a little bit impossible beating their big armies, but before you die to that, play a safer build if your third gets denyed over and over again.
Maybe you overdrone or the build is just not right?
Fix that before the other problems!
You can look on YT for PiGs Tutorial to gasless ZvT. I play it in Mid Master League and it does quite well if you execute it right. You can play it like Snute with an pretty early roachwarren and 3-6 Roaches before your upgrades and you are 100% safe against any kind of Hellbat/Banshee/Marine Build if you learn to execute it!
Greetings and happy laddering!
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Mech .... No idea what to do now. How are you guys doing it?
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cycle between muta/roach/mass ling switches or mass roach drops, if you can predict what mech is making when and where it shouldn't be to much of a problem to find cracks in their defense.
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In theory since pdd are 20 seconds now roach hydra viper should make a comeback. Or broodlord corruptor infestor. Or ultra hydra. Or even mass mutas tech swop. Maybe hydras will have a role vs mech now? It's amazing what pdd denied now that I think about it.
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On April 17 2015 21:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
In theory since pdd are 20 seconds now roach hydra viper should make a comeback. Or broodlord corruptor infestor. Or ultra hydra. Or even mass mutas tech swop. Maybe hydras will have a role vs mech now? It's amazing what pdd denied now that I think about it.
Well, it still denies it. I've been trying those muta/roach things, but most people turtle so hard on 3 bases that it's impossible to find any cracks, and since swarm host can't really put any pressure on I just die to the inevitable 200/200 mech push. If I try to tech to counter that early on I get killed by all kinds of runbies(hellion, banshee, hellbat).
I do win vs mech sometimes, it's just not very reliable. It seems like it's 100% the meching player losing the game, not me winning it.
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How do you beat the mech deathball without SH now? I never really liked the sh style but sometimes you were kind of forced into it. What are you guys doing now? Massive drops? Seems kind of gimmicky and easy to counter
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On April 18 2015 13:14 crbox wrote:
How do you beat the mech deathball without SH now? I never really liked the sh style but sometimes you were kind of forced into it. What are you guys doing now? Massive drops? Seems kind of gimmicky and easy to counter
Try to play roach/hydra with vipers. Cast blinding cloud on tanks/thors and try to attack terran from two different sides. You can also try to add some ultras to your army composition.
I also have a question about ZvT. I'm almost always losing vs terran when I'm trying to play ling/banes and mutas (current meta). I'm looking for general tips referring to army managment, how should I engage terran's bio army with medivacs and widow mines? Even if I clear up terran army there's always another wave so I get wrecked.
I also don't know what to do when terran is settled with 3 full saturated bases, I'm obviously trying to expand to 4th hatch then but drops are killing me.
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On April 19 2015 21:17 abstrahulum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2015 13:14 crbox wrote:
How do you beat the mech deathball without SH now? I never really liked the sh style but sometimes you were kind of forced into it. What are you guys doing now? Massive drops? Seems kind of gimmicky and easy to counter Try to play roach/hydra with vipers. Cast blinding cloud on tanks/thors and try to attack terran from two different sides. You can also try to add some ultras to your army composition. I also have a question about ZvT. I'm almost always losing vs terran when I'm trying to play ling/banes and mutas (current meta). I'm looking for general tips referring to army managment, how should I engage terran's bio army with medivacs and widow mines? Even if I clear up terran army there's always another wave so I get wrecked. I also don't know what to do when terran is settled with 3 full saturated bases, I'm obviously trying to expand to 4th hatch then but drops are killing me.
You should have gone for 4th + macro Hatch @10:30 and have been making units after saturating your 3rd to prepare for the 2 Medivac + Bio push which comes at around this time as well. Provided you do this and have a decent Overlord spread you should be able to spot drops, defend any push, and drone your 4th before getting ready for the next timing.
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On April 18 2015 13:14 crbox wrote:
How do you beat the mech deathball without SH now? I never really liked the sh style but sometimes you were kind of forced into it. What are you guys doing now? Massive drops? Seems kind of gimmicky and easy to counter
The best way I've found to deal with mech is opening 2 base muta (which I love vs bio as well) trying to keep them off their third with those mutas for as long as possible while getting 1/1 and Roach speed then maxing on roaches while going up to 4+ bases. If you don't win or get ahead by catching them offguard with the tech switches or mutas originally then you'll end up in the shitty situation which is lategame mech w/o swarmhosts. At that point in time you'll basically be countering his composition which means having Vipers/Infestors for support while balancing Roaches/Hydras/Ultras as your core/remax in an attempt to crush his army eventually. Denying bases is essential late game since actually winning an engagement (not just trading efficiently) is more dependent on not facing a maxed out mech army.
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On April 18 2015 13:14 crbox wrote:
How do you beat the mech deathball without SH now? I never really liked the sh style but sometimes you were kind of forced into it. What are you guys doing now? Massive drops? Seems kind of gimmicky and easy to counter
Hi.
I am having trouble against mech too. I have had the best results rushing for broodlords. Stay alive with roach queen and static defense and push with broodlord corruptor queen. If you dont kill him with that push u can try to continue going for that composition or remaxing with sth different and quicker. U have to skip mutas to do it though. If anyone have had success with different strategies I would love to learn them.
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On April 18 2015 13:14 crbox wrote:
How do you beat the mech deathball without SH now? I never really liked the sh style but sometimes you were kind of forced into it. What are you guys doing now? Massive drops? Seems kind of gimmicky and easy to counter
Hi.
I am having trouble against mech too. I have had the best results rushing for broodlords. Stay alive with roach queen and static defense and push with broodlord corruptor queen. If you dont kill him with that push u can try to continue going for that composition or remaxing with sth different and quicker. U have to skip mutas to do it though. If anyone have had success with different strategies I would love to learn them.
Having best success vs mech with no upgrade fast roach hydra viper (I think you can find Hyun's method here somewhere).
Protoss is a large problem as without the threat of SH they seem to be able to get high tech units and 3 bases pretty easily. I've had the best success with a 3 hatch 40-ish drones +1 mass speedling timing-- saw Jadong do this once on king sejong where you put your first 100 gas into +1 melee then next 100 on ling speed.
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Is blowing up a planetary fortress with banelings a good idea? I know it costs a lot of gas, but most of the time, if I attack it with just my lings and maybe some Ultras and hold the banelings in the background, the PF lasts long enough for the terran reinforcements to arrive. Well then a part of my lings is already dead and i can take only a very unfavorable fight or retreat. The PF still stands and I have lost a lot of my army. Going there with ~25 lings, morphing ~20 to banelings (extra five to eat the first shots of the PF and/or trigger mines) and then just blow it up seems more cost efficient... and it certainly feels better 
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its super cost-inefficient, only do this if you're very far ahead or if denying the PF can seal the game into an unwinable position for T.
mutas or ultras are generally the way to kill them.
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On April 20 2015 21:49 Archiatrus wrote:Is blowing up a planetary fortress with banelings a good idea? I know it costs a lot of gas, but most of the time, if I attack it with just my lings and maybe some Ultras and hold the banelings in the background, the PF lasts long enough for the terran reinforcements to arrive. Well then a part of my lings is already dead and i can take only a very unfavorable fight or retreat. The PF still stands and I have lost a lot of my army. Going there with ~25 lings, morphing ~20 to banelings (extra five to eat the first shots of the PF and/or trigger mines) and then just blow it up seems more cost efficient... and it certainly feels better
It depends on the game state. If the Terran isn't parade pushing or the game state's gone past that, I wait for the Terran to move out. When they do so, I circle around their army and split mine into two parts. Most of my Lings, some Banes, and the Mutas go into the Terran's nat and main while most of my Banes go to the Terran's fourth to blow up the PF there. The Terran will have to go back to save his infrastructure during which time I remax, bring the Mutas back and prepare for what's pretty much their all-in push from here.
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On April 20 2015 22:09 Meavis wrote:
its super cost-inefficient, only do this if you're very far ahead or if denying the PF can seal the game into an unwinable position for T.
mutas or ultras are generally the way to kill them.
But if you lose 3 Ultras the banes would have been cheaper (2 if you have +3 banes and all connect). The same for 4-6 Mutas. Ok you really don't have to lose so much if you retreat in time, but then the chances of success are smaller too, right? And you will always lose something while attacking a PF. At least some lings...
On April 20 2015 22:13 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:49 Archiatrus wrote:Is blowing up a planetary fortress with banelings a good idea? I know it costs a lot of gas, but most of the time, if I attack it with just my lings and maybe some Ultras and hold the banelings in the background, the PF lasts long enough for the terran reinforcements to arrive. Well then a part of my lings is already dead and i can take only a very unfavorable fight or retreat. The PF still stands and I have lost a lot of my army. Going there with ~25 lings, morphing ~20 to banelings (extra five to eat the first shots of the PF and/or trigger mines) and then just blow it up seems more cost efficient... and it certainly feels better It depends on the game state. If the Terran isn't parade pushing or the game state's gone past that, I wait for the Terran to move out. When they do so, I circle around their army and split mine into two parts. Most of my Lings, some Banes, and the Mutas go into the Terran's nat and main while most of my Banes go to the Terran's fourth to blow up the PF there. The Terran will have to go back to save his infrastructure during which time I remax, bring the Mutas back and prepare for what's pretty much their all-in push from here.
Sounds good. I will give it a try.
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What Meavis said is correct however. What I do puts the Terran in what's essentially a position which is impossible to recover from unless he wins from the counter push afterwards. So yeah, it should only be done as a checkmate move in that stalemate scenario where both of you are shadow boxing with your armies on the edge of creep.
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EPT
