EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 254
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
On April 21 2015 10:28 MoosyDoosy wrote: Well, I don't know whether to feel honored or not, but after reaching Diamond people have started using what seems to be called the SanGate. While I have no problem identifying it because it gives me nightmares like nothing else, I'm wondering how I should defend against this properly? More specifically, when to cut Drones, whether I should make a Spine at my nat and third on maps like Echo, and how many Lings or Roaches I should make. watch the part with suppy at the end | ||
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Maars
Canada20 Posts
This is in plat league by the way. edit** I had about 8 bases, tons of minerals and gas and he was on 4. Built tons of turrets and static defenses and I was just lost. Most frustrating and least fun game I've had. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 22 2015 03:17 GingerAle wrote: Hey, I'm stuck on what to do in a long game of tvz. This guy went mech and sat on 2 bases. slowly pushed to 3. I tried to attack with mutas, roaches, hyrdas, lings, banes a little bit of everything. He just stayed put and didnt move out. I teched to a shitload of ultras while expanding. I attacked and didnt dent him. I remaxed with ultras/roaches/hydras and waited for him. He didn't move and built about 20 banshees (cloacked) and attack my main. I then countered and just quit. This was the most frustrating game i've played and had no clue what to do. (I've only been playing sc2 for about 3 days and zerg since yesterday so maybe I'm missing something. This is in plat league by the way. edit** I had about 8 bases, tons of minerals and gas and he was on 4. Built tons of turrets and static defenses and I was just lost. Most frustrating and least fun game I've had. Keep attacking him with muta/roach and sniping thors/tanks. If you deny the 3rd, eventually the meching player mines out and he will not be able to rebuild. I think that after the SH nerf the best way to deal with mech is 2 base muta (because he's going to go hellbat banshee always) and then start switching between mutas and roach/hydra to force him into making units that won't be effective vs yours (kill thor/vikings with roach/hydra and spam mutas vs mass tanks). If you really have a much better economy, you should be able to just spam this (and probably get to vipers) until the mech dies out of starvation. If mech gets into a position where it can max out comfortably, I think people have had the most success with BL switches to suckerpunch it. | ||
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McMonroe22
United States40 Posts
On April 22 2015 03:17 GingerAle wrote: Hey, I'm stuck on what to do in a long game of tvz. This guy went mech and sat on 2 bases. slowly pushed to 3. I tried to attack with mutas, roaches, hyrdas, lings, banes a little bit of everything. He just stayed put and didnt move out. I teched to a shitload of ultras while expanding. I attacked and didnt dent him. I remaxed with ultras/roaches/hydras and waited for him. He didn't move and built about 20 banshees (cloacked) and attack my main. I then countered and just quit. This was the most frustrating game i've played and had no clue what to do. (I've only been playing sc2 for about 3 days and zerg since yesterday so maybe I'm missing something. This is in plat league by the way. edit** I had about 8 bases, tons of minerals and gas and he was on 4. Built tons of turrets and static defenses and I was just lost. Most frustrating and least fun game I've had. I have had great success vs mech by doing very basic things that you might have heard before and maybe have tried but never had used the right way. I'm talking about the viper. I literally go roach hydra viper and non-stop attack the meching player. To get to this point, you need to get a fast 4 base full economy. 4 base gas and minerals with a 5th base for the gas. Make sure you have 10 or so roaches to defend potential hellion aggression while droning this greedily. The next most important thing with this is to take your overlords and drop creep on every base on the map! This way you know their exact base count and you further delay them from taking new ones. Also, against a passive mech player, your creep queens will be free to turn the whole map into creep! Once you have the 80-90 drone economy, start massing roach hydra with 3 vipers for your initial attack. (Build more if you can! I prefer 6 for the mass abducts needed late game.) Make sure you stay on top of upgrades and tech paths because you will be able to afford it (At least two evo chambers for ranged and carapace upgrades, if you want a third for melee go for it! Also, make sure you have at least 1 spire for later utility). During your initial attack, you should focus on denying their third base if you can with blinding clouds on their tanks. If they have vikings, just use abducts instead and start adding more and more vipers. Pulls are incredibly good with the recent range buff! Many players make the mistake of only using blinding cloud vs mech but it's much more cost efficient to use pulls because with the range, you can pick off free units one at a time and with vipers, you can pull lots of units! If the mech player does hellion or banshee harass, building 5 or so mutas with an overseer with overlord speed in conjunction with your static defense at your bases will be fairly easy to defend. As the game progresses, most terrans won't be able to hold on for long if you control your vipers efficiently. Often times, they will have a turret ring outside their tank line which requires you to blinding cloud the turrets and then you may need a couple pulls to get their units in range of yours. At this point, a tech switch would be good. 8 brood lords and 16 corruptors with 3-6 vipers and a zergling hydra or hydra ultra or roach hydra force will usually crack the terran if they have managed to live this long on 3-4 bases. You can do a risky mass muta switch off roach hydra viper if you want a coin-flippy quick end. Often times I've seen zergs straight up lose because of the mass muta transition, but sometimes you'll get the win if they invested a lot in tanks and not viking raven. If you have any questions please ask, I've used this strategy successfully vs many top master terrans and 2 gms. So, I have a decent understanding on how to play this style. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On April 22 2015 03:17 GingerAle wrote: Hey, I'm stuck on what to do in a long game of tvz. This guy went mech and sat on 2 bases. slowly pushed to 3. I tried to attack with mutas, roaches, hyrdas, lings, banes a little bit of everything. He just stayed put and didnt move out. I teched to a shitload of ultras while expanding. I attacked and didnt dent him. I remaxed with ultras/roaches/hydras and waited for him. He didn't move and built about 20 banshees (cloacked) and attack my main. I then countered and just quit. This was the most frustrating game i've played and had no clue what to do. (I've only been playing sc2 for about 3 days and zerg since yesterday so maybe I'm missing something. This is in plat league by the way. edit** I had about 8 bases, tons of minerals and gas and he was on 4. Built tons of turrets and static defenses and I was just lost. Most frustrating and least fun game I've had. You need vipers with the mass ultras, and infestors if they have air. If the tanks are very spread out, pick them of with abduct, if they are clumped up, dark swarm and a-move. Just rushing into a defending mech player with ultra, riach, hydra or whatever without dark swarm won't work in general. | ||
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Maars
Canada20 Posts
Thanks again! | ||
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XxIDoMxX
Mexico4 Posts
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zelderan
United States163 Posts
On April 23 2015 05:38 GingerAle wrote: Thanks to everyone who replied to me! I figured it out haha. Worked on some other things at the same time. After about 5 days of starcraft I hit Diamond league! I'm pretty excited to work towards Master now haha. Thanks again! Grats man! Mind sharing what things you used to combat mech? I read the replies to your original question but wanted to know what you did. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
I keep saying I'm never gonna come back here but I always feel the need to after losing a bunch in a row. I need to learn the basics, the very basics. The shit most people learn in silver. I need to learn to not get supply blocked and to be able to macro while trying to move units. In the last games I played, I forgot to build drones/queens/overlords for over a minute cause I was dealing with 2 reapers in my base and trying to micro. I have no ability to multitask at all. How do I learn this? Scouting is also a big issue for me. You'd think someone who watches as much pro scene as me would know basically how to scout, but nope. I get caught off guard by literally every attack, and I always overdrone and have no units. How can I improve this? My mindset is also crap, but that's probably never gonna change. I rage and shit on myself hard after every loss. I tell my opponents how shit I am and how I will never get better. I don't know why I have to do this, but I feel like I'll break something if I don't get it out somehow. It's not losing, it's that I'm not improving. And that's why I need to get the basics down so well that I can actually feel improvment. I need to learn builds too, I currently for some retarded reason dont' learn them, it feels like I can't and I always forget them. This is 100% mental block I"m sure. Really though, should I just give up? I've only gotten worse at the game in the last few months, I used to be pushing high gold, now I am silver and can't get an honest win in that league even. Literally all you need to do is build units in silver and I still cant win. It's bad more my mental health, and I've broken too much shit from rage. What should I do? | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On April 28 2015 15:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: + Show Spoiler [Nevermind, just ignore. I need to quit…] + I keep saying I'm never gonna come back here but I always feel the need to after losing a bunch in a row. I need to learn the basics, the very basics. The shit most people learn in silver. I need to learn to not get supply blocked and to be able to macro while trying to move units. In the last games I played, I forgot to build drones/queens/overlords for over a minute cause I was dealing with 2 reapers in my base and trying to micro. I have no ability to multitask at all. How do I learn this? Scouting is also a big issue for me. You'd think someone who watches as much pro scene as me would know basically how to scout, but nope. I get caught off guard by literally every attack, and I always overdrone and have no units. How can I improve this? My mindset is also crap, but that's probably never gonna change. I rage and shit on myself hard after every loss. I tell my opponents how shit I am and how I will never get better. I don't know why I have to do this, but I feel like I'll break something if I don't get it out somehow. It's not losing, it's that I'm not improving. And that's why I need to get the basics down so well that I can actually feel improvment. I need to learn builds too, I currently for some retarded reason dont' learn them, it feels like I can't and I always forget them. This is 100% mental block I"m sure. Really though, should I just give up? I've only gotten worse at the game in the last few months, I used to be pushing high gold, now I am silver and can't get an honest win in that league even. Literally all you need to do is build units in silver and I still cant win. It's bad more my mental health, and I've broken too much shit from rage. What should I do? Do you want to get better? No? Quit. Yes? 1. Memorize your build orders, as far as you can go. Pick a mid game you like to use or practice, and use your opening to get as much stuff by time x. If you don't know the build order, Ask anyone here what mid game you want, and we can give you a good build. 2. When learning a new build order, practice it vs all match ups, don't care about winning or losing, care about perfecting the build you are trying to use. Soon it will be instinctive, and you wont need to think about it. Which means you can micro vs the reapers and NOT be supply blocked, or forget your gas timings, ect. 3. Snute once said there are two kinds of practice. One where you play to win, no matter what. The second is where you are practicing something specific, no matter what. The ladder is great for learning new builds and getting better in skill. I will frequently practice my zvp build vs all match ups when I am working on a new build. | ||
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
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LordYama
United States370 Posts
On April 22 2015 05:27 McMonroe22 wrote: I have had great success vs mech by doing very basic things that you might have heard before and maybe have tried but never had used the right way. I'm talking about the viper. I literally go roach hydra viper and non-stop attack the meching player. To get to this point, you need to get a fast 4 base full economy. 4 base gas and minerals with a 5th base for the gas. Make sure you have 10 or so roaches to defend potential hellion aggression while droning this greedily. The next most important thing with this is to take your overlords and drop creep on every base on the map! This way you know their exact base count and you further delay them from taking new ones. Also, against a passive mech player, your creep queens will be free to turn the whole map into creep! Once you have the 80-90 drone economy, start massing roach hydra with 3 vipers for your initial attack. (Build more if you can! I prefer 6 for the mass abducts needed late game.) Make sure you stay on top of upgrades and tech paths because you will be able to afford it (At least two evo chambers for ranged and carapace upgrades, if you want a third for melee go for it! Also, make sure you have at least 1 spire for later utility). During your initial attack, you should focus on denying their third base if you can with blinding clouds on their tanks. If they have vikings, just use abducts instead and start adding more and more vipers. Pulls are incredibly good with the recent range buff! Many players make the mistake of only using blinding cloud vs mech but it's much more cost efficient to use pulls because with the range, you can pick off free units one at a time and with vipers, you can pull lots of units! If the mech player does hellion or banshee harass, building 5 or so mutas with an overseer with overlord speed in conjunction with your static defense at your bases will be fairly easy to defend. As the game progresses, most terrans won't be able to hold on for long if you control your vipers efficiently. Often times, they will have a turret ring outside their tank line which requires you to blinding cloud the turrets and then you may need a couple pulls to get their units in range of yours. At this point, a tech switch would be good. 8 brood lords and 16 corruptors with 3-6 vipers and a zergling hydra or hydra ultra or roach hydra force will usually crack the terran if they have managed to live this long on 3-4 bases. You can do a risky mass muta switch off roach hydra viper if you want a coin-flippy quick end. Often times I've seen zergs straight up lose because of the mass muta transition, but sometimes you'll get the win if they invested a lot in tanks and not viking raven. If you have any questions please ask, I've used this strategy successfully vs many top master terrans and 2 gms. So, I have a decent understanding on how to play this style. Can you post any replays illustrating this kind of play? | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
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june4812622
United States20 Posts
On April 30 2015 05:59 FlyingBeer wrote: I switched to Zerg a couple weeks ago, and I like to incorporate early timing attacks into my build order. I've been going for a maxed roach-hydra 2-2 play in ZvP, but I'm wondering what sort of opening I should use to transition into that attack or something similar. I'm hoping for an aggressive opener that's useful against a wide variety of Protoss openings. I think I see gate-core-expand the most frequently lately. Any help is much appreciated, thanks. http://imbabuilds.com/hots-zerg/hots-zvp/zvp-hyuns-roach-hydra-viper-play/ | ||
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Psychonian
United States2322 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
i don't really know of any specific counter to 10p baneling with hatch first, you kind of just have to hope your opponent makes a bad move and then have really good countermicro. maybe someone better than me can post specific tips to that end. but honestly i say just lose your phobia of pool first. i did the same thing a while back and honestly i have a perfectly good time in zvz just going pool first 90% of the time | ||
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Psychonian
United States2322 Posts
On April 30 2015 08:40 brickrd wrote: pool first is not significantly behind hatch first. the reason pro zergs go hatch first is because of minor factors like creep spread, faster gas, better setup for mass queen if you're going gasless, the fact that their opponents are professionals who can defend aggression well, etc., and yes the very minor economic advantage. but i think your mindset is wrong if you're afraid of going up against hatch first with pool first on the ladder. it's not even really a problem much less a build order loss, it's more in the line of seeing your opponent took a third you can't punish and going "oh, well i need my third now as well" and the game proceeds from there i don't really know of any specific counter to 10p baneling with hatch first, you kind of just have to hope your opponent makes a bad move and then have really good countermicro. maybe someone better than me can post specific tips to that end. but honestly i say just lose your phobia of pool first. i did the same thing a while back and honestly i have a perfectly good time in zvz just going pool first 90% of the time what should i do? if someone could give me a good pool first build for zvz that would be great or i guess i could just look on imbabuilds | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On April 30 2015 07:48 june4812622 wrote: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-zerg/hots-zvp/zvp-hyuns-roach-hydra-viper-play/ That's a passive opening. I'm looking for an aggressive opening. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 30 2015 08:04 Psychonian wrote: How do I deal with 10pool baneling while going hatch first, say, on Vaani? Is this some kind of super easy counter that I dont know about? i get a spine but it doesnt help at all, it just gets run past, even with banelings. I feel like theres nothing I can do to counter this if I go hatch first, and I dont want to go pool first because then I'm significantly behind in eco than other zergs that do go hatch first. So is there a way to deal with 10p bane while going hatch first? any way at all? you want to split your drones, target his morphing banelings with drones/lings and get spines. Cancel your gas once you know it's 10pool bane and dump all your minerals into defense. You should win the game if you can defend with 8-9 drones left and your 2nd base not dead. Honestly the most important part is just the drone splits. You shouldn't worry too much about the lost mining time as long as you force him to spend as many banes as possible to kill your workers or you could just pool first, but that's for the weak  | ||
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