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On May 07 2015 21:58 rAyAAo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 14:36 BillTheNydusWorm wrote:
Hi, plat Zerg here. Ever since I saw Leenock and Jaedong do the fast ling ultra style against protoss at dreamhack shortly after hots release I have been in love with the build. Even though it got a weak midgame because you only got lings I simply adore the build. However I never manedged to replicate it myself. So are there any one here who made it work willing to share some key things about how to execute the playstyle?
Thanks in advance. Thats build is very nice especially on Vani Research map is so strong. if u already know the build well the playstyle is about to dont let toss attack and always WIN TIME with lings going around and even if u loose some , but while u do that make sure u macro HARD and win time for ultras, if toss is going allin 2 base make sure to have roach warren and make some roaches + lings...ultras should pop out at 13-14 min with 2 - 2 and 3 - 3 on way spam many hatcheries u need much gas and as i said try to win time with lings cos on midgame if he attacks u are dead Well i am sure there is anyone who could explain u better this build, i only know that
Infestor Ling w/ Spines for defense also works well during the midgame. Infestors work well with Ultras + Lings due to Fungal Growth and are more of a long time investment if you manage to save them unlike Roaches.
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high diamond kr here im struggling to beat late game toss. immo blink stalker sentry ht style. versed several masters players and on big maps like cactus valley i struggle to keep up with the toss and im always gas and minerals starved with a 4 base eco.
Follow up question how to you beat turtle mech atm? cant seem to find the right the answer atm i play muta into roaches into roach bane into roach hydra viper> bl corrupter and mass ultra but even if i get the right engagement and win battles the cost required for this style is really high.
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United States248 Posts
On May 08 2015 16:23 A_Scarecrow wrote:
high diamond kr here im struggling to beat late game toss. immo blink stalker sentry ht style. versed several masters players and on big maps like cactus valley i struggle to keep up with the toss and im always gas and minerals starved with a 4 base eco.
Follow up question how to you beat turtle mech atm? cant seem to find the right the answer atm i play muta into roaches into roach bane into roach hydra viper> bl corrupter and mass ultra but even if i get the right engagement and win battles the cost required for this style is really high.
You'll need to post replays, but the generic answer to that Protoss style is roach/hydra/vipers and then eventually transitioning into Hydra/BL/Viper/Infestor. Key things to take note of; are you pressuring protoss and trading out roaches for higher gas units like Immortals, sentries, etc; do you maintain a 1 base minimum lead on your protoss opponent or does he get even/ahead; are you scouting when you are supposed to?
For mech it really depends. Muta >roaches >RHV is pretty standard, as well as variations on that theme, so you'll definitely need to post replays about this to get more information. For what its worth, several pros have begun not going mutas until much later in game after getting upgrades to mutas rather than attempting to hit a timing with them. Post replays and people will be able to take a look.
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Hi to all.
I lost yesterday two alike games against protoss full air. The protoss took an early 3rd and turtled using lots of cannons. Eventually he took more bases and reached a maxed air void ray/carrier army which i couldnt break. What do you guys suggest is the best option? I tried to kill the 3rd with hydras (which i couldnt) and began falling slowly from there. What do u think is the best composition? Hydra/corruptor/ infestor? What would you do? Take lots of bases yourself and let the protoss expand? Commit heavily early? I am truly lost. Thanks for your help.
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On May 09 2015 04:42 therealkillemall wrote:
Hi to all.
I lost yesterday two alike games against protoss full air. The protoss took an early 3rd and turtled using lots of cannons. Eventually he took more bases and reached a maxed air void ray/carrier army which i couldnt break. What do you guys suggest is the best option? I tried to kill the 3rd with hydras (which i couldnt) and began falling slowly from there. What do u think is the best composition? Hydra/corruptor/ infestor? What would you do? Take lots of bases yourself and let the protoss expand? Commit heavily early? I am truly lost. Thanks for your help.
As soon as I sniff that they are turtling with two or more stargates making voids, I cease all activities other than getting a lair + spire and as much gas as possible as quickly as possible. Meanwhile I also get ling speed, melee +1 and bling speed.
The plan is as follows: You attack with your first batch of (12-14?) mutas, picking off sentries, stargate pylons, void rays. The protoss will now laugh (unless you manage to keep the stargates unpowered but that seldom happens) and produce phoenix. You will now, too, laugh, because the phoenix will be powerless against the ridiculous amounts of banelings that you will send into the enemy's base and by brute force kill his buildings (also you built a spore defense in your bases so as not to die to a ton of phoenix).
While this might seem strange and mb even counterintuitive, it is the only strat i've come up with that has consistently won me these total bullshit games.
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On May 09 2015 04:42 therealkillemall wrote:
Hi to all.
I lost yesterday two alike games against protoss full air. The protoss took an early 3rd and turtled using lots of cannons. Eventually he took more bases and reached a maxed air void ray/carrier army which i couldnt break. What do you guys suggest is the best option? I tried to kill the 3rd with hydras (which i couldnt) and began falling slowly from there. What do u think is the best composition? Hydra/corruptor/ infestor? What would you do? Take lots of bases yourself and let the protoss expand? Commit heavily early? I am truly lost. Thanks for your help.
If the Protoss makes only cannons and void rays, a properly executed hydra/ling timing should actually kill them or at least do crippling damage. Did you really attack the third with as many hydras as you could? A replay would be helpful.
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On May 09 2015 07:00 straycat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2015 04:42 therealkillemall wrote:
Hi to all.
I lost yesterday two alike games against protoss full air. The protoss took an early 3rd and turtled using lots of cannons. Eventually he took more bases and reached a maxed air void ray/carrier army which i couldnt break. What do you guys suggest is the best option? I tried to kill the 3rd with hydras (which i couldnt) and began falling slowly from there. What do u think is the best composition? Hydra/corruptor/ infestor? What would you do? Take lots of bases yourself and let the protoss expand? Commit heavily early? I am truly lost. Thanks for your help. As soon as I sniff that they are turtling with two or more stargates making voids, I cease all activities other than getting a lair + spire and as much gas as possible as quickly as possible. Meanwhile I also get ling speed, melee +1 and bling speed. The plan is as follows: You attack with your first batch of (12-14?) mutas, picking off sentries, stargate pylons, void rays. The protoss will now laugh (unless you manage to keep the stargates unpowered but that seldom happens) and produce phoenix. You will now, too, laugh, because the phoenix will be powerless against the ridiculous amounts of banelings that you will send into the enemy's base and by brute force kill his buildings (also you built a spore defense in your bases so as not to die to a ton of phoenix). While this might seem strange and mb even counterintuitive, it is the only strat i've come up with that has consistently won me these total bullshit games.
skytoss dropped out of the meta for a reason. zerg has a lot of tools to deal with it other than ridiculous "i dare you not to scout me" tech cheese. that's great if your solution works for you, but personally i'd recommend a more standard response involving queen/hydra/infestor. if protoss is just making cannons and carriers on 2/3base and surviving by never moving out you can take the entire map and tech to hive and viper/corruptor. if you stay active on the map and get greedy then protoss shouldn't really be able to just roll into new expansions without any threat of being hit by abducts and fungals and eventually repeated remaxes
i also agree with velvex that a greedy third and cannons off double or triple stargate shouldn't hold that easily against ling/hydra. if protoss actually just built so many cannons that the third was impregnable then the mineral investment alone would have to be staggering to the point of economic idiocy. consider that there are macro problems at work - if you let protoss or terran mech sit back on 3-4 bases without doing any damage or equally advancing your tech you're going to have problems because you're just constantly falling behind due to bad macro play
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Have other people been noticing a lack of Stargate openers? I'm thinking about doing some 2 base Muta play mostly because I'm tired of dealing with the San Gate and I'm terrible at engaging with RHV. NA Diamond btw.
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On May 09 2015 09:18 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Have other people been noticing a lack of Stargate openers? I'm thinking about doing some 2 base Muta play mostly because I'm tired of dealing with the San Gate and I'm terrible at engaging with RHV. NA Diamond btw.
I only saw one stargate recently but I also cheese almost every game vs toss so that might have something to do with it.
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On May 09 2015 09:18 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Have other people been noticing a lack of Stargate openers? I'm thinking about doing some 2 base Muta play mostly because I'm tired of dealing with the San Gate and I'm terrible at engaging with RHV. NA Diamond btw.
NA masters here, I've actually been seeing more Stargate openers recently. A lot of people seem to be catching on to either going 3 gate oracle or 1 gate oracle -> early 3rd +2 blink, otherwise mass phoenix or mass void rays out of 3 stargates. I do like 2 base muta with the spire proxied elsewhere as it gives me a lot of free wins against robo and muta-ling on big maps and vaani is a lot of fun (for the zerg). But any decent phoenix opener shits on it... it feels a bit gimmicky tbh
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On May 09 2015 13:30 sudete wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2015 09:18 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Have other people been noticing a lack of Stargate openers? I'm thinking about doing some 2 base Muta play mostly because I'm tired of dealing with the San Gate and I'm terrible at engaging with RHV. NA Diamond btw. NA masters here, I've actually been seeing more Stargate openers recently. A lot of people seem to be catching on to either going 3 gate oracle or 1 gate oracle -> early 3rd +2 blink, otherwise mass phoenix or mass void rays out of 3 stargates. I do like 2 base muta with the spire proxied elsewhere as it gives me a lot of free wins against robo and muta-ling on big maps and vaani is a lot of fun (for the zerg). But any decent phoenix opener shits on it... it feels a bit gimmicky tbh
Yeah never mind. Pretty much had Oracles in every ZvP last night after such a long time of no Stargate openers. Oh well. :\ Guess I gotta do Hydra Ling -> RHV again.
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United States248 Posts
On May 09 2015 13:30 sudete wrote:
1 gate oracle -> early 3rd +2 blink,
This was the bog standard in Korea for a long time. Its coming out of favor on KR and into favor on NA (not sure of EU) recently. The stuff I'm seeing more of from KR is gateway based stuff due to their different meta. 1gate Oracle > +2 blink 3base is super standard and strong. Pros have found the most success by either cheesing early game (proxy hatches!) or playing RHV styles.
2base muta is very dangerous in PvZ even if they aren't going stargate for what its worth. 2base builds require a lot of damage to be dealt for it to be worth it, and several other non-SG openers are incredibly strong vs 2base muta (Soultrain, Sangate, mantrain, etc). If you really want a muta build I'd recommend the old 3base ling roach > muta styles from WoL; those are much safer and not hugely reliant on direct damage unless you want them to be.
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I would love to send a replay but the rage at the end was real so I'd rather not.
I attacked the 3rd at 10 30 with, I think, a substantial amount of hydra-ling. Take into account that the map was vaani research and the 3rd was easier to defend than in other maps. I had the entire map for me but wasn't able to lock the protoss down in three bases due to bad pushes. It narrows down to know the best composition to have (since the resources are unlimited) and whether attack or wait until death max army. Should be a mix then between hydra-queen-infestor-corruptor-viper?
Thanks for all your advice.
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Since the swarm host nerf the style I've been having by far the most success with is a quick broodlord style. assuming playing vs the normal oracle into third or 3gate into third --> +2 blink styles here is how I play it out
upgrades: 1/1 (melee) into +2 melee & +1 attack
pre brood composition: hydra ling
hive timing: sometime before 11min
Random Tips
- Prior to holding off any blink attacks you'll only want to lightly saturate your 4th base (both gases and ~6 on minerals)
- Once you know that he's taking a third add an extra queen dedicated to creep spreading.
- No phoenix --> Spread ovies out for warp prism.
- Constantly be scouting his base with an overseer to see how dedicated of a blink attack is going to be coming.
- Once you have broods out continue scouting with overseer for tempest transition, if they aren't making tempests (or void rays i guess) you don't need to attack because you are making a "better" composition
- If the protoss isn't going to go fully all in with their main blink attack, they usually throw down a 4th as they are moving out. It's always good to have a group of lings out on the map for counter attacking as they make that push.
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United States248 Posts
On May 10 2015 10:50 Moosegills wrote:
Since the swarm host nerf the style I've been having by far the most success with is a quick broodlord style. assuming playing vs the normal oracle into third or 3gate into third --> +2 blink styles here is how I play it out
upgrades: 1/1 (melee) into +2 melee & +1 attack
pre brood composition: hydra ling
hive timing: sometime before 11min
Random Tips
- Prior to holding off any blink attacks you'll only want to lightly saturate your 4th base (both gases and ~6 on minerals)
- Once you know that he's taking a third add an extra queen dedicated to creep spreading.
- No phoenix --> Spread ovies out for warp prism.
- Constantly be scouting his base with an overseer to see how dedicated of a blink attack is going to be coming.
- Once you have broods out continue scouting with overseer for tempest transition, if they aren't making tempests (or void rays i guess) you don't need to attack because you are making a "better" composition
- If the protoss isn't going to go fully all in with their main blink attack, they usually throw down a 4th as they are moving out. It's always good to have a group of lings out on the map for counter attacking as they make that push.
I'm curious as to what you're doing for holding Zealot based early aggression with a 1/1 melee style. In the past some pros have been making safety roach warrens if their scout is denied or they scout a protoss light on gasses, but still recently a lot of pros take substantial damage with 1/1 melee vs San-esque bullshit. What adaptions do you make to handle that kind of thing with your style?
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On May 10 2015 10:50 Moosegills wrote:
Since the swarm host nerf the style I've been having by far the most success with is a quick broodlord style. assuming playing vs the normal oracle into third or 3gate into third --> +2 blink styles here is how I play it out
Do you have any comments on Sacsri vs Patience G1 on Vaani? Sacsri goes for a very similar style, ling/roach into BL with melee upgrades, but then Patience just maxes out on stalker/colossus with some templar and rolls Sacsri. I didn't see any real mistakes from Sacsri in this game, he controlled well, was patient with his BL, had a pretty good eco, tried to take good engagements, etc. but it just didn't matter when it came down to the engagement and Patience just killed him. It made BL look like a pretty bad/unreliable option.
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Ok, super super frustrated but how in the fucking hell do you stop a Sentry/Immortal push on Cactus Valley? Especially on any other spawn besides cross spawn this build just seems totally imbalanced due to the map architecture .
I mean I don't do well in general on that map especially vs. mech but seriously at a loss regarding fast force field centered pushes, can't defend the third without going all the way around, seriously the map lay out seems to just scream force fields.
I really tried to post this with as little rage as humanly possible but what can you do barring a perfect engagement/idiot Protoss player who is just completely not paying attention.
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On May 11 2015 01:16 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 10:50 Moosegills wrote:
Since the swarm host nerf the style I've been having by far the most success with is a quick broodlord style. assuming playing vs the normal oracle into third or 3gate into third --> +2 blink styles here is how I play it out
Do you have any comments on Sacsri vs Patience G1 on Vaani? Sacsri goes for a very similar style, ling/roach into BL with melee upgrades, but then Patience just maxes out on stalker/colossus with some templar and rolls Sacsri. I didn't see any real mistakes from Sacsri in this game, he controlled well, was patient with his BL, had a pretty good eco, tried to take good engagements, etc. but it just didn't matter when it came down to the engagement and Patience just killed him. It made BL look like a pretty bad/unreliable option.
Firstly he only had 8 broodlords to start with, in my opinion he should've scouted for any sg tech (which wasn't coming) and just keep on making more brood lords, there was no reason for him to attack. Also in his attempt to kite back and make a retreat after killing the nexus, he lost 3 broods making it so he only had 5 total when the "real" engagement started. Combine that with his roaches being as clumped as possible its no surprise a protoss army with that many storms was able to beat his army.
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On May 10 2015 10:50 Moosegills wrote:
Since the swarm host nerf the style I've been having by far the most success with is a quick broodlord style. assuming playing vs the normal oracle into third or 3gate into third --> +2 blink styles here is how I play it out
upgrades: 1/1 (melee) into +2 melee & +1 attack
pre brood composition: hydra ling
hive timing: sometime before 11min
Random Tips
- Prior to holding off any blink attacks you'll only want to lightly saturate your 4th base (both gases and ~6 on minerals)
- Once you know that he's taking a third add an extra queen dedicated to creep spreading.
- No phoenix --> Spread ovies out for warp prism.
- Constantly be scouting his base with an overseer to see how dedicated of a blink attack is going to be coming.
- Once you have broods out continue scouting with overseer for tempest transition, if they aren't making tempests (or void rays i guess) you don't need to attack because you are making a "better" composition
- If the protoss isn't going to go fully all in with their main blink attack, they usually throw down a 4th as they are moving out. It's always good to have a group of lings out on the map for counter attacking as they make that push.
Do you throw down a Roach Warren to hold down early all-ins? If so, do you sometimes dedicate to the Missile route with RHV instead?
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On May 11 2015 09:09 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 10:50 Moosegills wrote:
Since the swarm host nerf the style I've been having by far the most success with is a quick broodlord style. assuming playing vs the normal oracle into third or 3gate into third --> +2 blink styles here is how I play it out
upgrades: 1/1 (melee) into +2 melee & +1 attack
pre brood composition: hydra ling
hive timing: sometime before 11min
Random Tips
- Prior to holding off any blink attacks you'll only want to lightly saturate your 4th base (both gases and ~6 on minerals)
- Once you know that he's taking a third add an extra queen dedicated to creep spreading.
- No phoenix --> Spread ovies out for warp prism.
- Constantly be scouting his base with an overseer to see how dedicated of a blink attack is going to be coming.
- Once you have broods out continue scouting with overseer for tempest transition, if they aren't making tempests (or void rays i guess) you don't need to attack because you are making a "better" composition
- If the protoss isn't going to go fully all in with their main blink attack, they usually throw down a 4th as they are moving out. It's always good to have a group of lings out on the map for counter attacking as they make that push. Do you throw down a Roach Warren to hold down early all-ins? If so, do you sometimes dedicate to the Missile route with RHV instead?
Ya still use roaches to hold early all ins - all that stuff I wrote above just applies when you either see a protoss third starting or identify its going to be a third base (only see 3 gate forge in his base etc). My reasoning that I've been avoiding RHV --> broods or RHV in general is from my experience, RHV fights either go REALLY well or REALLY bad and you win/lose the game depending on the spellcasting. With that in mind imo doesn't really matter what tech you follow up RHV with because the game is basically going to end there with the first timing, and it feels very all in.
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EPT
