On May 19 2015 14:05 Tachion wrote: What is a half decent all-in to do when you spot a Terran going mech? I am so bored to tears playing against turtle mech that I'd rather it just end quickly one way or another.
Two base muta with a lair between 5:00 to 6:00 depending on their opening and the map. While you harass him drone up your 3rd just a little (50-55 drones) and hit with a +1 speedroach timing at around 150 supply. I think this works well against regular mech openings i.e. hellion-banshee, blue flame hellion, hellbat-medivac-marine. However if they turtle straight away with tanks, turrets and mines its probably better to skip the mutas, drone up your 3rd very quickly and start massing roaches so he never can take his 3rd. Meanwhile you slowly tech to vipers. Thats just in theory because i haven't played against that style a lot and often times you are allready commited to another build once you identify it's full turtle mech.
On May 19 2015 18:14 sickless11 wrote: how do you deal with mass reapers?
Speedlings. If they're really committing to it, getting Roaches is never a bad idea.
yeah, speedlings are ok at start, but when there are 5+ reapers they can kite them easily, in the meantime you cant get droning and putting a roach warren is pretty too much money at that stage, and even after you get them, you cant move out
On May 19 2015 18:14 sickless11 wrote: how do you deal with mass reapers?
Speedlings. If they're really committing to it, getting Roaches is never a bad idea.
yeah, speedlings are ok at start, but when there are 5+ reapers they can kite them easily, in the meantime you cant get droning and putting a roach warren is pretty too much money at that stage, and even after you get them, you cant move out
Sorry about the vapid response. The best response if you're SURE they're going mass Reapers is a Spine at each base, constant Queens, and try to make as many Drones as possible. Of course make Lings if necessary as buffer although you want to be making Drones. If they're still making Reapers, grab a Roach Warren + 2 gas and start making Roach Ling. Make sure your Overlord spread is good and try to get creep between your bases.
On May 19 2015 18:14 sickless11 wrote: how do you deal with mass reapers?
Speedlings. If they're really committing to it, getting Roaches is never a bad idea.
yeah, speedlings are ok at start, but when there are 5+ reapers they can kite them easily, in the meantime you cant get droning and putting a roach warren is pretty too much money at that stage, and even after you get them, you cant move out
Sorry about the vapid response. The best response if you're SURE they're going mass Reapers is a Spine at each base, constant Queens, and try to make as many Drones as possible. Of course make Lings if necessary as buffer although you want to be making Drones. If they're still making Reapers, grab a Roach Warren + 2 gas and start making Roach Ling. Make sure your Overlord spread is good and try to get creep between your bases.
Agreed. Not sure why'd you would get roaches vs reaper unless you open gasless (in which case mass up on queen and drop a rw. If you get speed out without losing too much economy you're golden. The reapers lose value extremely fast as you enter mid game. There is no such thing as a 2 medi reaper push xD
The key is to make as few lings as possible till ling speed done. So to accomplish this make queens. Spine in the mineral line sounds good, but maybe try only 1. Scouting the follow up is key of course.
On May 19 2015 18:14 sickless11 wrote: how do you deal with mass reapers?
Speedlings. If they're really committing to it, getting Roaches is never a bad idea.
yeah, speedlings are ok at start, but when there are 5+ reapers they can kite them easily, in the meantime you cant get droning and putting a roach warren is pretty too much money at that stage, and even after you get them, you cant move out
Sorry about the vapid response. The best response if you're SURE they're going mass Reapers is a Spine at each base, constant Queens, and try to make as many Drones as possible. Of course make Lings if necessary as buffer although you want to be making Drones. If they're still making Reapers, grab a Roach Warren + 2 gas and start making Roach Ling. Make sure your Overlord spread is good and try to get creep between your bases.
Agreed. Not sure why'd you would get roaches vs reaper unless you open gasless (in which case mass up on queen and drop a rw. If you get speed out without losing too much economy you're golden. The reapers lose value extremely fast as you enter mid game. There is no such thing as a 2 medi reaper push xD
The key is to make as few lings as possible till ling speed done. So to accomplish this make queens. Spine in the mineral line sounds good, but maybe try only 1. Scouting the follow up is key of course.
I actually find getting Roaches great even with a gas opening if they're committing to a LOT of Reapers. Roaches are able to tank, kill Reapers in a few shots, and are good against the follow up Hellions if the Terran goes for them. Since Reapers also cost some gas, the Terran'll be a bit strapped to get Tanks or Marauders out. They're also just great safety units to help you grab that 3rd base more reliably if you play more defensively.
So.. are those "standard builds" in the OP actually any good anymore? In ZvT ive been trying to perfect that snute build and i keep getting wrecked by people who standardly go reapers/reactor hellions. When i try to take the 3rd at 5:50 they have 4 hellions and 5 reapers and i cant break that with the two queens i have spreading creep and the 4 slow lings the build says to have. I thought they were supposed to be safe builds? Sorry im just frustrated
On May 21 2015 12:26 Palmbay wrote: So.. are those "standard builds" in the OP actually any good anymore? In ZvT ive been trying to perfect that snute build and i keep getting wrecked by people who standardly go reapers/reactor hellions. When i try to take the 3rd at 5:50 they have 4 hellions and 5 reapers and i cant break that with the two queens i have spreading creep and the 4 slow lings the build says to have. I thought they were supposed to be safe builds? Sorry im just frustrated
Could you post a replay of the game you are talking about. For a standard 3 base opener the build I do in the replay is good vs non hellbat/medivac attacks
On May 21 2015 12:26 Palmbay wrote: So.. are those "standard builds" in the OP actually any good anymore? In ZvT ive been trying to perfect that snute build and i keep getting wrecked by people who standardly go reapers/reactor hellions. When i try to take the 3rd at 5:50 they have 4 hellions and 5 reapers and i cant break that with the two queens i have spreading creep and the 4 slow lings the build says to have. I thought they were supposed to be safe builds? Sorry im just frustrated
Could you post a replay of the game you are talking about. For a standard 3 base opener the build I do in the replay is good vs non hellbat/medivac attacks
For him to have 4 helions and 5 reapers at 3rd by 5:50 I think that has be Rax > fac > CC instead of rax > cc > fac? Standard reaper > CC openers have fac completing 'round 5:20, maybe earlier if there's some corner cutting, so there's not enough time for 4 helion/5reaper to show up at 5:50.
As for the OP itself, the general build ideas in all of the matchups are fine, but the exact builds aren't standard in the current meta game. They do the job just fine. You *should* check out MG's replay for an up to date variant, but it sounds like the build your opponent is doing is whats throwing you off.
Can someone give me some benchmarks for macro ZvT(Bio) games: I open with 4 queens, double gas @~5:00-5:30(not sure yet when exactly I should take double gas) When to take the third? When to take the forth? When to go to hive?
On May 21 2015 12:26 Palmbay wrote: So.. are those "standard builds" in the OP actually any good anymore? In ZvT ive been trying to perfect that snute build and i keep getting wrecked by people who standardly go reapers/reactor hellions. When i try to take the 3rd at 5:50 they have 4 hellions and 5 reapers and i cant break that with the two queens i have spreading creep and the 4 slow lings the build says to have. I thought they were supposed to be safe builds? Sorry im just frustrated
Could you post a replay of the game you are talking about. For a standard 3 base opener the build I do in the replay is good vs non hellbat/medivac attacks
For him to have 4 helions and 5 reapers at 3rd by 5:50 I think that has be Rax > fac > CC instead of rax > cc > fac? Standard reaper > CC openers have fac completing 'round 5:20, maybe earlier if there's some corner cutting, so there's not enough time for 4 helion/5reaper to show up at 5:50.
As for the OP itself, the general build ideas in all of the matchups are fine, but the exact builds aren't standard in the current meta game. They do the job just fine. You *should* check out MG's replay for an up to date variant, but it sounds like the build your opponent is doing is whats throwing you off.
That even with the most corner cutting the maximum you get is 1 reaper and 4 hellions at 6 minutes (2 hellions still at home). It doesn't matter if you go factory before expand because you are limited by gas. Palmbay either didn't write the correct timing or he forgot to mention that the terran went for some weird 1 base opener with gas first or double gas both of which dont require the zerg to expand so fast. The gasless 4 queen build is kind of outdated since reapers can damage you more easily when you dont have speed and deny your 3rd base. If you want to learn a standard build that works on every map i would suggest this: The gasless opener can work on some maps for example on 4 player maps or maps where there is only one entrance for reapers you can also open pool first and deflect his first reaper with the queen and sneak 2 zerglings around to pull his reapers back. I have been using some varriations of gasless builds in master league but you need to be able to change up you build if they put heavy pressure with reaper-hellion. I haven't seen it in proffessional play since a long time but its certainly not a bad build for ladder especially if you dont want to open the same way every zvt.
On May 21 2015 22:48 Archiatrus wrote: Can someone give me some benchmarks for macro ZvT(Bio) games: I open with 4 queens, double gas @~5:00-5:30(not sure yet when exactly I should take double gas) When to take the third? When to take the forth? When to go to hive?
See above, if you want consistant practice use a 1 gas, 3 queen opener. With 4 queens double gas can be taken as early as 4:30, between 4:50 and 5:00 should be the standard. Third base can go down at 6 minutes if the terran allows it, if not you should make an evo wall and keep droning untill speed is about to finish, take your 3rd around 7 minutes. If the terran player is on 3 bases you should take your 4th once you reach 3 base saturation with 6 gasses, depending on how good your macro is and if you took any damage beforehand that is between 9:00 and 10:00 minutes. The timing of your hive depends on how the game goes, usually you dont want to tech to hive before you have 8 gasses and around 75-80 drones. For a lower level player it might be ok to go for hive faster since you will have problems spending your money anyways and ultras are, unlike your lair tech units, insanely larvae efficient.
Double gas should only be taken at 6:30-7:00 depending on personal preference not 4:30 if you're opening with the standard 3 hatch ZvT build. This is around when you saturate your bases with mineral mining drones (~6:30) or after you make a few Lings/Queens (~7:00).
ok well I guess what happened was not in fact a standard terran build. Sorry it just happened to me on ladder 3 ZvTs in a row. When you're in diamond and you see an expansion building and that constantly at 6 minutes you tend to think its the standard build.
My point still stands though. Can we please have the standard build openings updated? or more added? i used to play WoL and just started playing HotS before legacy and ive been trying to get that gasless to work which is really hasn't in total. As a new player I imagine like others it's alot harder to traverse the 258 pages to find all this information instead of having a lot of the most basic stuff available at the front page.
I realize im talking as if im entitled to the information but just saying for your help in making guides (which I guess this isn't even technically one...ahh w/e its been a rough two days lol)
On May 21 2015 12:26 Palmbay wrote: So.. are those "standard builds" in the OP actually any good anymore? In ZvT ive been trying to perfect that snute build and i keep getting wrecked by people who standardly go reapers/reactor hellions. When i try to take the 3rd at 5:50 they have 4 hellions and 5 reapers and i cant break that with the two queens i have spreading creep and the 4 slow lings the build says to have. I thought they were supposed to be safe builds? Sorry im just frustrated
Could you post a replay of the game you are talking about. For a standard 3 base opener the build I do in the replay is good vs non hellbat/medivac attacks
For him to have 4 helions and 5 reapers at 3rd by 5:50 I think that has be Rax > fac > CC instead of rax > cc > fac? Standard reaper > CC openers have fac completing 'round 5:20, maybe earlier if there's some corner cutting, so there's not enough time for 4 helion/5reaper to show up at 5:50.
As for the OP itself, the general build ideas in all of the matchups are fine, but the exact builds aren't standard in the current meta game. They do the job just fine. You *should* check out MG's replay for an up to date variant, but it sounds like the build your opponent is doing is whats throwing you off.
That even with the most corner cutting the maximum you get is 1 reaper and 4 hellions at 6 minutes (2 hellions still at home). It doesn't matter if you go factory before expand because you are limited by gas. Palmbay either didn't write the correct timing or he forgot to mention that the terran went for some weird 1 base opener with gas first or double gas both of which dont require the zerg to expand so fast. The gasless 4 queen build is kind of outdated since reapers can damage you more easily when you dont have speed and deny your 3rd base. If you want to learn a standard build that works on every map i would suggest this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgnaGLDHnc8 The gasless opener can work on some maps for example on 4 player maps or maps where there is only one entrance for reapers you can also open pool first and deflect his first reaper with the queen and sneak 2 zerglings around to pull his reapers back. I have been using some varriations of gasless builds in master league but you need to be able to change up you build if they put heavy pressure with reaper-hellion. I haven't seen it in proffessional play since a long time but its certainly not a bad build for ladder especially if you dont want to open the same way every zvt.
On May 21 2015 22:48 Archiatrus wrote: Can someone give me some benchmarks for macro ZvT(Bio) games: I open with 4 queens, double gas @~5:00-5:30(not sure yet when exactly I should take double gas) When to take the third? When to take the forth? When to go to hive?
See above, if you want consistant practice use a 1 gas, 3 queen opener. With 4 queens double gas can be taken as early as 4:30, between 4:50 and 5:00 should be the standard. Third base can go down at 6 minutes if the terran allows it, if not you should make an evo wall and keep droning untill speed is about to finish, take your 3rd around 7 minutes. If the terran player is on 3 bases you should take your 4th once you reach 3 base saturation with 6 gasses, depending on how good your macro is and if you took any damage beforehand that is between 9:00 and 10:00 minutes. The timing of your hive depends on how the game goes, usually you dont want to tech to hive before you have 8 gasses and around 75-80 drones. For a lower level player it might be ok to go for hive faster since you will have problems spending your money anyways and ultras are, unlike your lair tech units, insanely larvae efficient.
I've been exclusively playing the 4 queen gasless in zvt. 4:30 gas is wayyyy too early. It really depends on what you want to accomplish with your build. 5:30 is a good time, though you can push it back later if you plan on making a queen + spine defense. I like to get the rw at 5:30 with my gases so I can get 2 roaches out by 7:00 to safely take my third. Sometimes you can force it down without roaches, but you really shouldn't be able to if they opened reaper/helions.
Some good benchmarks are 50 drones by 8 min, 66 by 10 min.
EPT
Carry on.
Fighting against 3/3 bio without Ultras and 2/2 *brr* 
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