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On May 10 2015 23:41 Jowj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 10:50 Moosegills wrote:
Since the swarm host nerf the style I've been having by far the most success with is a quick broodlord style. assuming playing vs the normal oracle into third or 3gate into third --> +2 blink styles here is how I play it out
upgrades: 1/1 (melee) into +2 melee & +1 attack
pre brood composition: hydra ling
hive timing: sometime before 11min
Random Tips
- Prior to holding off any blink attacks you'll only want to lightly saturate your 4th base (both gases and ~6 on minerals)
- Once you know that he's taking a third add an extra queen dedicated to creep spreading.
- No phoenix --> Spread ovies out for warp prism.
- Constantly be scouting his base with an overseer to see how dedicated of a blink attack is going to be coming.
- Once you have broods out continue scouting with overseer for tempest transition, if they aren't making tempests (or void rays i guess) you don't need to attack because you are making a "better" composition
- If the protoss isn't going to go fully all in with their main blink attack, they usually throw down a 4th as they are moving out. It's always good to have a group of lings out on the map for counter attacking as they make that push. I'm curious as to what you're doing for holding Zealot based early aggression with a 1/1 melee style. In the past some pros have been making safety roach warrens if their scout is denied or they scout a protoss light on gasses, but still recently a lot of pros take substantial damage with 1/1 melee vs San-esque bullshit. What adaptions do you make to handle that kind of thing with your style?
Instead of blindly going into 1/1, I only throw down the first evo chambers once I scout a 3rd base build. So it's not a super early 1/1 like some people try to do, just a 1/1 that would be done in time for the first big blink shoves.
So all the standard defensive procedures still apply: roaches for gateway all ins, hydras for immortal all ins etc. Just immediately going into evos once a "macro" build is identified.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
So I saw True, i think, going for a heavy ling style in ZvP. I was wondering what people knew about this style.
how my upgrade decisions are made.
when i should give up on this and build other tech etc.
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United States248 Posts
KelsierSC, check out the previous few posts by Moosegills in this thread, he details what triggers him going into this style/how to play safe before it, it should help you out.
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Still getting back into SC2 after only playing WOL.
I've been having a lot of trouble with widow mines in ZvT. What's the most efficient way of dealing with them using muta/ling/baneling? (since that seems to still be the best comp for the matchup)
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On May 14 2015 01:02 smuckers26 wrote:
Still getting back into SC2 after only playing WOL.
I've been having a lot of trouble with widow mines in ZvT. What's the most efficient way of dealing with them using muta/ling/baneling? (since that seems to still be the best comp for the matchup)
Separate small groups of lings and banelings and send them into the mine field. Lings eat up marine shots while banelings close in on the mines. You need three banelings to kill a mine or, ideally, several that are too close to each other. Repeat this until most mines are likely destroyed or on cooldown, and then engage with all your army.
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On May 14 2015 01:02 smuckers26 wrote:
Still getting back into SC2 after only playing WOL.
I've been having a lot of trouble with widow mines in ZvT. What's the most efficient way of dealing with them using muta/ling/baneling? (since that seems to still be the best comp for the matchup)
To add to what velvex said, when he gets on the edge of your creep, use small clumps of ling/bane continuously (3-4 banes, 5-6 lings per wave), don't send your whole army unless you're SURE he's expended all his mine shots. Behind this just keep making ling/bane while teching/macroing/defending drops.
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Norway6070 Posts
On May 14 2015 01:02 smuckers26 wrote:
Still getting back into SC2 after only playing WOL.
I've been having a lot of trouble with widow mines in ZvT. What's the most efficient way of dealing with them using muta/ling/baneling? (since that seems to still be the best comp for the matchup)
and expanding even more, creep spread has never ever been more important. It's probably one of the most important things you can do as Zerg, you dont ever want to engage off creep unless you're confident you have a lead or have a very good flank going
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Since the swarmhost nerf/change, I am struggling a lot to deal with Protoss psionic storms. A Protoss player I often play with brings about 6 - 8 high templars with a few collosi and sentry/immortal/stalker to support them (ie the Protoss Deathball). No matter how much I split or pull back, there seems to always be another storm to come down, eventually destroying my roach/hydra/ultralisk/viper army. I also cannot simply allow the roaches and hydralisks to stay still and take the storms either because they will obviously be destroyed. What should I do?
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On May 14 2015 18:54 LComteVarauG wrote:
Since the swarmhost nerf/change, I am struggling a lot to deal with Protoss psionic storms. A Protoss player I often play with brings about 6 - 8 high templars with a few collosi and sentry/immortal/stalker to support them (ie the Protoss Deathball). No matter how much I split or pull back, there seems to always be another storm to come down, eventually destroying my roach/hydra/ultralisk/viper army. I also cannot simply allow the roaches and hydralisks to stay still and take the storms either because they will obviously be destroyed. What should I do?
Get the Blinding Clouds on his army, make sure you are in a huge concave, remove Roaches in favor of Queens/Infestors/Vipers for additional support.
It's hard, but doable!
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Hi, a plat zerg here. I struggle in ZvZ vs muta play when going roach hydra. Every game the muta player just keeps denying my third because he got better mobility which of course results in that he has a better economy. Every time I try to attack with my roach hydra i get decimated by his banes and zerglings and then his mutas swoop in to finnish the job. I feel forced to get muta when my opponent even though I despise going muta in ZvZ. anyone got advice when playing roach hydra vs muta?
Thanks in advance.
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On May 15 2015 06:57 BillTheNydusWorm wrote:
Hi, a plat zerg here. I struggle in ZvZ vs muta play when going roach hydra. Every game the muta player just keeps denying my third because he got better mobility which of course results in that he has a better economy. Every time I try to attack with my roach hydra i get decimated by his banes and zerglings and then his mutas swoop in to finnish the job. I feel forced to get muta when my opponent even though I despise going muta in ZvZ. anyone got advice when playing roach hydra vs muta?
Thanks in advance.
The key when going roaches vs a muta player is to establish that 3rd. The way to generally do this is to do a timing before mutas and expand behind it, dropping spores ASAP (if you have lair, you can use OL's to drop creep so you can get spores up faster). In general vs a muta player I try to get a relatively fast lair so I can start pumping hydras while establishing a 3base economy. You may need to spread out roaches to deal with runbys, but if you have spores established at your 3rd you should be able to hold it while waiting for hydras to come out.
If you can get 3 bases up and running, you can max out on roach/hydra, maybe with some infestor, and amove. Vs banelings, channel your inner terran and split your hydras, and try not to get flanked (if your roaches are in front and you do minimal splitting, banelings won't do much).
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Hey guys, with WCS releasing replays, we have a lot of tools to improve in our hands. What do you think would be the best way to improve a match-up using those? Are there any ressources about how to learn effictively from pro replays?
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Norway6070 Posts
On May 15 2015 06:57 BillTheNydusWorm wrote:
Hi, a plat zerg here. I struggle in ZvZ vs muta play when going roach hydra. Every game the muta player just keeps denying my third because he got better mobility which of course results in that he has a better economy. Every time I try to attack with my roach hydra i get decimated by his banes and zerglings and then his mutas swoop in to finnish the job. I feel forced to get muta when my opponent even though I despise going muta in ZvZ. anyone got advice when playing roach hydra vs muta?
Thanks in advance.
Yeah you definitely want to secure a 3rd as fast as possible, and counter attacking is a great way to do this. After you have secured a 3rd, you want to max out on roach hydra infestor, with maybe 3-4 infestors. The infestors are there in case you manage to chain fungal the mutas before you move out, or to fungal his banelings. If he didnt go banelings you obviously just fungal away whatever ground army he has. and you probably want to scout for a hive in case he tries to go ultralisk, in which case you want to try to hit a timing before he gets those.
Worst case scenario and you dont manage to get a 3rd, just sitting on 2 bases making roach hydra infestor and going all in on one maxed army can even work.
Alternatively, you can make queens in addition to your 2 base roach/hydra and and try to get a nydus down on his side of the map, this might hit before he's got a lot of banelings
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hmm, is there a different way to play ZvT? LBM is fun and all, but sometimes I'd like to be able to do something else (and something different than hoping they mess up badly and something mostly based on your own skill unlike r/h). I know there used to be a style that PiG made a guide about back in WoL involving fast burrow and infestors, and while it's obviously not optimal and probably kinda bad, is there still something like that?
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You can play ling, bane, roach, (corruptor) its easier for frontal engagements but you will need to have good map awereness, creepspread to defend drops. I have seen snute use this composition a while ago without spire, he didnt take 6 gases right away which enabled him to take new bases faster and have a very high mineral income in the midgame with relativly low drone count. It's definitly inferioir to muta, ling, bane but if you execute it well it can work up to a relativly high level.
If thats not different enaugh stephano has played ling only(nothing lese at all) with heavy upgrades, taking not more than 2-3 gasses (if i remember correctly) going up to 5+ bases very fast and eventually taking his gasses very late into the game to switch into ultras. It's a nice style to mix in to practice injects and taking bases.
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On May 18 2015 04:19 zerge wrote:If thats not different enaugh stephano has played ling only(nothing lese at all) with heavy upgrades, taking not more than 2-3 gasses (if i remember correctly) going up to 5+ bases very fast and eventually taking his gasses very late into the game to switch into ultras. It's a nice style to mix in to practice injects and taking bases.
if this is the same style i'm thinking of then starbuck used it a year ago against MMA in acer teamstory and pretty much had MMA beaten down until the game went weird and turned into a MechvZ where he eventually lost to superior macro play. you basically get hive, 2/2 melee, adrenal and then straight into ultra tech and ultras+push before investing 500/500 into 3/3 melee. i believe starbuck made a small number of infestors as well before ultras, probably to slow frontal pushes? he made it look very strong! could be a neat build to pick up for lotv as well considering ultras are incredibly strong in beta right now
also if you're looking for different then roach/queen nydus is very viable on ladder. even though it's designed as an in-base mech hardcounter allin, you can make it work against bio even putting the nydus out front. i'm not going to call it "good" but you're looking for "different" not "good" so  transfusing your roaches is pretty good practice for mouse accuracy! and once in a while you get to taste the sweet terran tears of someone who thinks banshee openers are cheeseproof
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On May 18 2015 09:51 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2015 04:19 zerge wrote:If thats not different enaugh stephano has played ling only(nothing lese at all) with heavy upgrades, taking not more than 2-3 gasses (if i remember correctly) going up to 5+ bases very fast and eventually taking his gasses very late into the game to switch into ultras. It's a nice style to mix in to practice injects and taking bases. if this is the same style i'm thinking of then starbuck used it a year ago against MMA in acer teamstory and pretty much had MMA beaten down until the game went weird and turned into a MechvZ where he eventually lost to superior macro play. you basically get hive, 2/2 melee, adrenal and then straight into ultra tech and ultras+push before investing 500/500 into 3/3 melee. i believe starbuck made a small number of infestors as well before ultras, probably to slow frontal pushes? he made it look very strong! could be a neat build to pick up for lotv as well considering ultras are incredibly strong in beta right now also if you're looking for different then roach/queen nydus is very viable on ladder. even though it's designed as an in-base mech hardcounter allin, you can make it work against bio even putting the nydus out front. i'm not going to call it "good" but you're looking for "different" not "good" so transfusing your roaches is pretty good practice for mouse accuracy! and once in a while you get to taste the sweet terran tears of someone who thinks banshee openers are cheeseproof
Does anyone have a rough bo or some pro vod of that roach/queen nydus vs terran? Seems like a fun strat to do.
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http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Base_Nydus_(vs._Terran)
Pretty old build but i dont think anything of relevance for this strategy has changed since then. Depending on your level of play you could try to disguise it more like adding in an evo chamber or a 3rd base because 2 base lair with only roach warren is very obvious and terrans have better scouting with reaper.
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On May 18 2015 09:51 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2015 04:19 zerge wrote:If thats not different enaugh stephano has played ling only(nothing lese at all) with heavy upgrades, taking not more than 2-3 gasses (if i remember correctly) going up to 5+ bases very fast and eventually taking his gasses very late into the game to switch into ultras. It's a nice style to mix in to practice injects and taking bases. if this is the same style i'm thinking of then starbuck used it a year ago against MMA in acer teamstory and pretty much had MMA beaten down until the game went weird and turned into a MechvZ where he eventually lost to superior macro play. you basically get hive, 2/2 melee, adrenal and then straight into ultra tech and ultras+push before investing 500/500 into 3/3 melee. i believe starbuck made a small number of infestors as well before ultras, probably to slow frontal pushes? he made it look very strong! could be a neat build to pick up for lotv as well considering ultras are incredibly strong in beta right now also if you're looking for different then roach/queen nydus is very viable on ladder. even though it's designed as an in-base mech hardcounter allin, you can make it work against bio even putting the nydus out front. i'm not going to call it "good" but you're looking for "different" not "good" so transfusing your roaches is pretty good practice for mouse accuracy! and once in a while you get to taste the sweet terran tears of someone who thinks banshee openers are cheeseproof
I like doing a 2 base roach drop with nydus, so I know a bit about those builds :D
I was thinking more about macro styles, and the ling-heavy one seems very interesting
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What is a half decent all-in to do when you spot a Terran going mech? I am so bored to tears playing against turtle mech that I'd rather it just end quickly one way or another.
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EPT
