On May 21 2015 12:26 Palmbay wrote: So.. are those "standard builds" in the OP actually any good anymore? In ZvT ive been trying to perfect that snute build and i keep getting wrecked by people who standardly go reapers/reactor hellions. When i try to take the 3rd at 5:50 they have 4 hellions and 5 reapers and i cant break that with the two queens i have spreading creep and the 4 slow lings the build says to have. I thought they were supposed to be safe builds? Sorry im just frustrated
Could you post a replay of the game you are talking about. For a standard 3 base opener the build I do in the replay is good vs non hellbat/medivac attacks
For him to have 4 helions and 5 reapers at 3rd by 5:50 I think that has be Rax > fac > CC instead of rax > cc > fac? Standard reaper > CC openers have fac completing 'round 5:20, maybe earlier if there's some corner cutting, so there's not enough time for 4 helion/5reaper to show up at 5:50.
As for the OP itself, the general build ideas in all of the matchups are fine, but the exact builds aren't standard in the current meta game. They do the job just fine. You *should* check out MG's replay for an up to date variant, but it sounds like the build your opponent is doing is whats throwing you off.
That even with the most corner cutting the maximum you get is 1 reaper and 4 hellions at 6 minutes (2 hellions still at home). It doesn't matter if you go factory before expand because you are limited by gas. Palmbay either didn't write the correct timing or he forgot to mention that the terran went for some weird 1 base opener with gas first or double gas both of which dont require the zerg to expand so fast. The gasless 4 queen build is kind of outdated since reapers can damage you more easily when you dont have speed and deny your 3rd base. If you want to learn a standard build that works on every map i would suggest this: The gasless opener can work on some maps for example on 4 player maps or maps where there is only one entrance for reapers you can also open pool first and deflect his first reaper with the queen and sneak 2 zerglings around to pull his reapers back. I have been using some varriations of gasless builds in master league but you need to be able to change up you build if they put heavy pressure with reaper-hellion. I haven't seen it in proffessional play since a long time but its certainly not a bad build for ladder especially if you dont want to open the same way every zvt.
On May 21 2015 22:48 Archiatrus wrote: Can someone give me some benchmarks for macro ZvT(Bio) games: I open with 4 queens, double gas @~5:00-5:30(not sure yet when exactly I should take double gas) When to take the third? When to take the forth? When to go to hive?
See above, if you want consistant practice use a 1 gas, 3 queen opener. With 4 queens double gas can be taken as early as 4:30, between 4:50 and 5:00 should be the standard. Third base can go down at 6 minutes if the terran allows it, if not you should make an evo wall and keep droning untill speed is about to finish, take your 3rd around 7 minutes. If the terran player is on 3 bases you should take your 4th once you reach 3 base saturation with 6 gasses, depending on how good your macro is and if you took any damage beforehand that is between 9:00 and 10:00 minutes. The timing of your hive depends on how the game goes, usually you dont want to tech to hive before you have 8 gasses and around 75-80 drones. For a lower level player it might be ok to go for hive faster since you will have problems spending your money anyways and ultras are, unlike your lair tech units, insanely larvae efficient.
I've been exclusively playing the 4 queen gasless in zvt. 4:30 gas is wayyyy too early. It really depends on what you want to accomplish with your build. 5:30 is a good time, though you can push it back later if you plan on making a queen + spine defense. I like to get the rw at 5:30 with my gases so I can get 2 roaches out by 7:00 to safely take my third. Sometimes you can force it down without roaches, but you really shouldn't be able to if they opened reaper/helions.
Some good benchmarks are 50 drones by 8 min, 66 by 10 min.
Thank you for the drone benchmarks. It seems I am way late with my drones. Especially, with the 8:00 one. But I wonder: If you start your expansion by 7:00 it finishes at 8:40. That means I just overdrone my main and nat and transfer them over as soon as my third finishes?
I wanna start taking my practice routine serious, so i finally can break into diamond.
Can you guys recommend a ZvT and ZvP build to start practicing?
ZvZ is my best MU and i have a perfect build for that, that holds all type of allins and goes straight into 80 drone roach hydra etc. (only MU i beat diamonds 65%+)
Im looking for something similar for the other MU. (hold cheese transition into macro)
Vs Terran it must be roach/hydra style, im pretty comfortable with Viper control (finally LOL - took me over a year)
vs Protoss i dont really care but i expect it to be something ling/hydra. Ususally i use corruptors for collosi (decent succes) but if you guys could argue about Vipers beeing better i start using that - i guess you can take out the stalkers aswell with clouds. But is there enough energy for both clouds and abduct?
Finally how to deal with storms with that composition?
When done right there is not lot of things terran can kill you with. Even if you don't scout the opponent if you hit all timings.
OMG this might sound stupid, but i completly forgot about gasless openings, i been using a ling/opener (with gas obvious) that i change on the flow into some some awkward 1-1 roach timing. I remember training some similar gasless BO a few months ago. After i tried ling/bling (that doesnt work for me) i kinda stuck with the bling opnener and tried making it into a roach timing. My problem back then was reaper/hellion. But now im much more comfortable with defending thoose, most of the time i forget about ling speed anyways so i just pile up gas.
On May 21 2015 12:26 Palmbay wrote: So.. are those "standard builds" in the OP actually any good anymore? In ZvT ive been trying to perfect that snute build and i keep getting wrecked by people who standardly go reapers/reactor hellions. When i try to take the 3rd at 5:50 they have 4 hellions and 5 reapers and i cant break that with the two queens i have spreading creep and the 4 slow lings the build says to have. I thought they were supposed to be safe builds? Sorry im just frustrated
Could you post a replay of the game you are talking about. For a standard 3 base opener the build I do in the replay is good vs non hellbat/medivac attacks
For him to have 4 helions and 5 reapers at 3rd by 5:50 I think that has be Rax > fac > CC instead of rax > cc > fac? Standard reaper > CC openers have fac completing 'round 5:20, maybe earlier if there's some corner cutting, so there's not enough time for 4 helion/5reaper to show up at 5:50.
As for the OP itself, the general build ideas in all of the matchups are fine, but the exact builds aren't standard in the current meta game. They do the job just fine. You *should* check out MG's replay for an up to date variant, but it sounds like the build your opponent is doing is whats throwing you off.
That even with the most corner cutting the maximum you get is 1 reaper and 4 hellions at 6 minutes (2 hellions still at home). It doesn't matter if you go factory before expand because you are limited by gas. Palmbay either didn't write the correct timing or he forgot to mention that the terran went for some weird 1 base opener with gas first or double gas both of which dont require the zerg to expand so fast. The gasless 4 queen build is kind of outdated since reapers can damage you more easily when you dont have speed and deny your 3rd base. If you want to learn a standard build that works on every map i would suggest this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgnaGLDHnc8 The gasless opener can work on some maps for example on 4 player maps or maps where there is only one entrance for reapers you can also open pool first and deflect his first reaper with the queen and sneak 2 zerglings around to pull his reapers back. I have been using some varriations of gasless builds in master league but you need to be able to change up you build if they put heavy pressure with reaper-hellion. I haven't seen it in proffessional play since a long time but its certainly not a bad build for ladder especially if you dont want to open the same way every zvt.
On May 21 2015 22:48 Archiatrus wrote: Can someone give me some benchmarks for macro ZvT(Bio) games: I open with 4 queens, double gas @~5:00-5:30(not sure yet when exactly I should take double gas) When to take the third? When to take the forth? When to go to hive?
See above, if you want consistant practice use a 1 gas, 3 queen opener. With 4 queens double gas can be taken as early as 4:30, between 4:50 and 5:00 should be the standard. Third base can go down at 6 minutes if the terran allows it, if not you should make an evo wall and keep droning untill speed is about to finish, take your 3rd around 7 minutes. If the terran player is on 3 bases you should take your 4th once you reach 3 base saturation with 6 gasses, depending on how good your macro is and if you took any damage beforehand that is between 9:00 and 10:00 minutes. The timing of your hive depends on how the game goes, usually you dont want to tech to hive before you have 8 gasses and around 75-80 drones. For a lower level player it might be ok to go for hive faster since you will have problems spending your money anyways and ultras are, unlike your lair tech units, insanely larvae efficient.
I've been exclusively playing the 4 queen gasless in zvt. 4:30 gas is wayyyy too early. It really depends on what you want to accomplish with your build. 5:30 is a good time, though you can push it back later if you plan on making a queen + spine defense. I like to get the rw at 5:30 with my gases so I can get 2 roaches out by 7:00 to safely take my third. Sometimes you can force it down without roaches, but you really shouldn't be able to if they opened reaper/helions.
Some good benchmarks are 50 drones by 8 min, 66 by 10 min.
Thank you for the drone benchmarks. It seems I am way late with my drones. Especially, with the 8:00 one. But I wonder: If you start your expansion by 7:00 it finishes at 8:40. That means I just overdrone my main and nat and transfer them over as soon as my third finishes?
Yeah, this is something I'm bad with. Even if the base isn't done, keep spending your larva + money. Usually I drone to 18 per base, make safety roach (6-9 depending on the scout), then continue droning. Once the base is close to finishing I just rally to it and long distance mine.
I've been waiting to saturate my third before taking my 3,4,5,6 gas all at once. I dubbed it the "rule of 2 gas" as a joke from Pig's rule of 1 base build. hehe. I'd be interested in other ppl's opinions on the build since you rarely see gasless play in the meta.
On May 23 2015 00:52 Treznor wrote: Hello fellow nerdballers,
I wanna start taking my practice routine serious, so i finally can break into diamond.
Can you guys recommend a ZvT and ZvP build to start practicing?
ZvZ is my best MU and i have a perfect build for that, that holds all type of allins and goes straight into 80 drone roach hydra etc. (only MU i beat diamonds 65%+)
Im looking for something similar for the other MU. (hold cheese transition into macro)
Vs Terran it must be roach/hydra style, im pretty comfortable with Viper control (finally LOL - took me over a year)
vs Protoss i dont really care but i expect it to be something ling/hydra. Ususally i use corruptors for collosi (decent succes) but if you guys could argue about Vipers beeing better i start using that - i guess you can take out the stalkers aswell with clouds. But is there enough energy for both clouds and abduct?
Finally how to deal with storms with that composition?
Thanks in advance
Best regards
Treznor
Corruptors are absolutely atrocious in zvp. They cost way too much and take way too long to get on the field. 200-200 investment just for the spire. Then, 100-100 for each corruptor with 40 second build time. So you invest like 1000/1000 for 8 corruptors. Best case scenario, they kill the colossus only after your roach hydra army is roasted and they warp in stalkers to finish the game. Your entire investment into spire tech is now void.
Vs robo comps, you want to tech to vipers. Vs templar, tech to broodlords. Shoot me a pm if you want more detail.
There is 3 reasons i would go corruptor in ZvP. There is this one strong timing i have seen life do with roach ling corruptor against stargate into robo openings. With 3 base 2+ roach hydra getting huge advantage and will not have enough time to get vipers. With muta styles you may want to go for corruptors to defend your mutas against phoenix, with good enough economy you can brute force sometimes.
On May 21 2015 22:48 Archiatrus wrote: Can someone give me some benchmarks for macro ZvT(Bio) games: I open with 4 queens, double gas @~5:00-5:30(not sure yet when exactly I should take double gas) When to take the third? When to take the forth? When to go to hive?
For a gasless ZvT here's where you should be at, assuming you're playing standard:
5:20 - Double Gas (I usually don't look at the timing, is taken at 36 supply). 5:50-6:00 - 3rd base. 6:00 - 44 supply (4 queens). 8:00 - 65 supply. 9:00-10:00 4th base (9:30 is a good timing that takes into account early T harass). 10:00 - 90 supply. 13:00 Infestation Pit + Hive (obviously depends on game).
RE: gasless: I think Iron Fortress is a fantastic map for gasless as reapers can only really come from 1 way and then the 1/1 speed roach push can delay their 3rd forever and you can transition to either roach/hydra or roach/bane from there
whats the general order of getting things in roach wars ZvZ? I open reasonably early 3rd with some lings while going into lair and +1 range, but do i get infestors or hydra first? this fucking rock paper scissor with roach bane>roach hydra>roach infestor>roach bane is making me murderous
I started laddering again recently, left all my placements, and landed in bronze. What's a good way of deciding when to start creep-spreading, and when to inject? Should I pump out one more queen than necessary, or pull one of my first few queens to really start with the creep-spread?
On May 27 2015 00:49 IntoTheheart wrote: I started laddering again recently, left all my placements, and landed in bronze. What's a good way of deciding when to start creep-spreading, and when to inject? Should I pump out one more queen than necessary, or pull one of my first few queens to really start with the creep-spread?
I think injections should always always have priority until you get to a higher level. Just make a 3rd queen at your nat and use that one, maybe add a 4th if you feel like it
EDIT: If you really want to get the creep spread down immediately, you can get a tumour with the second set of energy on one of your queens. First set of energy should pretty much always be an inject though
On May 27 2015 00:49 IntoTheheart wrote: I started laddering again recently, left all my placements, and landed in bronze. What's a good way of deciding when to start creep-spreading, and when to inject? Should I pump out one more queen than necessary, or pull one of my first few queens to really start with the creep-spread?
I think injections should always always have priority until you get to a higher level. Just make a 3rd queen at your nat and use that one, maybe add a 4th if you feel like it
EDIT: If you really want to get the creep spread down immediately, you can get a tumour with the second set of energy on one of your queens. First set of energy should pretty much always be an inject though
Awesome, thanks! Is the advantage of creep different for different levels of play? I like how it can reinforce my armies when I'm beating down, but is there a certain point where the vision becomes more important?
On May 27 2015 00:49 IntoTheheart wrote: I started laddering again recently, left all my placements, and landed in bronze. What's a good way of deciding when to start creep-spreading, and when to inject? Should I pump out one more queen than necessary, or pull one of my first few queens to really start with the creep-spread?
I think injections should always always have priority until you get to a higher level. Just make a 3rd queen at your nat and use that one, maybe add a 4th if you feel like it
EDIT: If you really want to get the creep spread down immediately, you can get a tumour with the second set of energy on one of your queens. First set of energy should pretty much always be an inject though
Awesome, thanks! Is the advantage of creep different for different levels of play? I like how it can reinforce my armies when I'm beating down, but is there a certain point where the vision becomes more important?
the value of creep vs larvae is different at different levels I'd say. I always found the extra vision to be just as nice as the movement buff, but you should be spreading it constantly and as far as you can anyway, so just enjoy both lol
Hello. I'm insekt. I lose every single PvZ unless I face a zerg player who happens to be VERY VERY much worse than me. Any zerg that simply macros decently can beat me easily. I have tried many different builds and styles and nothing seems to work. With terran I am able to beat up to master players in all match ups and as protoss I can defeat diamond players in both PvP and PvT. However vs zerg I always lose unless the zerg is so very incredibly unbelievably bad. It's getting so frustrating that I might just quit Starcraft II.
Some builds I use: Pheonix 3 gate to 3rd around 10.00 with pheonix to kill some drones. 1 void ray and gateway units to defend my 3rd. Die to mass roach.
2 base immortal allin: they get a bunch of roaches and there's not much I can do. I try to stop them from scouting but even when they don't scout they are somehow prepared. I move out around 9.45-10.25 minutes. Sometimes they go fast mutas and then I don't have enough to kill them because I don't have that many stalkers because I got immortals. I kill the lings they have at my 3rd without showing the immortals and still they know somehow.
4 gates to 3rd at 7.30: I die to mass roach. Or they get many expansions and drones and I die in the late game.
I have tried many different builds, styles etc. Even if I macro as well as my opponent I still die because I have to cause MASSIVE(30 drones) economic damage in order to play an even mid or late game. I know it's hard to give me advice when I don't post any more specific, but I can't really because I lose every match there's nothing to specify. I lose regardless of the build I do and regardless of the build the zerg goes for.
I do either forge first or gateway first. I get my natural at 17 supply if FFE and 24 if gateway first. I get 7-8 sentries with 4 gate to 7.30 3rd. I get upgrades, I don't float that much typically etc. I really can play like a diamond player in PvT and PvP. I was master with terran and was able to beat master zergs. Still am. But with protoss I get completely destroyed.
Mod please move this post to the protoss help me thread? I posted it here accidentally.
On May 21 2015 12:26 Palmbay wrote: So.. are those "standard builds" in the OP actually any good anymore? In ZvT ive been trying to perfect that snute build and i keep getting wrecked by people who standardly go reapers/reactor hellions. When i try to take the 3rd at 5:50 they have 4 hellions and 5 reapers and i cant break that with the two queens i have spreading creep and the 4 slow lings the build says to have. I thought they were supposed to be safe builds? Sorry im just frustrated
Could you post a replay of the game you are talking about. For a standard 3 base opener the build I do in the replay is good vs non hellbat/medivac attacks
For him to have 4 helions and 5 reapers at 3rd by 5:50 I think that has be Rax > fac > CC instead of rax > cc > fac? Standard reaper > CC openers have fac completing 'round 5:20, maybe earlier if there's some corner cutting, so there's not enough time for 4 helion/5reaper to show up at 5:50.
As for the OP itself, the general build ideas in all of the matchups are fine, but the exact builds aren't standard in the current meta game. They do the job just fine. You *should* check out MG's replay for an up to date variant, but it sounds like the build your opponent is doing is whats throwing you off.
That even with the most corner cutting the maximum you get is 1 reaper and 4 hellions at 6 minutes (2 hellions still at home). It doesn't matter if you go factory before expand because you are limited by gas. Palmbay either didn't write the correct timing or he forgot to mention that the terran went for some weird 1 base opener with gas first or double gas both of which dont require the zerg to expand so fast. The gasless 4 queen build is kind of outdated since reapers can damage you more easily when you dont have speed and deny your 3rd base. If you want to learn a standard build that works on every map i would suggest this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgnaGLDHnc8 The gasless opener can work on some maps for example on 4 player maps or maps where there is only one entrance for reapers you can also open pool first and deflect his first reaper with the queen and sneak 2 zerglings around to pull his reapers back. I have been using some varriations of gasless builds in master league but you need to be able to change up you build if they put heavy pressure with reaper-hellion. I haven't seen it in proffessional play since a long time but its certainly not a bad build for ladder especially if you dont want to open the same way every zvt.
On May 21 2015 22:48 Archiatrus wrote: Can someone give me some benchmarks for macro ZvT(Bio) games: I open with 4 queens, double gas @~5:00-5:30(not sure yet when exactly I should take double gas) When to take the third? When to take the forth? When to go to hive?
See above, if you want consistant practice use a 1 gas, 3 queen opener. With 4 queens double gas can be taken as early as 4:30, between 4:50 and 5:00 should be the standard. Third base can go down at 6 minutes if the terran allows it, if not you should make an evo wall and keep droning untill speed is about to finish, take your 3rd around 7 minutes. If the terran player is on 3 bases you should take your 4th once you reach 3 base saturation with 6 gasses, depending on how good your macro is and if you took any damage beforehand that is between 9:00 and 10:00 minutes. The timing of your hive depends on how the game goes, usually you dont want to tech to hive before you have 8 gasses and around 75-80 drones. For a lower level player it might be ok to go for hive faster since you will have problems spending your money anyways and ultras are, unlike your lair tech units, insanely larvae efficient.
I've been exclusively playing the 4 queen gasless in zvt. 4:30 gas is wayyyy too early. It really depends on what you want to accomplish with your build. 5:30 is a good time, though you can push it back later if you plan on making a queen + spine defense. I like to get the rw at 5:30 with my gases so I can get 2 roaches out by 7:00 to safely take my third. Sometimes you can force it down without roaches, but you really shouldn't be able to if they opened reaper/helions.
Some good benchmarks are 50 drones by 8 min, 66 by 10 min.
Thank you for the drone benchmarks. It seems I am way late with my drones. Especially, with the 8:00 one. But I wonder: If you start your expansion by 7:00 it finishes at 8:40. That means I just overdrone my main and nat and transfer them over as soon as my third finishes?
Yes, that works. That is what I do. you can have slightly under 50 drones on two bases, and it will give you just slightly lower income if that amount of drones was spread over 3 bases. However, on two bases you can defend your drones more easily from hellion and banshees, if you have 4 queens and can block your nat ramp.
here are some additional benchmarks If you opening with gasless 4 queen, you want to hit 44 supply by 5:30 or earlier. You would like to be over 125 supply by 10:30 with 1 1 upgrades done.
to reach these benchmarks you need to be able to spend all of your larve at pop. Or you will fall behind. The two usual mistakes that zergs do are over making ovs. and getting gas too fast. You always want to have a small amount of min float (after 44 supply) so you don't low min blocked, and thus can not spend your larve.
here are a few options you can try out. by supply 34: ov 44: 2 gas, 2 ov, and RW or Spine, Or 5th queen, 55, ov 2 more gas, lair 60, two evos
Or
34ov 44, 3 gas + 2ov 55, ov, rw, and two evo 60, ov, lair, and 4th gas.
Or
34ov 44, 2 ov + rw or Spine. 55, 4 gas, 2 evo. 60, lair
Hi guys, help with this game please, his hellions were really intimidating me so I used 2 base muta which is a build I know I'm executing poorly, but if anyone could walk me through what I did wrong in this game that would be awesome.
Never posted a replay before so if it's fucked up apologies.
On May 27 2015 06:02 Beelzebub1 wrote: Hi guys, help with this game please, his hellions were really intimidating me so I used 2 base muta which is a build I know I'm executing poorly, but if anyone could walk me through what I did wrong in this game that would be awesome.
Never posted a replay before so if it's fucked up apologies.
A few quick notes, not claiming completeness in any way:
• You don't know the standard ZvT macro build well enough. Watch PiG's video that is posted here regularly ("The rule of 1 gas"). Compare his saturation speed with yours. Follow each of the steps he makes closely. Don't mix up builds like in the replay (4 queen and speed opener). • Your opponent's hellions weren't earlier than usual. The timing was completely standard, and with good macro you shouldn't be intimidated. Just careful. • 2 base muta as a build doesn't include double evo and shouldn't have five queens (three instead and usually a spine crawler in the natural). Your saturation should be fast enough to allow for triple gas and lair around 6:00. Your lair was around 8:00. • Don't forget to build a macro hatch and enough queens to inject four to five bases as much as possible. You really need the larvae to spend your minerals.
It seems like your play becomes better in the midgame, so really becoming more comfortable with the opener should be your focus. Once you get the hang of it, the matchup should feel quite different because you'll be in a much better position going into the midgame. Keep up.
On May 27 2015 06:02 Beelzebub1 wrote: Hi guys, help with this game please, his hellions were really intimidating me so I used 2 base muta which is a build I know I'm executing poorly, but if anyone could walk me through what I did wrong in this game that would be awesome.
Never posted a replay before so if it's fucked up apologies.
On May 27 2015 06:02 Beelzebub1 wrote: Hi guys, help with this game please, his hellions were really intimidating me so I used 2 base muta which is a build I know I'm executing poorly, but if anyone could walk me through what I did wrong in this game that would be awesome.
Never posted a replay before so if it's fucked up apologies.
A few quick notes, not claiming completeness in any way:
• You don't know the standard ZvT macro build well enough. Watch PiG's video that is posted here regularly ("The rule of 1 gas"). Compare his saturation speed with yours. Follow each of the steps he makes closely. Don't mix up builds like in the replay (4 queen and speed opener). • Your opponent's hellions weren't earlier than usual. The timing was completely standard, and with good macro you shouldn't be intimidated. Just careful. • 2 base muta as a build doesn't include double evo and shouldn't have five queens (three instead and usually a spine crawler in the natural). Your saturation should be fast enough to allow for triple gas and lair around 6:00. Your lair was around 8:00. • Don't forget to build a macro hatch and enough queens to inject four to five bases as much as possible. You really need the larvae to spend your minerals.
It seems like your play becomes better in the midgame, so really becoming more comfortable with the opener should be your focus. Once you get the hang of it, the matchup should feel quite different because you'll be in a much better position going into the midgame. Keep up.
Yea I figured my tech was way too late so thanks for the correct timings, my mechanics are decent in ZvT but I always feel with just 3 Queens the hellions can really just sac themselves on the drone lines, hence my intimidation D:
EPT
