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On May 27 2015 03:17 insekt1 wrote: Hello. I'm insekt. I lose every single PvZ unless I face a zerg player who happens to be VERY VERY much worse than me. Any zerg that simply macros decently can beat me easily. I have tried many different builds and styles and nothing seems to work. With terran I am able to beat up to master players in all match ups and as protoss I can defeat diamond players in both PvP and PvT. However vs zerg I always lose unless the zerg is so very incredibly unbelievably bad. It's getting so frustrating that I might just quit Starcraft II.
Some builds I use: Pheonix 3 gate to 3rd around 10.00 with pheonix to kill some drones. 1 void ray and gateway units to defend my 3rd. Die to mass roach.
2 base immortal allin: they get a bunch of roaches and there's not much I can do. I try to stop them from scouting but even when they don't scout they are somehow prepared. I move out around 9.45-10.25 minutes. Sometimes they go fast mutas and then I don't have enough to kill them because I don't have that many stalkers because I got immortals. I kill the lings they have at my 3rd without showing the immortals and still they know somehow.
4 gates to 3rd at 7.30: I die to mass roach. Or they get many expansions and drones and I die in the late game.
I have tried many different builds, styles etc. Even if I macro as well as my opponent I still die because I have to cause MASSIVE(30 drones) economic damage in order to play an even mid or late game. I know it's hard to give me advice when I don't post any more specific, but I can't really because I lose every match there's nothing to specify. I lose regardless of the build I do and regardless of the build the zerg goes for.
I do either forge first or gateway first. I get my natural at 17 supply if FFE and 24 if gateway first. I get 7-8 sentries with 4 gate to 7.30 3rd. I get upgrades, I don't float that much typically etc. I really can play like a diamond player in PvT and PvP. I was master with terran and was able to beat master zergs. Still am. But with protoss I get completely destroyed.
Mod please move this post to the protoss help me thread? I posted it here accidentally.
This should be in Protoss Help Me but look up the +2 Blink build that hits at ~9:30 or something. It's annoying for Zerg to deal with and they lose if they underprepare. Also provides a decent transition. You can also do San Gate -> Immo Sentry although that's easier to scout out and prevent.
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On May 27 2015 08:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:Yea I figured my tech was way too late so thanks for the correct timings, my mechanics are decent in ZvT but I always feel with just 3 Queens the hellions can really just sac themselves on the drone lines, hence my intimidation D:
Thanks for the videos guys I appreciate the help!
If he sends the Hellions into your bases, start making non stop Lings and split the Drones. Try not to reveal all the Lings and send them straight to the Terran's base after cleaning up the Hellions. Most Terrans will have their Depots down and gloating over their Drone kills but become very sad once the Ling swell starts ravaging their natural and possibly the main if you manage to get in.
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On May 27 2015 09:43 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 08:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:Yea I figured my tech was way too late so thanks for the correct timings, my mechanics are decent in ZvT but I always feel with just 3 Queens the hellions can really just sac themselves on the drone lines, hence my intimidation D:
Thanks for the videos guys I appreciate the help!
If he sends the Hellions into your bases, start making non stop Lings and split the Drones. Try not to reveal all the Lings and send them straight to the Terran's base after cleaning up the Hellions. Most Terrans will have their Depots down and gloating over their Drone kills but become very sad once the Ling swell starts ravaging their natural and possibly the main if you manage to get in.
You have 3 options:
1. 3 queen with speed, with 6-8 defensive lings. So if they do run past you surround them with lings on creep.
2. 3 queen with 1 spine. Block with third queen at nat wall (two evo 1 RW or Bane nest), spine defends queen from getting ganked
3. 4 queen, 2 queen wall. Make sure to ONLY make one set of tumors with the two creep/blocking queens, for your 2nd inject cycle, so you can bank up the transfuses on both blocking queens. If they open up cc first, or rax cc late gas. you can creep forever and don't need to bank them.
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New Zerg player here. What are general guidelines (geared toward newer players) for drone scouting (if any) in ZvZ/ZvT/ZvP? (e.g., In TvP, send 13th SCV, etc.).
I've seen some threads on this topic but they're pretty dated at this point (e.g., from 2012 and early 2013).
In terms of conservatism, it's safe to assume that I won't be able to hold cheeses/all-ins unless I scout in advance and prepare accordingly =P (i.e., it would be good to err on the side of conservatism). For example, I know that better players don't need to send an SCV scout in TvT if they are performing a certain build as they're confident they can hold everything - but that it's still good practice for newer Terran players to send the 13th SCV..
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On June 03 2015 13:52 dchaudh wrote: New Zerg player here. What are general guidelines (geared toward newer players) for drone scouting (if any) in ZvZ/ZvT/ZvP? (e.g., In TvP, send 13th SCV, etc.).
I've seen some threads on this topic but they're pretty dated at this point (e.g., from 2012 and early 2013).
In terms of conservatism, it's safe to assume that I won't be able to hold cheeses/all-ins unless I scout in advance and prepare accordingly =P (i.e., it would be good to err on the side of conservatism). For example, I know that better players don't need to send an SCV scout in TvT if they are performing a certain build as they're confident they can hold everything - but that it's still good practice for newer Terran players to send the 13th SCV..
Diamond Zerg here, I drone scout on 10 in both ZvP and ZvT (and sometimes ZvZ, because I'm a punk like this, but don't do it): -on 2p maps, your drone arrives at their base around the same time you will be placing 15hatch which means:
-you can hatchblock Protoss before your own expansion (either with pool or hatch->pool after the block, I go pool not have trouble vs a probe/pylon block on natural)
-you can 3hatch before pool vs gateway openings if that's your thing ( I 15hatch and then either 3hatch before pool or pool->gas after scouting in what order they got cyber/nexus/gas) -you get a free hatch first if it's nexus first
-if it's forge first, you can still 15hatch, but then dropping your pool at 14 so cannons shouldn't be a problem (but if you don't like holding the cheese, just 15pool when scouting forge)
-if there's nothing at their base, I place pool immediately, follow with gas and prepare mentally for the drone micro vs zealot proxy
vs Terran: -you can 3hatch before pool vs 14cc -you can 15hatch/14pool if you see nothing at their base (because 14cc starts after your 15hatch, if you scout no rax, it doesn't mean it's proxy right away ;/) -you can hatchblock their natural vs 14cc on highground -you can skip gas if they are gasless too or are taking gas late (which means reactor or some 1base bullshit without reapers) -however, most of the time it's just 12rax 12gas reapers so drone scout vs Terran is rarely that useful
vs Zerg: -don't drone scout. If you aren't going to do something cheesy (evo chamber block their gas or sth), it's not worth it. If you are scared of early pools, you can 15pool and still have around the same economy that 15hatch with drone scout does
However, I firmly believe that if you have trouble holding off early game cheeses, doing 14/14 in every matchup is by far the best option (much better than drone scouting) since it hardcounters most of them and allows you to apply pressure/punish greedy builds yourself.
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On June 03 2015 22:00 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 13:52 dchaudh wrote: New Zerg player here. What are general guidelines (geared toward newer players) for drone scouting (if any) in ZvZ/ZvT/ZvP? (e.g., In TvP, send 13th SCV, etc.).
I've seen some threads on this topic but they're pretty dated at this point (e.g., from 2012 and early 2013).
In terms of conservatism, it's safe to assume that I won't be able to hold cheeses/all-ins unless I scout in advance and prepare accordingly =P (i.e., it would be good to err on the side of conservatism). For example, I know that better players don't need to send an SCV scout in TvT if they are performing a certain build as they're confident they can hold everything - but that it's still good practice for newer Terran players to send the 13th SCV..
Diamond Zerg here, I drone scout on 10 in both ZvP and ZvT (and sometimes ZvZ, because I'm a punk like this, but don't do it): -on 2p maps, your drone arrives at their base around the same time you will be placing 15hatch which means: -you can hatchblock Protoss before your own expansion (either with pool or hatch->pool after the block, I go pool not have trouble vs a probe/pylon block on natural) -you can 3hatch before pool vs gateway openings if that's your thing ( I 15hatch and then either 3hatch before pool or pool->gas after scouting in what order they got cyber/nexus/gas) -you get a free hatch first if it's nexus first -if it's forge first, you can still 15hatch, but then dropping your pool at 14 so cannons shouldn't be a problem (but if you don't like holding the cheese, just 15pool when scouting forge) -if there's nothing at their base, I place pool immediately, follow with gas and prepare mentally for the drone micro vs zealot proxy vs Terran: -you can 3hatch before pool vs 14cc -you can 15hatch/14pool if you see nothing at their base (because 14cc starts after your 15hatch, if you scout no rax, it doesn't mean it's proxy right away ;/) -you can hatchblock their natural vs 14cc on highground -you can skip gas if they are gasless too or are taking gas late (which means reactor or some 1base bullshit without reapers) -however, most of the time it's just 12rax 12gas reapers so drone scout vs Terran is rarely that useful vs Zerg: -don't drone scout. If you aren't going to do something cheesy (evo chamber block their gas or sth), it's not worth it. If you are scared of early pools, you can 15pool and still have around the same economy that 15hatch with drone scout does However, I firmly believe that if you have trouble holding off early game cheeses, doing 14/14 in every matchup is by far the best option (much better than drone scouting) since it hardcounters most of them and allows you to apply pressure/punish greedy builds yourself.
Thanks for the thoughtful, thorough post - much appreciated!
One follow-up question for you: I am in fact not confident in my ability to hold cheese so the 14/14 sounds like a good option. Though, can you clarify if you mean (a) 14 Hatch/14 Pool or (b) 14 Gas/14 Pool (which I presume is followed by a hatchery, shortly thereafter)? (Or is it something else entirely?)
Sorry, I'm not too familiar with zerg shorthand, so to speak, and I figured it's safer not to assume...
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On June 04 2015 02:29 dchaudh wrote: Thanks for the thoughtful, thorough post - much appreciated!
One follow-up question for you: I am in fact not confident in my ability to hold cheese so the 14/14 sounds like a good option. Though, can you clarify if you mean (a) 14 Hatch/14 Pool or (b) 14 Gas/14 Pool (which I presume is followed by a hatchery, shortly thereafter)? (Or is it something else entirely?)
Sorry, I'm not too familiar with zerg shorthand, so to speak, and I figured it's safer not to assume...
14gas/14pool/15OL/15Q/21hatch is typically how it goes.
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On June 04 2015 02:29 dchaudh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 22:00 Ej_ wrote:On June 03 2015 13:52 dchaudh wrote: New Zerg player here. What are general guidelines (geared toward newer players) for drone scouting (if any) in ZvZ/ZvT/ZvP? (e.g., In TvP, send 13th SCV, etc.).
I've seen some threads on this topic but they're pretty dated at this point (e.g., from 2012 and early 2013).
In terms of conservatism, it's safe to assume that I won't be able to hold cheeses/all-ins unless I scout in advance and prepare accordingly =P (i.e., it would be good to err on the side of conservatism). For example, I know that better players don't need to send an SCV scout in TvT if they are performing a certain build as they're confident they can hold everything - but that it's still good practice for newer Terran players to send the 13th SCV..
Diamond Zerg here, I drone scout on 10 in both ZvP and ZvT (and sometimes ZvZ, because I'm a punk like this, but don't do it): -on 2p maps, your drone arrives at their base around the same time you will be placing 15hatch which means: -you can hatchblock Protoss before your own expansion (either with pool or hatch->pool after the block, I go pool not have trouble vs a probe/pylon block on natural) -you can 3hatch before pool vs gateway openings if that's your thing ( I 15hatch and then either 3hatch before pool or pool->gas after scouting in what order they got cyber/nexus/gas) -you get a free hatch first if it's nexus first -if it's forge first, you can still 15hatch, but then dropping your pool at 14 so cannons shouldn't be a problem (but if you don't like holding the cheese, just 15pool when scouting forge) -if there's nothing at their base, I place pool immediately, follow with gas and prepare mentally for the drone micro vs zealot proxy vs Terran: -you can 3hatch before pool vs 14cc -you can 15hatch/14pool if you see nothing at their base (because 14cc starts after your 15hatch, if you scout no rax, it doesn't mean it's proxy right away ;/) -you can hatchblock their natural vs 14cc on highground -you can skip gas if they are gasless too or are taking gas late (which means reactor or some 1base bullshit without reapers) -however, most of the time it's just 12rax 12gas reapers so drone scout vs Terran is rarely that useful vs Zerg: -don't drone scout. If you aren't going to do something cheesy (evo chamber block their gas or sth), it's not worth it. If you are scared of early pools, you can 15pool and still have around the same economy that 15hatch with drone scout does However, I firmly believe that if you have trouble holding off early game cheeses, doing 14/14 in every matchup is by far the best option (much better than drone scouting) since it hardcounters most of them and allows you to apply pressure/punish greedy builds yourself. Thanks for the thoughtful, thorough post - much appreciated! One follow-up question for you: I am in fact not confident in my ability to hold cheese so the 14/14 sounds like a good option. Though, can you clarify if you mean (a) 14 Hatch/14 Pool or (b) 14 Gas/14 Pool (which I presume is followed by a hatchery, shortly thereafter)? (Or is it something else entirely?) Sorry, I'm not too familiar with zerg shorthand, so to speak, and I figured it's safer not to assume... if your main concern is blocking cheese then i personally wouldn't drone scout to terran's base in zvt, i would just do a circuit of likely proxy locations and return the drone home while sending your second overlord to the front of your natural to spot bunkers. mathematically speaking there's a limited area on the map where an 11/11 will be built based on SCV travel time, and if they build it too much further away than that it's not going to be an effective proxy. in a situation where you are being proxied i actually think it's pretty important to have that drone back at home so it can either mine or help you pull against bunkers since your drone production is obviously going to be limited
in zvz it's not typically a good idea because you know almost everything just from seeing the expansion timing with your lead OL - ~2:05 is hatch first, ~2:35 is pool first, 6-8 lings + ~3:00 hatch is gasless 9pool expand, and anything later than that is almost always a 1base allin (speedling, 10pool bane or 1base roach). there are also technical builds where you go gas first but then cut drones to make a really early hatch which looks like 15pool 15hatch, but that comes down to more advanced scouting and game sense
if you really really have your heart set on drone scouting in zvz to know 100% the exact build ahead of time, you can do a losira style drone scout where you check gas/pool timings and then if he's going hatch first delay his hatch protoss-style while getting your own expansion, and if he's going 15p/15h you just shrug and go home while expanding. but if you fail to delay a hatch or if you don't understand the gas timing you see then it's really pointless
in zvp i agree with everything ej said, if there's no forge you get free 3hatch and if it's nexus first (pylon in the natural with no tech building) you can hatchblock and make protoss an extremely sad panda. however i'd be careful with trying to go 15hatch 14pool against cannons like he said, because if you're bad at holding cheese you can still absolutely get cannon rushed by a good player who knows how to wall in cannons. it's fine to just go 15pool against forge. you also don't have to see that there's "nothing in his base" like ej said to confirm a proxy 2gate, all you need to see is the probe count. it's VERY easy to tell the difference if you practice paying attention to it a couple games in a row, i've won so many games on vaani research station just by scouting the mineral line and then laughing while making a pool and spines
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On June 03 2015 13:52 dchaudh wrote: New Zerg player here. What are general guidelines (geared toward newer players) for drone scouting (if any) in ZvZ/ZvT/ZvP? (e.g., In TvP, send 13th SCV, etc.).
I've seen some threads on this topic but they're pretty dated at this point (e.g., from 2012 and early 2013).
In terms of conservatism, it's safe to assume that I won't be able to hold cheeses/all-ins unless I scout in advance and prepare accordingly =P (i.e., it would be good to err on the side of conservatism). For example, I know that better players don't need to send an SCV scout in TvT if they are performing a certain build as they're confident they can hold everything - but that it's still good practice for newer Terran players to send the 13th SCV..
I took the liberty to look through your post history and noticed you're around Silver as Terran, so it's safe to say you won't start higher than that as a new Zerg player. At that level, it's really, really important to focus on your macro, that is, your ability to drone, to inject, to not get supply-blocked and to make a lot of units. Knowing to focus on macro is by far the biggest advantage you can get over your opponents in the lower leagues.
Honestly, it doesn't really matter if you drone-scout or not, both is fine from a strategic point of view. If I were you, I wouldn't because it takes away from your focus early on and I wouldn't really know what to look for anyway. At least, I felt that way when I off-raced as Terran a few weeks ago. I only started to scout more once I started losing to the same cheeses and timings repeatedly.
If you play for improvement, it's best to simplify the game as much as possible and then to gradually add complexity. Start with one build for all matchups until you're pretty sure you're being held back by the limitations of the build more than by your ability to macro. Then adjust your build to the specific matchups and only then, slowly, to specific strategies in those matchups. This video of Lowko is a good starting point: + Show Spoiler + I can also recommend FilterSC and TheStaircase by Jakatak. Imbabuilds.com is a good place to have a look at once you want to move towards the "real" builds.
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That Lowko build seems nice, I'm coming back to Zerg after a 6+ month break and this will help me get back in the groove (and practice my new hotkeys. Curse you, Jakatak! ;p ). Thanks mate
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On May 27 2015 08:38 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2015 06:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:Hi guys, help with this game please, his hellions were really intimidating me so I used 2 base muta which is a build I know I'm executing poorly, but if anyone could walk me through what I did wrong in this game that would be awesome. Never posted a replay before so if it's fucked up apologies. http://drop.sc/399360 I cover 2-base muta as executed by Curious here, you might find it useful: http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/comments/3740ei/guide_2base_muta_variations_in_zvt/I highly recommend following all the supplies in that build, it really does make a significant difference going into the midgame for your economy.
I used an adapted version of what you describe for a BO3, because I knew my opponent was meching after max 1 reaper, starting with a helbat-banshee push. I think this might help some other player, so here is a quick description: -Skip ling speed (keep the 100 gas, make him think you will go speed anyway) This way, at 41 supply (about when your 3rd queen finishes), you can instantly start the lair. -No bnest, but a RW at about 6:00, and no need of spine. -Instead of 12 lings, make 4 roaches (this would be the 100 gas normally used for the lair) You will be able to defend hellbat+banshee with the 2 queens and 4 roaches (in case you can bring the B2 queen to go up to 3).
After the set of 6-8 muta, the next 100 gas goes to roach speed, then next 250 to +1/+1 (range). While you harass with muta, drone up the B3. Once the B3 is saturated, follow up with a big roach push on the +1/+1 timing, now they have thors and 75 turrets in their bases. If you didn't manage to kill tanks or dangerous things with your muta, take the gas on your 3rd, and start hydra den to be prepared for a longer game.
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Hi, I'm a protoss player and have a question. I had a game where I picked off the 3 hatch, then pulled back. He had hydras and roaches. After I got my 3rd up, a bunch of mutas showed up and won him the game. My question is why the Muta switch? and how do I know that its coming?
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On June 07 2015 00:32 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Hi, I'm a protoss player and have a question. I had a game where I picked off the 3 hatch, then pulled back. He had hydras and roaches. After I got my 3rd up, a bunch of mutas showed up and won him the game. My question is why the Muta switch? and how do I know that its coming? If you have the lead, keep the pressure on with Zealot runbies or at the very least scout. I have no idea what your army comp was, but provided you had Sentries, you should have gone for the kill as our production AND income would have been extremely limited.
The rationale behind the Muta switch was to win with a base trade scenario. Since the Zerg's production was limited to 2 Hatches and he couldn't fight you straight on with a properly built Roach Hydra Viper army (you're too far ahead) most Zergs will try to win with the base trade instead hence the Mutas. Should you have scouted it, it would have been really simple to just shut it down with a few Pheonixes and take the game.
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hmm I'm struggling in ZvP a bit -- I play ultra/viper/infestor/queen late-game style and I'm having some issues -- I almost never seem to win vs passive Protosses that don't attack, while I win mostly vs players who do timings/all-ins. anyone else playing this style has any tips on how to deal with passive Protoss? I face 2 types of those -- ones that turtle into unbeatable Skytoss/HT (vs those, I roughly have an idea how to delay my death ) and ones that slowly take a 4th and attack with a maxed out archon/immortal/HT army. aside from microing better, do you guys have any tips on how to deal with those? do I have to get broodlords out in time?
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So is it impossible to build aggressive in ZvT now? Any time I'm the one who attacks the Terran I always lose my army to Widow mines. So far the only thing that's worked for me is just sit with muta/ling/baneling and tech to late game.
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On June 07 2015 02:05 smuckers26 wrote: So is it impossible to build aggressive in ZvT now? Any time I'm the one who attacks the Terran I always lose my army to Widow mines. So far the only thing that's worked for me is just sit with muta/ling/baneling and tech to late game. Yes. ZvT has mainly become a game of defending the opponent until you get your 4 base economy going.
However, you can still be aggressive through harass. What I like to do is keep 1 or 2 Ling runby groups on the map which I can morph to Banelings or just send in to distract the Terran during a critical engagement. This also works if I’m attacking one point and send the Ling group a different way.
Note that this might also just be your individual micro problem against Widow Mines so I definitely would recommend practicing splits and tricks with your units against them.
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In my opinion being aggressive is easiest against terran. Most of the ways are pretty all in though. But until like high master/GM, something like roach hydra 2/2 can get you close to 90% win rate. As there is lot things to get advantages before that and its strong enough timing.
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On June 07 2015 01:04 Alchemik wrote:hmm I'm struggling in ZvP a bit -- I play ultra/viper/infestor/queen late-game style and I'm having some issues -- I almost never seem to win vs passive Protosses that don't attack, while I win mostly vs players who do timings/all-ins. anyone else playing this style has any tips on how to deal with passive Protoss? I face 2 types of those -- ones that turtle into unbeatable Skytoss/HT (vs those, I roughly have an idea how to delay my death  ) and ones that slowly take a 4th and attack with a maxed out archon/immortal/HT army. aside from microing better, do you guys have any tips on how to deal with those? do I have to get broodlords out in time?
same problem here. I lose vs late game P all the time. What do i do vs VR collo storm/archon? With the SH nerf I hqve no idea what I should be doing or what my endgame comp should be. Muta switch?
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On June 07 2015 12:47 SacredCoconut wrote: In my opinion being aggressive is easiest against terran. Most of the ways are pretty all in though. But until like high master/GM, something like roach hydra 2/2 can get you close to 90% win rate. As there is lot things to get advantages before that and its strong enough timing. i think roach pushes into muta ling bane or roach/roach-ling allins are also okay on ladder. i don't think they're "better" on paper than bread and butter defensive muta ling bane, but if your goal is to play aggressive because you find it fun there's nothing wrong with throwing some roaches at a terran player. yeah sometimes you'll run into WOL veterans who still build blind siege tanks, super-scared players who make 8 bunkers because they saw the roach warren, or just people who scout well and stop your attack, but that's the nature of ladder. you'll also smash plenty of greedy opponents
another style i like to throw in sometimes is fast muta with fast baneling speed and no 1/1 upgrades, try to do as much damage as possible with the mutas and keep terran occupied, then just morph a huge amount of banelings and go for a big bust with the mutas in support and try to get on top of the production. it's a meta play for sure, you're relying on the terran's assumption that you'll go into a normal game like everyone else who goes 2 base muta, but i think it's a nice way to mix it up if you're the kind of player who likes being diverse and aggressive (and i sure am :D)
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On June 08 2015 08:03 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 12:47 SacredCoconut wrote: In my opinion being aggressive is easiest against terran. Most of the ways are pretty all in though. But until like high master/GM, something like roach hydra 2/2 can get you close to 90% win rate. As there is lot things to get advantages before that and its strong enough timing. i think roach pushes into muta ling bane or roach/roach-ling allins are also okay on ladder. i don't think they're "better" on paper than bread and butter defensive muta ling bane, but if your goal is to play aggressive because you find it fun there's nothing wrong with throwing some roaches at a terran player. yeah sometimes you'll run into WOL veterans who still build blind siege tanks, super-scared players who make 8 bunkers because they saw the roach warren, or just people who scout well and stop your attack, but that's the nature of ladder. you'll also smash plenty of greedy opponents another style i like to throw in sometimes is fast muta with fast baneling speed and no 1/1 upgrades, try to do as much damage as possible with the mutas and keep terran occupied, then just morph a huge amount of banelings and go for a big bust with the mutas in support and try to get on top of the production. it's a meta play for sure, you're relying on the terran's assumption that you'll go into a normal game like everyone else who goes 2 base muta, but i think it's a nice way to mix it up if you're the kind of player who likes being diverse and aggressive (and i sure am :D) I open 1/1 roaches a lot and actually am almost always happy to see people make tanks. You can easily transition out of roaches into ling/bane/(roach)/muta and Terran is left with nearly useless tanks (gas from which could have been spent on marauders, medivacs or upgrades [so many people forget/cut them in tvz seriously]). The real bane of roaches are people who make 2+ banshes, but then you can just sit back and hit the aforementioned 2/2 roach/hydra timing so that kind of evens out..
And I definitely recommend all kinds of muta->0/0 or 1/1 speed baneling busts. Very fun builds and if they open with heavy hellion/banshee it gets incredibly easy to kill them.
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