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Hi Summit,
There's really nothing wrong with losing against one-base Terrans. Yes, you don't see it in pro games, and it is indeed weaker than standard play, but you also play much less against it on the ladder. Naturally, there will be people on the ladder that take advantage of that. Unless you really play a lot of games, you're bound to lose against random shit from time to time. I wouldn't take too much away from games like that.
You see your opponent has no natural at 6:30 and then proceed to take a third. That's not good. If you had put those 300 minerals into two queens, you would have been fine, most likely. Generally, you seem to undervalue queens. If Terran goes banshees on one base, you need at least four queens if you don't want to get into trouble. That's what your primary defence against banshees is, not spores. Those are really only for detection because, as you say, you need at least three of them if you want to cover a base with their attack.
Edit: Yeah, ling/bane should be fine against one-base most of the time.
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On June 14 2015 19:25 velvex wrote:
Hi Summit,
There's really nothing wrong with losing against one-base Terrans. Yes, you don't see it in pro games, and it is indeed weaker than standard play, but you also play much less against it on the ladder. Naturally, there will be people on the ladder that take advantage of that. Unless you really play a lot of games, you're bound to lose against random shit from time to time. I wouldn't take too much away from games like that.
You see your opponent has no natural at 6:30 and then proceed to take a third. That's not good. If you had put those 300 minerals into two queens, you would have been fine, most likely. Generally, you seem to undervalue queens. If Terran goes banshees on one base, you need at least four queens if you don't want to get into trouble. That's what your primary defence against banshees is, not spores. Those are really only for detection because, as you say, you need at least three of them if you want to cover a base with their attack.
Edit: Yeah, ling/bane should be fine against one-base most of the time.
thanks alot. i was taking the 3rd because i had the spare minerals and most of the times they will just expand inbase and then fly it over. (makes no sense why he didnt build it at the expo because its vani) on the other hand it was good that i had it after loosing my expo.
you are right i dont use queens alot beside creep spreading and injecting.
thanks alot
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A good reaction to 1 base Terran is 2 base Lair. From there decide on Mutas or Roaches for defense although I would suggest Roach Queen. Perks of Lair is having detection against Banshees for Queens, etc. As velvex says, you should only really stay one base up against your opponent.
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Hi there!
I'm a high gold zerg looking for the love of my... ähm.. no for help against... basically everything. That may sound a little bit too much, but I feel like I do something generally wrong/worse than my fellow gold players. As soon as I scratch the platin line MMR-Points I just loose all the time.
Here just to give you a feeling of what I'm deeling with right now (green line is minimum MMR-Points needed for becoming platin):
http://fs2.directupload.net/images/150615/temp/uieod73b.png
Today I lost against a wide variaty of things against all three races. Here are some replays for you:
vT:
MMM drops with tanks later on: http://sc2share.com/BPK.SC2Replay
Heavy Banshee Harrass into Marines/Vikings/Banshee/Thor: http://sc2share.com/BPO.SC2Replay
vP:
4Gate (didn't loose against it in low/mid Gold): http://sc2share.com/BPL.SC2Replay
vZ:
Early Lings into mass roach: http://sc2share.com/BPM.SC2Replay
Early Roach push: http://sc2share.com/BPN.SC2Replay
I always try to play the Bonjwa BO 2 1/2 Base Roach/Hydra +2 Atk Push at minute 12.
Basically it's 15Hatch before 15 Pool, saturating 2 bases, taking 3rd but don't saturate it and tech up to lair to upgrade roaches/hydras and atk at the 12 min mark.
So far I was pretty successfull with that against P and T (against Z i play 14 Pool/14 Hatch) but lately it just doesn't seem to work any longer.
So What is my problem? Is there something basic I didn't get yet? Is my macro that bad (I feel like it should be pretty solid)? DO I need to work more at my micro?
Please help me, I'm getting very frustrated in high gold :/
Thank you kindly 
PS: Maybe for comparison here is a "good" game against P: http://sc2share.com/BPP.SC2Replay
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On June 15 2015 21:04 aURONad wrote:Hi there! I'm a high gold zerg looking for the love of my... ähm.. no for help against... basically everything. That may sound a little bit too much, but I feel like I do something generally wrong/worse than my fellow gold players. As soon as I scratch the platin line MMR-Points I just loose all the time. Here just to give you a feeling of what I'm deeling with right now (green line is minimum MMR-Points needed for becoming platin): http://fs2.directupload.net/images/150615/temp/uieod73b.pngvP: 4Gate (didn't loose against it in low/mid Gold): http://sc2share.com/BPL.SC2Replay
Looking at just this game.
[Small things]
When natural's completed transfer drones over when main is at 16/24.
Your scouting overlords on this 4 player map just stay at the potential bases and don't move into position to scout and get close to the opponents base, so are just useless.
[The real issue]
So if you spot something like that and you haven't scouted, put a spine and spore at the front of your base. When I see it's 1 base play, I rush ling hydra with some spines at the front, because that just kicks ass. 4 gate should hit around 6:00-6:30 mark iirc (not faced it in donkey's years).
You kept making drones even when you scouted that the natural was not there/super delayed. You should know a 4 gate, or some 1 base all in is coming. Being at 30 drones means you're superior economy, anymore drones you make will not come into effect for a long time and is a waste of larva and resources.
When the attack came, he just a-moved in, you had 4 more roaches about 2 seconds from completion, if you microd back and pull all queens and some drones, you would've held. It is also pretty crucial to micro roaches back from zealots, this makes them commit deeper, utilise your roaches to their best ability and make it harder to escape when you win. Also, you were getting roach speed to defend an all in, you should not have wasted resources on that, personally i wouldn't have gone for the +1 attack, but if you can hold, it gives you a huge advantage going further into the game. Pull all your queens, queen transfuse on roaches or queens and their extra dps can make the hold possible.
Spines and sim city with roach warren/evo chamber at the front of the base does wonders.
Also since it is a 4 gate, you don't want to take 4 gasses, you want 2. Make roach ling spine. Lings are an amazing unit at defending against stalkers, and forces zealots, which roaches are amazing against.
tl;dr. You made bad decisions on defending and should have stopped at 2 gases and 30 drones, if less drones.
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On June 15 2015 21:30 Hularuns wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2015 21:04 aURONad wrote:Hi there! I'm a high gold zerg looking for the love of my... ähm.. no for help against... basically everything. That may sound a little bit too much, but I feel like I do something generally wrong/worse than my fellow gold players. As soon as I scratch the platin line MMR-Points I just loose all the time. Here just to give you a feeling of what I'm deeling with right now (green line is minimum MMR-Points needed for becoming platin): http://fs2.directupload.net/images/150615/temp/uieod73b.pngvP: 4Gate (didn't loose against it in low/mid Gold): http://sc2share.com/BPL.SC2Replay Looking at just this game. [Small things] When natural's completed transfer drones over when main is at 16/24. Your scouting overlords on this 4 player map just stay at the potential bases and don't move into position to scout and get close to the opponents base, so are just useless. [The real issue] So if you spot something like that and you haven't scouted, put a spine and spore at the front of your base. When I see it's 1 base play, I rush ling hydra with some spines at the front, because that just kicks ass. 4 gate should hit around 6:00-6:30 mark iirc (not faced it in donkey's years). You kept making drones even when you scouted that the natural was not there/super delayed. You should know a 4 gate, or some 1 base all in is coming. Being at 30 drones means you're superior economy, anymore drones you make will not come into effect for a long time and is a waste of larva and resources. When the attack came, he just a-moved in, you had 4 more roaches about 2 seconds from completion, if you microd back and pull all queens and some drones, you would've held. It is also pretty crucial to micro roaches back from zealots, this makes them commit deeper, utilise your roaches to their best ability and make it harder to escape when you win. Also, you were getting roach speed to defend an all in, you should not have wasted resources on that, personally i wouldn't have gone for the +1 attack, but if you can hold, it gives you a huge advantage going further into the game. Pull all your queens, queen transfuse on roaches or queens and their extra dps can make the hold possible. Spines and sim city with roach warren/evo chamber at the front of the base does wonders. Also since it is a 4 gate, you don't want to take 4 gasses, you want 2. Make roach ling spine. Lings are an amazing unit at defending against stalkers, and forces zealots, which roaches are amazing against. tl;dr. You made bad decisions on defending and should have stopped at 2 gases and 30 drones, if less drones.
Thank you for your analysis. I thought, that the mightier the unit, the stronger the defense. Usually I defend with roaches, but you're right. In this case I should have gone for ling/spines and pulled my first queen too.
But do I really just loose all these games because of bad decision making? I would be glad, if my other replays would be analised as good as you did with this one. After all, they are much more complex (I think).
So any further help would be greatly appreciated
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To aURONad :
Early Lings into mass roach: http://sc2share.com/BPM.SC2Replay :
Scoot with drone a fast pool.
@14 you see lings coming and you use your larvae to make drones. Huge mistake. Was better to keep it for lings.
@20 Spine. OK ! You should have protected it with drones or cancelled it. ^^^
After the attack, you did a couples of lings but you didnt use them to scout your ennemy. After that kind of cheese, you DO want to know what your opponent is up to, especially when you don't see an expend !!
You would have seen the speedling coming, and then it was GG coz' you would have wall your choke. and he would have been far behind.
Didn't see the game entirely, it was lost when your natural was destroyed anyway.
Heavy Banshee Harrass into Marines/Vikings/Banshee/Thor: http://sc2share.com/BPO.SC2Replay :
Sad Overlord is sad. Dont lose it early like this, there's nothing to see. Just look if he's expending.
@5.30 Use your lings to see the Terran wall, you may see what's coming. Moreover, you didnt see tank + marines coming out with them. Place them correctly.
@6.30 You don't know what your ennemy is doing. You have 2 lings, nothing to defend adn teching. Ballzy !
@6.53 He's in your base and its the first time you see him. Map control is important. Lings on Xel'naga would have spotted the marines.
The damages was done, you were behind, you lost. Nothing else to say :-/
MMM drops with tanks later on: http://sc2share.com/BPK.SC2Replay
@4.50 28/28. ^^
@5.00 2 gas. IMO, it's very soon.
@6.00 Already 600 minerals !! 36/36 And you already missed an inject. Without any pressure, you must macro better than that.
@6.30 2 spines. You didnt see anything. Use your mineral but use it well. Make a macro hatch. Do 3 overlords to avoid supply blocks ( you're doing roaches) or do drones, you have 7 larvae, but you're supply blocked ^^'
@7.40 Still no idea what your opponent's doing. Scout with an overlords, use your lings ...
@8.00 Here's come the drop. You have 4 lings. GG
SO :
---> DONT LOSE YOUR OVERLORDS !!! Keep them in life in early game. You'll need them !
---> Macro harder. Injections are crucials. Use your minerals ! Don't be supply blocked ! Make it your first priority. Nothing else to say about that.
---> Scoot !!! God damn it. ^^ You're teching as fuck but you don't have a single idea what's your opponent is doing. So he's crushing you coz' you don't have enough units.
Use your units. Don't let them in your base. Xel'naga towel, in front of your ennemy ...
Sacrifice an overlord at around 6.30 mark. Keep an eye on the number of gas ...
Spread them in the map ! You will be able to spot the drops. IMO, the over's speed is a very good upgrade to have map control. If you have the money ( and you do !), do it !
Sorry for bad english ! Cheer up ! You'll do great soon enough.
Wirden
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On June 16 2015 02:54 WirdenSC2 wrote:To aURONad : Early Lings into mass roach: http://sc2share.com/BPM.SC2Replay : Scoot with drone a fast pool. @14 you see lings coming and you use your larvae to make drones. Huge mistake. Was better to keep it for lings. @20 Spine. OK ! You should have protected it with drones or cancelled it. ^^^ After the attack, you did a couples of lings but you didnt use them to scout your ennemy. After that kind of cheese, you DO want to know what your opponent is up to, especially when you don't see an expend !! You would have seen the speedling coming, and then it was GG coz' you would have wall your choke. and he would have been far behind. Didn't see the game entirely, it was lost when your natural was destroyed anyway. Heavy Banshee Harrass into Marines/Vikings/Banshee/Thor: http://sc2share.com/BPO.SC2Replay : Sad Overlord is sad. Dont lose it early like this, there's nothing to see. Just look if he's expending. @5.30 Use your lings to see the Terran wall, you may see what's coming. Moreover, you didnt see tank + marines coming out with them. Place them correctly. @6.30 You don't know what your ennemy is doing. You have 2 lings, nothing to defend adn teching. Ballzy ! @6.53 He's in your base and its the first time you see him. Map control is important. Lings on Xel'naga would have spotted the marines. The damages was done, you were behind, you lost. Nothing else to say :-/ MMM drops with tanks later on: http://sc2share.com/BPK.SC2Replay@4.50 28/28. ^^ @5.00 2 gas. IMO, it's very soon. @6.00 Already 600 minerals !! 36/36 And you already missed an inject. Without any pressure, you must macro better than that. @6.30 2 spines. You didnt see anything. Use your mineral but use it well. Make a macro hatch. Do 3 overlords to avoid supply blocks ( you're doing roaches) or do drones, you have 7 larvae, but you're supply blocked ^^' @7.40 Still no idea what your opponent's doing. Scout with an overlords, use your lings ... @8.00 Here's come the drop. You have 4 lings. GG SO : ---> DONT LOSE YOUR OVERLORDS !!! Keep them in life in early game. You'll need them ! ---> Macro harder. Injections are crucials. Use your minerals ! Don't be supply blocked ! Make it your first priority. Nothing else to say about that. ---> Scoot !!! God damn it. ^^ You're teching as fuck but you don't have a single idea what's your opponent is doing. So he's crushing you coz' you don't have enough units. Use your units. Don't let them in your base. Xel'naga towel, in front of your ennemy ... Sacrifice an overlord at around 6.30 mark. Keep an eye on the number of gas ... Spread them in the map ! You will be able to spot the drops. IMO, the over's speed is a very good upgrade to have map control. If you have the money ( and you do !), do it ! Sorry for bad english ! Cheer up ! You'll do great soon enough. Wirden
Thank you a lot. I thought my macro was pretty good, so I let my guard down and did mistakes... I'll concentrate harder on that.
Scouting is obviously a huge problem of mine... You are absolutely right.
I'll keep your tipps in mind and will try to not give up
Thank you again!
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Hey guys, I need help with my ZvP matchup which is actually my worst.
I heard general rule is to not let make protoss 3rd base or at least delay it as much as you can, the thing is I suck at timings for that. I'm also not quite sure when protoss is gonna do 2-base all-in.
Second thing is I hate actual meta which is roach/hydra and vipers. Been thinking about some transitioning to mutas with roach/lings only, is it viable? Should I still go for mutas even if my opponent will scout my Spire?
I'd like to hear other variations with units because roach/hydra isn't that good vs deathball unless you can concave protoss army from each side.
Swarm host harrass with flying locusts is pretty interesting and I tried it vs terran but not sure how it gonna work vs protoss if at all and if I should do that in mid game or late only?
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On June 16 2015 20:26 EphemeralCraft wrote:
Hey guys, I need help with my ZvP matchup which is actually my worst.
I heard general rule is to not let make protoss 3rd base or at least delay it as much as you can, the thing is I suck at timings for that. I'm also not quite sure when protoss is gonna do 2-base all-in.
Second thing is I hate actual meta which is roach/hydra and vipers. Been thinking about some transitioning to mutas with roach/lings only, is it viable? Should I still go for mutas even if my opponent will scout my Spire?
I'd like to hear other variations with units because roach/hydra isn't that good vs deathball unless you can concave protoss army from each side.
Swarm host harrass with flying locusts is pretty interesting and I tried it vs terran but not sure how it gonna work vs protoss if at all and if I should do that in mid game or late only?
It is much more difficult now to cancel a fast third now with out putting yourself further behind in contrast to where the protoss is in the game. You need to sacrifice tech and larve and time. And protoss just sacrifices time, unless you are VERY lucky and kill of their sentries.
The two more favored ways to counter a fast third by protoss (around 7 min):
2 base slow roach, speedling timing,
and +1 attack upgrades before speed timing.
Both openings are meant to cancel a fast third by the protoss. However, If they are just doing a 2 base all in that hits around 10 min. You wont have the tech to spot it. This is because both openings are quite all in.
It wasn't always like this. Protoss used to take their thirds around 9 - 10 min, a 2 base tech expand build. Naniwa was amazing at this when he was top of the world a few years ago.
Back then EVERY zerg, Life, Jaedong, Hyun, DRG, Use to do 1 1 speedling timing into ultras. the 1 1 timing would perfectly counter the 9-10 min style.
What protoss have learned is if they take their third before that time, and rely on mass sentries, the zerg will not have anything out in time to stop it.
This is how the meta game of roach hydra viper came to be. If the protoss massed sentries, his tech (HT and ect) will be behind too.
We are now in a gray area of the meta game where protoss is skipping the robo and going right for HT to counter the fast vipers.
To beat the current meta game my favorite style is this: 2 base speed roach with +1, into 3 base roach hydra with +2, into 4 base roach hydra into muta. then take a 5th base.
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Thanks for reply.
To beat the current meta game my favorite style is this: 2 base speed roach with +1, into 3 base roach hydra with +2, into 4 base roach hydra into muta. then take a 5th base.
Any replays or matches of pro players transitioning to mutas from roach/hydra?
Also too bad ultras are not viable due to easy counter from protoss (immortals, archons).
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On June 16 2015 23:43 EphemeralCraft wrote:Thanks for reply. Show nested quote +To beat the current meta game my favorite style is this: 2 base speed roach with +1, into 3 base roach hydra with +2, into 4 base roach hydra into muta. then take a 5th base. Any replays or matches of pro players transitioning to mutas from roach/hydra? Also too bad ultras are not viable due to easy counter from protoss (immortals, archons).
I have a few gm vs gm replays. Ill post them when I get back home.
Ultras are good... the issue is teching to them and still being safe vs blink, immortal, gateway all ins.
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On June 16 2015 20:26 EphemeralCraft wrote:
Hey guys, I need help with my ZvP matchup which is actually my worst.
I heard general rule is to not let make protoss 3rd base or at least delay it as much as you can, the thing is I suck at timings for that. I'm also not quite sure when protoss is gonna do 2-base all-in.
Second thing is I hate actual meta which is roach/hydra and vipers. Been thinking about some transitioning to mutas with roach/lings only, is it viable? Should I still go for mutas even if my opponent will scout my Spire?
I'd like to hear other variations with units because roach/hydra isn't that good vs deathball unless you can concave protoss army from each side.
Swarm host harrass with flying locusts is pretty interesting and I tried it vs terran but not sure how it gonna work vs protoss if at all and if I should do that in mid game or late only?
I have experimented lately some speedlings/infestors builds. Since the protoss goes for a fast expend, you can deny it with your speedlings and if you're lucky, kill some sentries.
But if he's going for a 10mn all-in, I found the infests very useful because the sentries are usually stacked and can be easily picked up with infests.
Moreover, the transition speedlings/infest into ultra/crackling/infest ( into corruptors / broodlord / infest) is very smooth. Toss usually goes for tempest in late game, hence the corruptors.
The thing is that kind of build, you're pretty weak against delayed all-in with Archons at 11-12 mn since you still don't have ultras.
Don't know if it works against master / GM level, but it is doing pretty well against diamonds.
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Protoss player here. What is the thinking behind the zerg getting overlord speed or an Overseer in order to scout the base. are they lacking so much info they need to get the scout off no matter what? around the 8 or 9min this happened to me.
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On June 18 2015 00:53 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Protoss player here. What is the thinking behind the zerg getting overlord speed or an Overseer in order to scout the base. are they lacking so much info they need to get the scout off no matter what? around the 8 or 9min this happened to me.
Well, a Zerg who doesn't know what the P is doing is a dead Zerg most of the times, so I guess they're scared of your tech path
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Hi, i was watching PiG's stream today and he told his student to practice with the 'locatiation hotkey trainer' mod. I tested it and it was nice however i could not build queens to practice injects and creep spread at the same time.
Does anyone know other mods/maps to practice macro mechanics, especially camera location injects?
A mod would be best since you can practice with it on the newest maps, i know there is a map called 'creep or die' but its on daybreak so you dont really get to learn the creep pathways and overlord spots of the new maps.
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On June 18 2015 22:20 zerge wrote:
Hi, i was watching PiG's stream today and he told his student to practice with the 'locatiation hotkey trainer' mod. I tested it and it was nice however i could not build queens to practice injects and creep spread at the same time.
Does anyone know other mods/maps to practice macro mechanics, especially camera location injects?
A mod would be best since you can practice with it on the newest maps, i know there is a map called 'creep or die' but its on daybreak so you dont really get to learn the creep pathways and overlord spots of the new maps.
I learned camera hotkeys in a custom game vs easy computer. Get your three bases up and then just inject like made while you move your army back and fourth. Or while you kill your own army, so that you can use all the larva you get. Go very slow at first, getting every key stroke right, then speed up as you get more confident. Don't learn it wrong, or it'll be hard to correct.
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Diamond Zerg. How many Queens do ya'll commonly go up to for ZvT and ZvP early game?
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On June 20 2015 06:17 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Diamond Zerg. How many Queens do ya'll commonly go up to for ZvT and ZvP early game?
ZvT: with lingspeed 4 queens saving up 2 transfuses at ~7:20, 5 queens if i scout banshee
ZvP: If i want to to a timing as many queens as i have hatcheries (2-3), otherwise one queen more than i have hatcheries (3-4)
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Thnx, guess I should get moar Queens. ^.^
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EPT
