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On July 01 2015 08:21 therealkillemall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 06:54 MoosyDoosy wrote:
I'll be speaking on the assumption you're opening with the standard 3 base ZvP macro opener.
First step is learning how to defend early MSC/Zealot/Stalker pressure. Pulling Queens and making a few Lings is oftentimes enough although you have to be a bit patient while your Queens waddle their way over. Spotting the pressure early is key so be careful so that you don't wait too long or you lose your third. From there the Protoss really doesn't have much options to be aggressive really early on unless they go for 4 gate. Just keep an eye on their natural gases and send an Overlord in to make sure between 5:45 and 6:00. Otherwise you can really just drone up freely. The thing is that i dont really know if its safe to open blindly 3 hatch before pool. To do that I suppose drone scout is mandatory (in order not to die against cannon rushes). If opened 3 hatch before pool, when does the gas should be taken? Defending 3 or 4 gates without speedlings or roaches seems almost impossible to me... What do u suggest? Thanks for all the tips.
3 hatch before pool isnt necessary if youre not comfortable with it, just a normal 15 pool opening is okay. I usually take my 3rd at a normal ZvP timing (before starting second queen) and then grab a gas just before im about to place it. Should give you speedlings in time to catch most things, and you can just resaturate the gas and throw down a roach warren if you feel something fishy is going on, its not too much of an investment
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On July 01 2015 08:21 therealkillemall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 06:54 MoosyDoosy wrote:
I'll be speaking on the assumption you're opening with the standard 3 base ZvP macro opener.
First step is learning how to defend early MSC/Zealot/Stalker pressure. Pulling Queens and making a few Lings is oftentimes enough although you have to be a bit patient while your Queens waddle their way over. Spotting the pressure early is key so be careful so that you don't wait too long or you lose your third. From there the Protoss really doesn't have much options to be aggressive really early on unless they go for 4 gate. Just keep an eye on their natural gases and send an Overlord in to make sure between 5:45 and 6:00. Otherwise you can really just drone up freely. The thing is that i dont really know if its safe to open blindly 3 hatch before pool. To do that I suppose drone scout is mandatory (in order not to die against cannon rushes). If opened 3 hatch before pool, when does the gas should be taken? Defending 3 or 4 gates without speedlings or roaches seems almost impossible to me... What do u suggest? Thanks for all the tips.
The standard 3 base ZvP macro opener lets you open with either a Pool first or Hatch first, but you take your third at ~20 supply or ~4:00 min. I tend to open Hatch first so here would be an example of a supply build:
9 Overlord
15 Hatch
16 Pool
17 Overlord
20 - 2 Queen, 4 Lings
26 - Overlord
26 - 3rd Hatch
If you have any other questions feel free to ask.
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Thx to all guys. I'll take into account all your advices and try to survive this terrible map pool.
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With the new maps is anyone else having a really hard time lately?
I'm over my rage lol but I don't know, lately the meta feels like it's kind of once again felling out of Zerg's favor, the new maps are insanely drop friendly, and without the Swarm Host I feel like Protoss can kind of completely dictate the match up and it's (once again) up to Zerg to either react perfectly or die, Gateway expands especially feel very punishing because you have to teeter a very fine line between maintaining economic superiority without dying to pressure which can seemingly hit at any time and the Protoss is able to get a very good read on you through the whole game due to Momma core keeping things honest.
And by that I mean if the Protoss sees you going heavy speedling, he can warp zealots, sees you going heavy roach? Immortals and sentrys (hell even blink stalkers own roaches) and if they see you prepare for an attack with lots of units, they can just kind of freely expand and tech and then Zerg is super screwed going into the late game, Vipers just suck once Templars hit the field and Roach/Hydra is flimsy at best unless you hit a very very crisp timing.
I'm not trying to cry but if anyone could just post some general ZvP information that would be great, it used to be my best match now it's my worst and I feel very low on confidence in general, the only match I seem to do well in is ZvZ which is obviously outside of any balance.
Does Zerg seem weak lately? Or am I just terrible? Don't answer that actually, just post your tips to this beat down noob.
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On July 05 2015 05:42 Beelzebub1 wrote:
With the new maps is anyone else having a really hard time lately?
I'm over my rage lol but I don't know, lately the meta feels like it's kind of once again felling out of Zerg's favor, the new maps are insanely drop friendly, and without the Swarm Host I feel like Protoss can kind of completely dictate the match up and it's (once again) up to Zerg to either react perfectly or die, Gateway expands especially feel very punishing because you have to teeter a very fine line between maintaining economic superiority without dying to pressure which can seemingly hit at any time and the Protoss is able to get a very good read on you through the whole game due to Momma core keeping things honest.
And by that I mean if the Protoss sees you going heavy speedling, he can warp zealots, sees you going heavy roach? Immortals and sentrys (hell even blink stalkers own roaches) and if they see you prepare for an attack with lots of units, they can just kind of freely expand and tech and then Zerg is super screwed going into the late game, Vipers just suck once Templars hit the field and Roach/Hydra is flimsy at best unless you hit a very very crisp timing.
I'm not trying to cry but if anyone could just post some general ZvP information that would be great, it used to be my best match now it's my worst and I feel very low on confidence in general, the only match I seem to do well in is ZvZ which is obviously outside of any balance.
Does Zerg seem weak lately? Or am I just terrible? Don't answer that actually, just post your tips to this beat down noob.
You are not just terrible, Zerg does seem this way lately, Swarmhosts are extremely difficult to use / even get to the point where you can build them, and when you can they are only to be used as harass units essentially, I have been having a hard time on these new maps as well going the typical Roach / Hydra route,
I am honestly going to be going back to the mass spine crawler / muta ling bling style in every matchup because of the ability of being Passive / Aggressive. Although extremely unorthodox, this style can work well at times especially with all of the warpgate timings that you speak of and do happen to happen a lot on ladder.
If specific builds / styles are not working for you mix it up and try new things, do not be afraid to lose a few games in order to improve, these are the things that StarCraft is all about. In ZvT try doing more aggressive styles like Roach / Ling / Bling, and vs Protoss try going Mass mutalisk / corrupter with speedlings (dual evolution chambers) and a lot of spine crawlers to defend against the warp gate attacks, these maps are quite big so you can utilize the extra time you have before the time may hit, it may not be much but timings shouldn't hit at the same time on these maps.
All in all keep fighting and do not get discouraged, Zerg is hard at the moment, but LOTV beta ladder is coming soons so don't fret, won't have to deal with the Swarm Host's inability to be efficient much longer! 
EDIT : I will be making Video Tutorial / Guides soon to explain these things I am talking about, I am a GM Zerg on NA but I cannot explain these build orders / timings specifically, because I play through intuition.
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On July 05 2015 05:42 Beelzebub1 wrote:
With the new maps is anyone else having a really hard time lately?
I'm over my rage lol but I don't know, lately the meta feels like it's kind of once again felling out of Zerg's favor, the new maps are insanely drop friendly, and without the Swarm Host I feel like Protoss can kind of completely dictate the match up and it's (once again) up to Zerg to either react perfectly or die, Gateway expands especially feel very punishing because you have to teeter a very fine line between maintaining economic superiority without dying to pressure which can seemingly hit at any time and the Protoss is able to get a very good read on you through the whole game due to Momma core keeping things honest.
And by that I mean if the Protoss sees you going heavy speedling, he can warp zealots, sees you going heavy roach? Immortals and sentrys (hell even blink stalkers own roaches) and if they see you prepare for an attack with lots of units, they can just kind of freely expand and tech and then Zerg is super screwed going into the late game, Vipers just suck once Templars hit the field and Roach/Hydra is flimsy at best unless you hit a very very crisp timing.
I'm not trying to cry but if anyone could just post some general ZvP information that would be great, it used to be my best match now it's my worst and I feel very low on confidence in general, the only match I seem to do well in is ZvZ which is obviously outside of any balance.
Does Zerg seem weak lately? Or am I just terrible? Don't answer that actually, just post your tips to this beat down noob.
honestly, all of my ZvP wins come from random roach/hydra things that win, or roach/ling into muta into random roach hydra things, or just mass muta off of like 7 bases with ling upgrades if its cactus valley. The most common ways pros win ZvPs right now is much the same, roach/hydra timings to break 3rds and whatnot. Petraeus plays a decent lategame style with ultra queen viper or something like that i think.
Oh, and theres this
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/488045-zvp-safe-speedling-opening-roach-hydra-viper-bl
Pig going through a very standard roach hydra viper style which, in theory, is the most stable and consistent text-book thing you can do. Covers all parts of a standard ZvP macro game. I havent gotten into it personally, but thats only cus I spend my time whining about mech
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On July 05 2015 06:32 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 05:42 Beelzebub1 wrote:
With the new maps is anyone else having a really hard time lately?
I'm over my rage lol but I don't know, lately the meta feels like it's kind of once again felling out of Zerg's favor, the new maps are insanely drop friendly, and without the Swarm Host I feel like Protoss can kind of completely dictate the match up and it's (once again) up to Zerg to either react perfectly or die, Gateway expands especially feel very punishing because you have to teeter a very fine line between maintaining economic superiority without dying to pressure which can seemingly hit at any time and the Protoss is able to get a very good read on you through the whole game due to Momma core keeping things honest.
And by that I mean if the Protoss sees you going heavy speedling, he can warp zealots, sees you going heavy roach? Immortals and sentrys (hell even blink stalkers own roaches) and if they see you prepare for an attack with lots of units, they can just kind of freely expand and tech and then Zerg is super screwed going into the late game, Vipers just suck once Templars hit the field and Roach/Hydra is flimsy at best unless you hit a very very crisp timing.
I'm not trying to cry but if anyone could just post some general ZvP information that would be great, it used to be my best match now it's my worst and I feel very low on confidence in general, the only match I seem to do well in is ZvZ which is obviously outside of any balance.
Does Zerg seem weak lately? Or am I just terrible? Don't answer that actually, just post your tips to this beat down noob. You are not just terrible, Zerg does seem this way lately, Swarmhosts are extremely difficult to use / even get to the point where you can build them, and when you can they are only to be used as harass units essentially, I have been having a hard time on these new maps as well going the typical Roach / Hydra route, I am honestly going to be going back to the mass spine crawler / muta ling bling style in every matchup because of the ability of being Passive / Aggressive. Although extremely unorthodox, this style can work well at times especially with all of the warpgate timings that you speak of and do happen to happen a lot on ladder. If specific builds / styles are not working for you mix it up and try new things, do not be afraid to lose a few games in order to improve, these are the things that StarCraft is all about. In ZvT try doing more aggressive styles like Roach / Ling / Bling, and vs Protoss try going Mass mutalisk / corrupter with speedlings (dual evolution chambers) and a lot of spine crawlers to defend against the warp gate attacks, these maps are quite big so you can utilize the extra time you have before the time may hit, it may not be much but timings shouldn't hit at the same time on these maps. All in all keep fighting and do not get discouraged, Zerg is hard at the moment, but LOTV beta ladder is coming soons so don't fret, won't have to deal with the Swarm Host's inability to be efficient much longer! EDIT : I will be making Video Tutorial / Guides soon to explain these things I am talking about, I am a GM Zerg on NA but I cannot explain these build orders / timings specifically, because I play through intuition.
I appreciate you not tearing me down and telling me to learn to play, I was very very discouraged when I posted this, and don't get me wrong, there are plenty of ways to win at high diamond/low masters in all match ups, but Zerg just feels extremely punishing and downright weak in the late game vs all the other races.
What baffles me is that the Swarm Host became an extremely important part of the ZvP metagame, we needed that unit to set our own pace, keep the Protoss army moving around on their side of the map, and it was a natural transition from roach/Hydra.
Yet they nerfed the unit completely into the ground under the guise of "redesign" which is crap considering the unit is essentially worthless to build, yet none of our other units that are weak got any changes at all? Broodlords are still slow and take forever to tech to, Vipers still get instantly shut down by Templar which has become VERY common in ZvP, and The Infestor has been underpowered for well over a year now and it could be the perfect solution to dealing with Stalker/Sentry pushes which are currently just insanely strong, especially on these new choke heavy maps.
I know LOTV is in beta but HOTS feels very tough in ZvT and ZvP feels almost unplayable, and there hasn't been a word on balance since the Swarm Host nerfs. Really thinking that Zerg needs some love right now, even in Proleague and GSL Zerg doesn't look like they even stand a chance vs. Protoss most of the time unless it's Life.
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Can someone comment as to the best way to use Broodlords against Mech instead of Roach/Hydra/Viper or Ultra/Hydra/Viper?
It seems really easy to get caught in transition where you don't have enough Broodlords and you just die, so should it generally be a later game transition off viper play? Or are there specific timings that work?
What is a good number of Broodlords to get if it's a Thor heavy army? 8? 10?
It seems even when you scout someone meching there are big differences between if they are playing a viking/banshee heavy style, pushing midgame with thors and hellbats, or slow turtle max to mixed doom army with ravens and BC. Is it best to keep sending changelings to keep tabs on the composition or are there good tricks to scouting? I've sometimes died to ridiculously tank heavy comps where there were no thors and I could have just made a lot of mutas and beat the army easily.
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Hello
i was wondering how many hatcheries are you injecting in late game scenarios with 6 or more bases? i inject with the cam position method f1 + inject, f2 + injects etc because i think its the fastes way for me to inject but it starts to take longer the more bases you have. most of the time i have enought larva. just wanted to know how you guys do it
cheers
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Hi!
I'm a returning player after not having played for about 3 years and decided that I want to race switch to Zerg from Protoss (was platinum when I stopped playing). Is there some guide/build that helps you focus on the basics while still being solid and up to date? Something like the Bronze to master series FilterSC did for Terrans?
Thanks!
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On July 07 2015 22:58 SummitSC2 wrote:
Hello
i was wondering how many hatcheries are you injecting in late game scenarios with 6 or more bases? i inject with the cam position method f1 + inject, f2 + injects etc because i think its the fastes way for me to inject but it starts to take longer the more bases you have. most of the time i have enought larva. just wanted to know how you guys do it
cheers
I do camera injects as well, and I moved the camera hotkeys from the annoying F-keys to WERT4. The few abilities on WERT that conflicts I just moved down towards ASD, and I moved the 4 group hotkey to space (and use it for hatcheries, very comfortable to space-s with the thumb to get your larva). I don't think you ever need to inject on more than 5 bases, as you can't support more drones than that, and macro hatches don't need their own camera hotkey. That setup allows me to quickly inject on 5 bases without moving my hand.
Works wonders in gold at least.
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how many injects depends on the situation and unit comp, if its zvt bio i would want 4 bases injecting with at least one macro hatch but in some zvp or zvmech late game scenarios if im making something like ultras or broodlords i end up saturated with larvae and pull all but 1 or 2 queens into my army. but i prefer to add extra macro hatches anyway when i start floating thousands of minerals
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Canada11355 Posts
I use the old inject method where you put all your queens on one hotkey (or don't and select them manually) and use the 'cycle bases' hotkey, which I bound to ~/` it works just like using F1, F2 etc but without actually using a camera hotkey.
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I'm sure there's a guide for this but I can't find it. Someone please give me some tips or show me a resource that does.
I want to know how to defend 6 pool (most times+spine) with a 15 hatch into 16 pool and 17 gas(after overlord).
I've never been able to win against this, or even come close without the opponent screwing up big time.
Normally the opponent starts focusing the pool if i micro my drones well, at this point I need to stop him from killing my pool but fighting outright with my drones will most likely lose me the game. While this is going on a spine is building, all the times this has happened to me I've kept my natural but then I end up having too little minerals to make zerglings or a queen when the pool finishes(because I had to pull almost all my workers to defend the pool). On the other hand I've had to reloate my workers to the natural due to the spine being behind the mineral line (I managed to kill the lings due to his bad play). I want to know how to defend this, should I cancell my natural so I have minerals to make a queen and lings once my pool finishes or is there some other way I can defend this? I've had opponents transition and get their own natural which is why I feel that if I cancell I might be screwed anyway.
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On July 13 2015 16:21 Shuffleblade wrote:
I'm sure there's a guide for this but I can't find it. Someone please give me some tips or show me a resource that does.
I want to know how to defend 6 pool (most times+spine) with a 15 hatch into 16 pool and 17 gas(after overlord).
I've never been able to win against this, or even come close without the opponent screwing up big time.
Normally the opponent starts focusing the pool if i micro my drones well, at this point I need to stop him from killing my pool but fighting outright with my drones will most likely lose me the game. While this is going on a spine is building, all the times this has happened to me I've kept my natural but then I end up having too little minerals to make zerglings or a queen when the pool finishes(because I had to pull almost all my workers to defend the pool). On the other hand I've had to reloate my workers to the natural due to the spine being behind the mineral line (I managed to kill the lings due to his bad play). I want to know how to defend this, should I cancell my natural so I have minerals to make a queen and lings once my pool finishes or is there some other way I can defend this? I've had opponents transition and get their own natural which is why I feel that if I cancell I might be screwed anyway.
You should see a 6 pool coming before you start your gas (or pool even on most maps)
Cancel your hatch and start a pool asap keep make an overlord but keep building drones don't save up larva
when the lings reach your nat (sometimes sooner depending on map) pull all of your drones on the ramp and don't let them in the main leave no more than 2 drones mining. works most of the time for me. If you don't see the 6 pool coming (possible to avoid overlord on some maps) you are dead
Don't try it vs 9 pools or they can just wait for 10 lings and kill you
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Honestly I cant beat toss lol. I don't feel when i see protoss openers I know EXACTLY what it is. Gets twilight but then can easily take a 3rd OR attack. Makes robo same deal. Ambiguous. I'm kinda high ish masters (spent bonus pool heh) and I can beat and have beat a bunch of GM players when i knew what they were doing but I just don't seem to be able to read the builds most of the time and naturally late game lol... not really any easier the later it goes... and dont even get me started on pheonix play into a few zel attacks... that stuff....
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On July 14 2015 09:51 gameiseasy wrote:
Honestly I cant beat toss lol. I don't feel when i see protoss openers I know EXACTLY what it is. Gets twilight but then can easily take a 3rd OR attack. Makes robo same deal. Ambiguous. I'm kinda high ish masters (spent bonus pool heh) and I can beat and have beat a bunch of GM players when i knew what they were doing but I just don't seem to be able to read the builds most of the time and naturally late game lol... not really any easier the later it goes... and dont even get me started on pheonix play into a few zel attacks... that stuff....
Mid masters Zerg, I feel the exact same way, robo or twilight tech can either be a safe third or a deadly attack, and if the deadly attack works they can take a free third, if they get ready to do said deadly attack and you prepare they merely expand and tech.
Without Swarm Hosts I am trying my damn hardest to not let the game get to Templars, they hard counter Vipers and we have nothing cost efficient to trade with Colossus/Templar armies in the late game.
Not to cry too hard but Zerg just seems straight up underpowered lately, in both pro and ladder play Zergs are struggling atm
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On July 13 2015 16:21 Shuffleblade wrote:
I'm sure there's a guide for this but I can't find it. Someone please give me some tips or show me a resource that does.
I want to know how to defend 6 pool (most times+spine) with a 15 hatch into 16 pool and 17 gas(after overlord).
I've never been able to win against this, or even come close without the opponent screwing up big time.
Normally the opponent starts focusing the pool if i micro my drones well, at this point I need to stop him from killing my pool but fighting outright with my drones will most likely lose me the game. While this is going on a spine is building, all the times this has happened to me I've kept my natural but then I end up having too little minerals to make zerglings or a queen when the pool finishes(because I had to pull almost all my workers to defend the pool). On the other hand I've had to reloate my workers to the natural due to the spine being behind the mineral line (I managed to kill the lings due to his bad play). I want to know how to defend this, should I cancell my natural so I have minerals to make a queen and lings once my pool finishes or is there some other way I can defend this? I've had opponents transition and get their own natural which is why I feel that if I cancell I might be screwed anyway.
Just did a quick search on TL for "early pool" and just "pool". These threads are from 2011, but a 6 pool should be the same now as then.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/295586-belials-comprehensive-guide-to-beating-6-pool
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/282584-how-to-micro-vs-early-pools-in-zvz
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On July 14 2015 17:18 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 16:21 Shuffleblade wrote:
I'm sure there's a guide for this but I can't find it. Someone please give me some tips or show me a resource that does.
I want to know how to defend 6 pool (most times+spine) with a 15 hatch into 16 pool and 17 gas(after overlord).
I've never been able to win against this, or even come close without the opponent screwing up big time.
Normally the opponent starts focusing the pool if i micro my drones well, at this point I need to stop him from killing my pool but fighting outright with my drones will most likely lose me the game. While this is going on a spine is building, all the times this has happened to me I've kept my natural but then I end up having too little minerals to make zerglings or a queen when the pool finishes(because I had to pull almost all my workers to defend the pool). On the other hand I've had to reloate my workers to the natural due to the spine being behind the mineral line (I managed to kill the lings due to his bad play). I want to know how to defend this, should I cancell my natural so I have minerals to make a queen and lings once my pool finishes or is there some other way I can defend this? I've had opponents transition and get their own natural which is why I feel that if I cancell I might be screwed anyway. Just did a quick search on TL for "early pool" and just "pool". These threads are from 2011, but a 6 pool should be the same now as then. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/295586-belials-comprehensive-guide-to-beating-6-poolhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/282584-how-to-micro-vs-early-pools-in-zvz
Thanks Hellhound and Cascade! Will try these strats out, feel like I have more reactions to choose from and try out now too. Feels much better, thanks for the help!
Regarding v P I think we all experience the same stuggles at the moment. Luckily since I started playing again I've run into only 1 P, like 20 Z and 6-7 T. Dunno why.
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only thing that makes ZvP playable atm is that you sometimes get into that basetrade scenario with mutas where you know youre playing so gay and the anticipation of protoss bm at the end makes it all alright for a few minutes
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EPT
