On March 17 2015 01:00 EXRNaRa wrote: Hi guys! I am currently a diamond Zerg player and i always struggeld against 10P Bane. Today i had a game where i went 15P 15H and he did the 10P Bane. I defended it and won the game, but just because it interests me, was my hold fine? Where can i improve? For example if i play vs better players. He fucked it up in the end and blew 4 Banes into my hatch... What could i have done better?
Greetings and thanks if you took your time watching the replay.
Thanks!
I see you've been watching true streaming? Your pool placement is ideal for this sort of opener as it allows the queen to be tucked away and hard to surround, true said that's the spot to place the pool if going gasless, pool first or a later gas, if you're going fast speed it's better to be tucked away behind the mineral line and harder to scout. A minor detail but you pull your drone to the natural at 210 minerals, 180 is the perfect timing for most maps. Ok so you spot the lings, but the opponent still takes the long way round delaying the ling arrival time by 6 or so seconds. In watching your lings (something you need to do) you end up with 3 idle larva at 4:20, you could have 6 more lings a larva spawns every 15 seconds meaning for 45 seconds you did nothing with them a zergling takes 24 seconds meaning you could have close to 4 extra lings out. At 4:20 he gets a large bane connection obviously not ideal. I disagree with you putting the evo chamber above the spawning pool, you should have the queen filling the gap there and used it for a pull back spot for your lings. I also would have played my lings more aggressively, they sit on the top of the ramp for 11 seconds before trying to threaten the lings the earliest ling speed can be got sensibly is 4:15 so even if it was a ling speed opener not a baneling one you still have 30 seconds before it kicks in meaning be aggressive with the lings when they pop, I think you could've pressured one baneling down perhaps even two really taking the kick out of this build. All the things that happen after this are a bit moot since your opponent messes up.
The opponent shouldn't have run the one baneling in, he should have pulled it back from the queen and microed his lings correctly, he ends up having half his lings attacking a spawning pool and doing nothing and the other half running around whilst your queen hits them, he could at this point either have gone for a drone lead pushing the baneling in and correctly microing his zerglings into the drones (hold pos micro) he pulls back for no reason, he could've had your queen or lots of drones. His macro also has been bad but that's something else.
In short you did fine but not ideal since a better player on the other side could have speed and a drone lead since he doesn't manage his gas well there was a ZvZ sort of recently where someone went 10 pool bane and then scouted unfavorable build and had his gas perfectly managed so when he canceled the nest he had enough for speed.
You have so much idle larva during this that's the main thing to work on. You can still watch lings and have your hotkey for the hatch up since this sort of micro should be done by mouse not hotkey, all the best zergs in crisis management stop using hotkeys and only use mice.
I agree with banking energy on the queen for the spinecrawler but your queen position was a bit off, you could've had the queen hold with the spine and use the drone making the hatch to build a full wall on that side forcing the banes to go into the spine or go around. If he didn't screw up the bane micro he'd have won that game.
So TL;DR because I ramble and this is what comes into my mind first sort of thing, things to improve: Spend your larva consistently. Use your mouse to micro the lings rather than the hotkey, the hotkeys have a time and a place but when it's the battle don't use them. Fenner did a video on different ling micro methods, I like the pull back one the most when there's not much room between your lings and the banes, I would also practice shift clicking the wireframe of a ling onto a baneling. Be aggressive with your early lings speed can't be out and you've got the highground so banelings shouldn't be able to surprise you.
Hope you get something out of these uncoordinated ramblings.
edit: also your second overlord can go outside the front of your base and then shift up to the middle when you make your third, but that's personal preference. (since if you can see the banes morph you have more intel for your advantage)
What's the best (in your opinion) overall safe ZvZ opener? Is it 15P Gasless into 1/1 Roaches? If so you can you go into detail about building placement and changes depending on map? I like to have something indepth to measure myself against.
Also for ZvP what composition are you more likely to lean towards going into the game (not counting swarm hosts), ling+hydra or roach + hydra, or something different?
I personally like opening 14Gas / 14Pool speedling expand, get natural at 21 supply, only because I get 10 pooled, 10 pool baneling, 6 pooled, and 14/14ed a lot by other players, I like to be able to put on aggression as much as possible also because I like to be aggressive, and throw him off balance. The key is to not over produce lings, and you have to be able to control your speedlings very well to constantly put on pressure / macro back at home, kill as many workers as you can, delay him as long as possible from mining from his natural expansion (if he went for a 15hatch 14/15pool), if he went 15pool / 15hat then you may have an issue killing his hatchery, but you will still force lings and be able to snipe a few drones, and then just deviate accordingly.
ZvT question: New Diamond Zerg here. In the midgame when my 4 base economy starts to kick in, should I focus on pushing out Mutas as fast as possible or should I only make a handful (~6) and focus on getting as many Banelings as I can? Or should I be scouting something to find out whether or not to go for either option?
I'm asking this after watching how Life and soO play. Life tended to go for a heavy Ling comp against Maru in Taipei but Maru seemed to be passive for the most part before beginning to parade push. On the other hand, Flash was very aggressive against soO so I'm wondering if the difference between how the two play was because of this.
It seems to depend heavily on the map and the playstyle of your opponent. VS drop heavy Terrans and maps favouring that(Vaani) it seems to be a good idea to get that muta flock out sooner so that you can shut down drops before they arrive. If you're facing a balls to the wall terran putting constant pressure on you, delaying mutas in favour of better engegaments for you is viable. You also don't want mutas against someone turtling up(getting hundreds of turrets), if you see that your opponent is doing it thats minerals not being invested into units, so don't overcommit too early.
In the end this is one of those crisp things you really have to get a feel for. Check out your replays and try to find out when and where you should've gone for mutas instead of lings, and what your opponent did that you can scout so you know sooner.
Also remember that creep spread is very important as it helps you make that decision.
That being said, I'm on your level as well atm so I might be completely off.
On March 22 2015 04:15 MoosyDoosy wrote: I'm asking this after watching how Life and soO play. Life tended to go for a heavy Ling comp against Maru in Taipei but Maru seemed to be passive for the most part before beginning to parade push. On the other hand, Flash was very aggressive against soO so I'm wondering if the difference between how the two play was because of this.
Style difference. SoO always stays low on gas (sometimes even 5 gases on 4 bases) and relies on ton of ling/bane and very crisp injects to deflect Terran push and counter-attack after each one to deal damage/kill opponent while slowly building up the muta count. Life, on the other hand, takes every gas immediately and stays a bit more defensive, making a lot of mutas and baiting WM shots into bio to make up for lesser zergling/baneling counts. He then uses the big muta flock to harass and deal significant damage in mid/late game (eg. the OC sniping he almost always does, forcing bacetrades etc.). SoO also would very often get +1 carapace for mutas before +1 attack, to make mutas live longer as he doesn't make that many.
What ever happened to SC2John? He was the best and I miss him.
Anyway, I have a ZVT dilemma of my own now.
In most ZvT games I have no trouble gaining a large lead going into the midgame. I have my first 3 bases fully saturated and my 4th building at 10:00. I have baneling speed done and a large ling/bane force out while building up my muta flock, and 2/2 upgrades either finished or almost done when the bio/mine force first pushes out.
However, most of the time, once the Terran sets up his widow mines at the edge of my creep and pre-spreads his bio while sending in small clusters of marines to scan and clear tumors, things start falling apart for me. I get nervous and start to panic, thinking about all the times I've lost 200+ gas worth of banes to a single mine shot. I spend all of my attention and APM focusing on positioning my lings and banes and trying to send in small groups at a time to bait mine shots and slow down his progress toward my 4th base. (This gets expensive after a while of sacrificing 4-6 lings and 2-4 banes every 20 seconds or so, and only killing a couple marines and baiting a mine shot each time if I'm lucky.)
During this time, my injects start to slip, I forget to make overlords, and I don't remake creep tumors once they have been cleared (or I get my queens killed trying to replace them). As if all that isn't bad enough already, my biggest problem occurs when the terran starts closing in on my 4th base. When this happens, I start to feel like I need to hold the 4th at all costs and end up forcing a terrible engagement where I lose most or all of my ground army. Once this happens, my 4th dies and it's only a matter of a few minutes at most before I am forced to GG out.
Looking at the graphs after ZvT games is usually pretty depressing. Seeing my workers active and army values being much higher than the terran's for most of the game, then dropping like a rock all at once while the terran's lines remain the same is getting very frustrating, and in determined to change this pattern.
I think I would most benefit from having a prioritized checklist of things to focus on once the Terran sets up at the edge of my creep so that I can begin to do those things automatically instead of panicking and focusing entirely on the front line while neglecting everything else.
So my questions include:
- What tasks should I focus on once the Terran starts clearing my creep with his bio/mine parade? (in order of importance!)
- Should I use my mutalisks a to help defend -- sniping medivacs and mines-- or should I use them to counter harass or pick off reinforcements?
- How many lings should I use to counter attack?
- If the Terran manages to get his bio/mine army into a great position where engaging him will be all but impossible, (such as that ledge below my gold base on Overgrowth where he can hug the walls and constantly "elevator" up and down -_- ) should I ever consider counter-attacking with most or all of my army?
Thanks for any advice. I'm posting this from my phone, but I will try and post some replays of terran kicking my ass when I get the chance.
On March 23 2015 03:12 Frankie Teardrop wrote: What ever happened to SC2John? He was the best and I miss him.
Anyway, I have a ZVT dilemma of my own now.
In most ZvT games I have no trouble gaining a large lead going into the midgame. I have my first 3 bases fully saturated and my 4th building at 10:00. I have baneling speed done and a large ling/bane force out while building up my muta flock, and 2/2 upgrades either finished or almost done when the bio/mine force first pushes out.
However, most of the time, once the Terran sets up his widow mines at the edge of my creep and pre-spreads his bio while sending in small clusters of marines to scan and clear tumors, things start falling apart for me. I get nervous and start to panic, thinking about all the times I've lost 200+ gas worth of banes to a single mine shot. I spend all of my attention and APM focusing on positioning my lings and banes and trying to send in small groups at a time to bait mine shots and slow down his progress toward my 4th base. (This gets expensive after a while of sacrificing 4-6 lings and 2-4 banes every 20 seconds or so, and only killing a couple marines and baiting a mine shot each time if I'm lucky.)
During this time, my injects start to slip, I forget to make overlords, and I don't remake creep tumors once they have been cleared (or I get my queens killed trying to replace them). As if all that isn't bad enough already, my biggest problem occurs when the terran starts closing in on my 4th base. When this happens, I start to feel like I need to hold the 4th at all costs and end up forcing a terrible engagement where I lose most or all of my ground army. Once this happens, my 4th dies and it's only a matter of a few minutes at most before I am forced to GG out.
Looking at the graphs after ZvT games is usually pretty depressing. Seeing my workers active and army values being much higher than the terran's for most of the game, then dropping like a rock all at once while the terran's lines remain the same is getting very frustrating, and in determined to change this pattern.
I think I would most benefit from having a prioritized checklist of things to focus on once the Terran sets up at the edge of my creep so that I can begin to do those things automatically instead of panicking and focusing entirely on the front line while neglecting everything else.
So my questions include:
- What tasks should I focus on once the Terran starts clearing my creep with his bio/mine parade? (in order of importance!)
- Should I use my mutalisks a to help defend -- sniping medivacs and mines-- or should I use them to counter harass or pick off reinforcements?
- How many lings should I use to counter attack?
- If the Terran manages to get his bio/mine army into a great position where engaging him will be all but impossible, (such as that ledge below my gold base on Overgrowth where he can hug the walls and constantly "elevator" up and down -_- ) should I ever consider counter-attacking with most or all of my army?
Thanks for any advice. I'm posting this from my phone, but I will try and post some replays of terran kicking my ass when I get the chance.
I've been facing some of these issues as well and I'll try to address a few of them.
Parade Push: Once Terran starts clearing creep, your priority should be to keep spreading it out there. Always make sure you have creep Queens as engaging off creep is a very, very bad idea. It's also critical to be able to spot Marine groups or Medivac drops heading to a different expansion.
When you're sending small groups of Ling Baneling to take down the pre-split group of Marines, bring your Mutas with them. Try and snipe WM's, Medivacs, small groups of Marines, Marauders, anything as the Ling Bling group will be attracting Marine/WM fire. After a while, the Terran will realize he's losing free stuff to the Mutas and break his line to attack or retreat which is when you can crush his army and chase him back to his base. To deal with drops happening elsewhere, I keep a Ling group (~16) in my main with a few Mutas and place Spores in likely drop locations.
I also try and keep an active group of Lings (~8) out on the map near the Terran's third. When you decide you're going to take a decisive engagement, morph them into Banes and right click them into the Terran's mineral lines. When the engagement throws down, they'll either be super distracted and lose a bunch of their army or lose some SCVs. Either way you win. You can also grab another group of Lings (~16) and use them to harass the reinforcement line to distract the Terran and take a good fight.
If I need time for injects and I'm afraid the Terran will attack from his pre-split formation, I a-move a small group of Ling Bling and get the injects over with.
Otherwise, it's all about experience. Try and get a practice partner to master how to deal with parade pushes and keep your cool throughout the games. The reason your macro starts to slip is when you're panicking from the soft pressure and experience will probably help you most in the long run.
When should I get tier 3 units (ultralisk, brood lord or viper) in each match up and against which unit composition? I really like brood lords and ultralisks but they die easily sometimes.
On March 23 2015 03:12 Frankie Teardrop wrote: What ever happened to SC2John? He was the best and I miss him.
Anyway, I have a ZVT dilemma of my own now.
In most ZvT games I have no trouble gaining a large lead going into the midgame. I have my first 3 bases fully saturated and my 4th building at 10:00. I have baneling speed done and a large ling/bane force out while building up my muta flock, and 2/2 upgrades either finished or almost done when the bio/mine force first pushes out.
However, most of the time, once the Terran sets up his widow mines at the edge of my creep and pre-spreads his bio while sending in small clusters of marines to scan and clear tumors, things start falling apart for me. I get nervous and start to panic, thinking about all the times I've lost 200+ gas worth of banes to a single mine shot. I spend all of my attention and APM focusing on positioning my lings and banes and trying to send in small groups at a time to bait mine shots and slow down his progress toward my 4th base. (This gets expensive after a while of sacrificing 4-6 lings and 2-4 banes every 20 seconds or so, and only killing a couple marines and baiting a mine shot each time if I'm lucky.)
During this time, my injects start to slip, I forget to make overlords, and I don't remake creep tumors once they have been cleared (or I get my queens killed trying to replace them). As if all that isn't bad enough already, my biggest problem occurs when the terran starts closing in on my 4th base. When this happens, I start to feel like I need to hold the 4th at all costs and end up forcing a terrible engagement where I lose most or all of my ground army. Once this happens, my 4th dies and it's only a matter of a few minutes at most before I am forced to GG out.
Looking at the graphs after ZvT games is usually pretty depressing. Seeing my workers active and army values being much higher than the terran's for most of the game, then dropping like a rock all at once while the terran's lines remain the same is getting very frustrating, and in determined to change this pattern.
I think I would most benefit from having a prioritized checklist of things to focus on once the Terran sets up at the edge of my creep so that I can begin to do those things automatically instead of panicking and focusing entirely on the front line while neglecting everything else.
So my questions include:
- What tasks should I focus on once the Terran starts clearing my creep with his bio/mine parade? (in order of importance!)
- Should I use my mutalisks a to help defend -- sniping medivacs and mines-- or should I use them to counter harass or pick off reinforcements?
- How many lings should I use to counter attack?
- If the Terran manages to get his bio/mine army into a great position where engaging him will be all but impossible, (such as that ledge below my gold base on Overgrowth where he can hug the walls and constantly "elevator" up and down -_- ) should I ever consider counter-attacking with most or all of my army?
Thanks for any advice. I'm posting this from my phone, but I will try and post some replays of terran kicking my ass when I get the chance.
The way I deal with zvt midgame is to send small groups of ling/bane at his army constantly (on the edge of creep) while macro'ing. 3-4 banes and 5-6 lings with every wave, just box and attack, rinse and repeat.
While doing this, I increase the size of my muta ball and send small groups of lings or ling/bane for counterattacks. I also morph an infestation pit/hive if I feel safe. Once the muta ball is sufficiently large (~20) I'll go in and try to harass, especially putting an emphasis on trying to camp production. Personally I hate engaging with mutas onhis main army, if I'm doing this it means I'm likely behind because I didn't have enough ling/bane to keep him from pushing forward and moving onto creep. Mutas are much more effective at harass, picking off reinforcements, and camping production.
While buying time I try to go up to hive and get 3-4 ultras out with 3/3 and adrenal. After this I try to engage off of creep, but not before.
Is there some streamer popularizing mass viking/banshee in ZvT? Suddenly I'm seeing a ton of this down in metal leagues and I never saw it much before. I'm also seeing a lot more people trying to mass ravens which I attribute to the popularity of the Avilo and Ketroc streams.
I'm looking for some standard ZvZ roaches openers. Particularly gasless timings (gases, roach warren, lair, evos timings).
I've been playing mutas/lings/banes for way too long in this matchup, I'm struggling more and more to make it work as people now know how to counter it. I saw nothing on 1st page, and all the stuffs I find on google are 1year+ old...
I'm looking for some standard ZvZ roaches openers. Particularly gasless timings (gases, roach warren, lair, evos timings).
I've been playing mutas/lings/banes for way too long in this matchup, I'm struggling more and more to make it work as people now know how to counter it. I saw nothing on 1st page, and all the stuffs I find on google are 1year+ old...
I use this build, with pretty reasonable success in diamond:
It's pretty old, but it's not like basic build orders have changed much in recent times =P There are a bunch of adaptations based on how the game is going, but the basic structure of the build is a good starting point for gasless.
On March 25 2015 01:35 Falcon-sw wrote: Okay, so say my Protoss opponent opens with 6-7 phoenix. How much time do I have before they get colossus out and a hydra attack is negated?
You should generally hit between 10:30 and 11:30. The first Colossi will probably be out but he will not have Thermal Lance which means Grooved Spines Hydras will have the same range as it. Make sure to bring an Overseer to have vision of high ground so that the Colossi doesn't use that to his advantage.
On March 25 2015 01:35 Falcon-sw wrote: Okay, so say my Protoss opponent opens with 6-7 phoenix. How much time do I have before they get colossus out and a hydra attack is negated?
It's a really tricky window to hit, you also can't skimp on the spire either because often you will cancel/kill the protoss third but then they just do a collosus all in on 2 base and run you over.
I'm looking for some standard ZvZ roaches openers. Particularly gasless timings (gases, roach warren, lair, evos timings).
I've been playing mutas/lings/banes for way too long in this matchup, I'm struggling more and more to make it work as people now know how to counter it. I saw nothing on 1st page, and all the stuffs I find on google are 1year+ old...
I use this build, with pretty reasonable success in diamond:
It's pretty old, but it's not like basic build orders have changed much in recent times =P There are a bunch of adaptations based on how the game is going, but the basic structure of the build is a good starting point for gasless.
Thank you sir, this looks pretty solid.
How do you hold 10/10 lings/banes openners with no gas and hatch first though ? I guess 15 pool is probably safer on most maps...
On March 23 2015 03:12 Frankie Teardrop wrote: What ever happened to SC2John? He was the best and I miss him.
Anyway, I have a ZVT dilemma of my own now.
In most ZvT games I have no trouble gaining a large lead going into the midgame. I have my first 3 bases fully saturated and my 4th building at 10:00. I have baneling speed done and a large ling/bane force out while building up my muta flock, and 2/2 upgrades either finished or almost done when the bio/mine force first pushes out.
However, most of the time, once the Terran sets up his widow mines at the edge of my creep and pre-spreads his bio while sending in small clusters of marines to scan and clear tumors, things start falling apart for me. I get nervous and start to panic, thinking about all the times I've lost 200+ gas worth of banes to a single mine shot. I spend all of my attention and APM focusing on positioning my lings and banes and trying to send in small groups at a time to bait mine shots and slow down his progress toward my 4th base. (This gets expensive after a while of sacrificing 4-6 lings and 2-4 banes every 20 seconds or so, and only killing a couple marines and baiting a mine shot each time if I'm lucky.)
During this time, my injects start to slip, I forget to make overlords, and I don't remake creep tumors once they have been cleared (or I get my queens killed trying to replace them). As if all that isn't bad enough already, my biggest problem occurs when the terran starts closing in on my 4th base. When this happens, I start to feel like I need to hold the 4th at all costs and end up forcing a terrible engagement where I lose most or all of my ground army. Once this happens, my 4th dies and it's only a matter of a few minutes at most before I am forced to GG out.
Looking at the graphs after ZvT games is usually pretty depressing. Seeing my workers active and army values being much higher than the terran's for most of the game, then dropping like a rock all at once while the terran's lines remain the same is getting very frustrating, and in determined to change this pattern.
I think I would most benefit from having a prioritized checklist of things to focus on once the Terran sets up at the edge of my creep so that I can begin to do those things automatically instead of panicking and focusing entirely on the front line while neglecting everything else.
So my questions include:
- What tasks should I focus on once the Terran starts clearing my creep with his bio/mine parade? (in order of importance!)
- Should I use my mutalisks a to help defend -- sniping medivacs and mines-- or should I use them to counter harass or pick off reinforcements?
- How many lings should I use to counter attack?
- If the Terran manages to get his bio/mine army into a great position where engaging him will be all but impossible, (such as that ledge below my gold base on Overgrowth where he can hug the walls and constantly "elevator" up and down -_- ) should I ever consider counter-attacking with most or all of my army?
Thanks for any advice. I'm posting this from my phone, but I will try and post some replays of terran kicking my ass when I get the chance.
EPT
