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On March 12 2015 15:51 00higgo wrote:
In PvZ against a Protoss trying to macro up with only a little/no aggression when should i be taking a 4th? i always seem to struggle with my timings.
Depends on what the P does, but usually you build your 4th, when he puts down his 3rd. be aware of a fake 3rd though, so check if he saturates it, before droning your 4th up too heavily.
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26 Posts
If protoss goes 3 base blink opening, and my lair tech choice is hydra den and infestation pit, can I tech to hive as soon as infestation pit finish, even before I scout colossus transition?
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On March 13 2015 00:49 imabigboi wrote:
If protoss goes 3 base blink opening, and my lair tech choice is hydra den and infestation pit, can I tech to hive as soon as infestation pit finish, even before I scout colossus transition?
Yeah you can, as long as you can still afford all your upgrades and continuous building of hydra/ling you should be okay to hold off any blink all ins. To be safe though, I would get the infestation pit and just not tech to hive until you see a robo bay or until you've defended their attack. It's just a bit safer that way
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Hi. I just lost extremely hard to a guy who was AFK for the first minute of the game. I feeling like killing myself. Just tell me what I did wrong so I know exactly why Im shit. Thanks
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5859615
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Hey
Some short notes
very early gas and pool 14g 13p, this is a big map, and you allways want to delay your gas vs protoss. So you coulld safely go 15p 15h. You have speedlings that you dont even try to send in his base until 8min. your 3rd base is almost finished whille he is on 1 base. keep that OL alive and postion it so you can just see the edge og his nat min line. You are floating ALOT of larva. I would go 15p 15h every game, and just practice making drones while scouting. Vs toss is alot about scouting his timings. Only 1 base? hmm.. something is up. vs gate first sack your OL at 5:30 vs forge 6:30. if there is no natural at 4:30 i would be suspicious and prepare for 1base alllin. The toss makes his gates for 4gate at 5:30. so if you see 4gates beeing made at 5:30 make 3 spines and defend with slowlings, queens and slow roaches.
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On March 13 2015 15:07 Treznor wrote:
Hey
Some short notes
very early gas and pool 14g 13p, this is a big map, and you allways want to delay your gas vs protoss. So you coulld safely go 15p 15h. You have speedlings that you dont even try to send in his base until 8min. your 3rd base is almost finished whille he is on 1 base. keep that OL alive and postion it so you can just see the edge og his nat min line. You are floating ALOT of larva. I would go 15p 15h every game, and just practice making drones while scouting. Vs toss is alot about scouting his timings. Only 1 base? hmm.. something is up. vs gate first sack your OL at 5:30 vs forge 6:30. if there is no natural at 4:30 i would be suspicious and prepare for 1base alllin. The toss makes his gates for 4gate at 5:30. so if you see 4gates beeing made at 5:30 make 3 spines and defend with slowlings, queens and slow roaches.
I was told once to always go early pool since I've struggled so hard with dealing with cannon rushes in the past (pretty much never beat them, it was a free win against me). And Im floating a lot of larva cause i have no macro skills lol, one of every thing i need to work on. i also need to learn to scout ever at any point... god im so bad. These are all thing I know, or know to an extent but in game I can't think. It's all so obvious outside the game but in game i go full retard
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On March 13 2015 15:34 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 15:07 Treznor wrote:
Hey
Some short notes
very early gas and pool 14g 13p, this is a big map, and you allways want to delay your gas vs protoss. So you coulld safely go 15p 15h. You have speedlings that you dont even try to send in his base until 8min. your 3rd base is almost finished whille he is on 1 base. keep that OL alive and postion it so you can just see the edge og his nat min line. You are floating ALOT of larva. I would go 15p 15h every game, and just practice making drones while scouting. Vs toss is alot about scouting his timings. Only 1 base? hmm.. something is up. vs gate first sack your OL at 5:30 vs forge 6:30. if there is no natural at 4:30 i would be suspicious and prepare for 1base alllin. The toss makes his gates for 4gate at 5:30. so if you see 4gates beeing made at 5:30 make 3 spines and defend with slowlings, queens and slow roaches. I was told once to always go early pool since I've struggled so hard with dealing with cannon rushes in the past (pretty much never beat them, it was a free win against me). And Im floating a lot of larva cause i have no macro skills lol, one of every thing i need to work on. i also need to learn to scout ever at any point... god im so bad. These are all thing I know, or know to an extent but in game I can't think. It's all so obvious outside the game but in game i go full retard
Try playing alone on a map (start with computer oponent and remove him during countdown), and just max out asap with whatever build you want to do, then leave the game. Roach max possibly best to start with, as it is easy. Redo that until you nail it below 12 minutes. Just hit all the injects, overlords and larva, and you'll make it.
Then do that every session, before you play. Nail the roach max below 12 mins before you start playing. That will give your hands some muscle memory of proper macro, and will hopefully improve your normal game as well. If you feel that you played particularly bad some game, crappy mechanics or something, just go and do your roach max to remind your hands how it's done.
When that is getting to easy, you can do a more complicated build, or add scouting or whatever you may want to improve. But you should always hit 200/200 very soon after (within a minute at most) best possible.
With some luck, that may help both your macro mechanics and maybe help dampen the negative mental spirals.
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On March 13 2015 15:34 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 15:07 Treznor wrote:
Hey
Some short notes
very early gas and pool 14g 13p, this is a big map, and you allways want to delay your gas vs protoss. So you coulld safely go 15p 15h. You have speedlings that you dont even try to send in his base until 8min. your 3rd base is almost finished whille he is on 1 base. keep that OL alive and postion it so you can just see the edge og his nat min line. You are floating ALOT of larva. I would go 15p 15h every game, and just practice making drones while scouting. Vs toss is alot about scouting his timings. Only 1 base? hmm.. something is up. vs gate first sack your OL at 5:30 vs forge 6:30. if there is no natural at 4:30 i would be suspicious and prepare for 1base alllin. The toss makes his gates for 4gate at 5:30. so if you see 4gates beeing made at 5:30 make 3 spines and defend with slowlings, queens and slow roaches. I was told once to always go early pool since I've struggled so hard with dealing with cannon rushes in the past (pretty much never beat them, it was a free win against me). And Im floating a lot of larva cause i have no macro skills lol, one of every thing i need to work on. i also need to learn to scout ever at any point... god im so bad. These are all thing I know, or know to an extent but in game I can't think. It's all so obvious outside the game but in game i go full retard
I dont think your injects or mechanics are the problem here, to me it seemed like you dont have a (good) plan on what to do in this game.
Going gas first makes absolutely no sense unless you want to put on early pressure (before 6 minutes!) i dont think its a good build to improve on for a gold player since all the normal timings will change. If you want to be really safe go 14 pool, 15 hatch and keep your second overlord over your natural. You need to learn what to scout for and what your reaction should be for example you scout a 6 minute nexus and you just keep making drones. You need to ask yourself what he has been doing to delay his nexus by 2 minutes and react accordingly. To me it seems like you just hope your opponent is bad and that you get away without reacting to his play at all.
You are very active on this forum i'm going to guess that you watch a lot of proffessional matches. The problem with that and lower league players is that you seem to lack basic understanding of the game to profit from that, also casters will most of the time try to make it entertaining for the viewer rather than educational.
I would advise you to find players that are good teachers and learn from them PiG and neuro could be really good for you i think. Since you are seeking help for a while you probably read this before but since you apparently not follow it i say it again: find one build for each matchup practice it against the a.i. learn how your adjust your build depending on what your opponent is doing, this doesn't mean just go on ladder and keep searching games. You need to make sure before when to scout, what to look for and how to branch out from your build. All these things can be done outside the stressful ladder enviroment it's just a matter of understanding how important they are and discipling yourself to do these (for some people) rather boring tasks.
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Early pools or the mass speedling attacks are killing me! i try to do the right things
Speedlings:
2 queens to ramp
scout for no drones at nat
get bane nest asap
drone to 1.5 bases (if i see no drones at nat)
doesnt seem to matter, unless i do exactly the same build which im just about resorting to doing they just seem to get the better of what i have. most game from replay look even enough up untill they mass those fuckers
early pool:
ovie to see lings coming on the a move path to base
14pool, 15hatch nearly all zvz games
build 6 lings queen and spine, try to buy time with drones
seem to get hatch every time, do way more damage, not sure why, can never seem to hold it anymore and i dont believe i used to have an issue, i used to smile all the way to the ladder point bank every time i saw it .
Can anyone give me focus to defend both styles, but saying that i can answer my own question and just do the same build, i have an 80% win rate with it . . . . but ill feel dirty
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If you do 15pool you should be able to savw your nat from 10/9/8 pools by pulling ~4 drones with your first 6 lings.
However my favorite zvz build is 15hatch 16gas 15pool in which case you just sac the natural vs 9pool and then do a massive speedling counter attack. Fenner made a good tutorial video on it, which I'll link once I'm home
here:+ Show Spoiler +
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also you don't want to be building a spine against gasless 8-10 pools, ESPECIALLY if you're going 14 pool yourself, there's just no need for it. if you see 6-10 slow lings come across and then an expansion behind it before ~4min, it's gasless and a spine crawler is exactly the kind of overreaction your opponent wants
for early speed allins waiting to see drones/lack of drones and deciding to build a bane nest is too late. you want to check for gas timing with ovie or first 2-4 lings sac, and if you don't know what it is you get the bane nest for safety. even if you have full scout on saturation there are players who will pull 8 drones to the natural just to mindgame you
a blind spine to be super-defensive is also not awful on ladder. you can always try to get a ling scout and cancel it if you don't need it. don't forget to simcity your bane nest/spine with your natural hatch so your queen can hide in the nook
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Hi everyone!
I recently got burned out playing Protoss (platinum level), so I tried zerg a bit. Ever since... I became addicted to creep. The pure macro explosion of the race fits my style well.
So far I have been practicing on Europe so I could have an easier climb (currently in gold). I am starting to think I could stick with zerg for a while, so I need to have crisper timings.
My question is for ZvT. Is the build that is suggested in the op with the 6 roaches for defending early pressure any good? I love solid all around builds for the ladder, but is this too safe?
Here is the build in question:
+ Show Spoiler +BatesCsC wrote: "Swarm-Style" by Snute 9 Overlord 15 Hatch 17 Pool 17 Overlord Queenx2 Lingx4 (3:50) Queenx2 (4:40) Gasx2 (5:20) Hatch - 3rd (5:50) Evo x2 (6:30) Roach Warren (6:45) +1 Melee/+1 Carapace (7:00) Gas x2 (7:20) *Pool resources Roach x6 (7:45) Lair (8:10) Zergling speed + Baneling nest (8:35) Hatch - 4th (9:00) Baneling speed + Roach speed (9:45) +2 Melee/+2 Carapace (10:00) Example: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=32h10m09s
Thank you very much for your time!
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On March 14 2015 04:56 Psychotikah wrote:Hi everyone! I recently got burned out playing Protoss (platinum level), so I tried zerg a bit. Ever since... I became addicted to creep. The pure macro explosion of the race fits my style well. So far I have been practicing on Europe so I could have an easier climb (currently in gold). I am starting to think I could stick with zerg for a while, so I need to have crisper timings. My question is for ZvT. Is the build that is suggested in the op with the 6 roaches for defending early pressure any good? I love solid all around builds for the ladder, but is this too safe? Here is the build in question: + Show Spoiler +BatesCsC wrote: "Swarm-Style" by Snute 9 Overlord 15 Hatch 17 Pool 17 Overlord Queenx2 Lingx4 (3:50) Queenx2 (4:40) Gasx2 (5:20) Hatch - 3rd (5:50) Evo x2 (6:30) Roach Warren (6:45) +1 Melee/+1 Carapace (7:00) Gas x2 (7:20) *Pool resources Roach x6 (7:45) Lair (8:10) Zergling speed + Baneling nest (8:35) Hatch - 4th (9:00) Baneling speed + Roach speed (9:45) +2 Melee/+2 Carapace (10:00) Example: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=32h10m09sThank you very much for your time!
Yeah, unless you're going for a roach timing of some sort I really don't like roach openings that much. They cut into your gas and drone count by quite a bit whereas queens can do the exact same thing for a lot less resources. Just build additional queens/lings instead of roach warren/roaches and you'll find you can get a lot more utility out of them (especially if your midgame is going to be muta ling bane anyways). You should also be getting a 6:30 baneling nest in case of hellbat timings.
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On March 14 2015 04:56 Psychotikah wrote:Hi everyone! I recently got burned out playing Protoss (platinum level), so I tried zerg a bit. Ever since... I became addicted to creep. The pure macro explosion of the race fits my style well. So far I have been practicing on Europe so I could have an easier climb (currently in gold). I am starting to think I could stick with zerg for a while, so I need to have crisper timings. My question is for ZvT. Is the build that is suggested in the op with the 6 roaches for defending early pressure any good? I love solid all around builds for the ladder, but is this too safe? Here is the build in question: + Show Spoiler +BatesCsC wrote: "Swarm-Style" by Snute 9 Overlord 15 Hatch 17 Pool 17 Overlord Queenx2 Lingx4 (3:50) Queenx2 (4:40) Gasx2 (5:20) Hatch - 3rd (5:50) Evo x2 (6:30) Roach Warren (6:45) +1 Melee/+1 Carapace (7:00) Gas x2 (7:20) *Pool resources Roach x6 (7:45) Lair (8:10) Zergling speed + Baneling nest (8:35) Hatch - 4th (9:00) Baneling speed + Roach speed (9:45) +2 Melee/+2 Carapace (10:00) Example: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=32h10m09sThank you very much for your time!
That build is definitly not too safe you get a lot of drones and fast upgrades with this. However i think reapers can become a problem especially on maps where there are 2 entrances into the main. When the terran sees you are gasless he can do quite a bit of damage with 2-3 reapers and you wont be able to take your 3rd at 6 minutes. And even if you sneak it in there is ahigh chance that it gets canceled since reaper+hellion does quite abit of damage and your queens cant leave the wall. Another problem i see with this build is hellbat pushes that hit at 8 minutes or earlier when you dont have roaches out yet.
I dont think you can veto all maps that are good for reaper all time so you either need to learn a ling speed opener as well or live with the risk of getting behind to reaper play. I posted a video for such an opener on the previous page so you might want to check that out.
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On March 14 2015 05:49 mYiKane wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2015 04:56 Psychotikah wrote:Hi everyone! I recently got burned out playing Protoss (platinum level), so I tried zerg a bit. Ever since... I became addicted to creep. The pure macro explosion of the race fits my style well. So far I have been practicing on Europe so I could have an easier climb (currently in gold). I am starting to think I could stick with zerg for a while, so I need to have crisper timings. My question is for ZvT. Is the build that is suggested in the op with the 6 roaches for defending early pressure any good? I love solid all around builds for the ladder, but is this too safe? Here is the build in question: + Show Spoiler +BatesCsC wrote: "Swarm-Style" by Snute 9 Overlord 15 Hatch 17 Pool 17 Overlord Queenx2 Lingx4 (3:50) Queenx2 (4:40) Gasx2 (5:20) Hatch - 3rd (5:50) Evo x2 (6:30) Roach Warren (6:45) +1 Melee/+1 Carapace (7:00) Gas x2 (7:20) *Pool resources Roach x6 (7:45) Lair (8:10) Zergling speed + Baneling nest (8:35) Hatch - 4th (9:00) Baneling speed + Roach speed (9:45) +2 Melee/+2 Carapace (10:00) Example: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=32h10m09sThank you very much for your time! Yeah, unless you're going for a roach timing of some sort I really don't like roach openings that much. They cut into your gas and drone count by quite a bit whereas queens can do the exact same thing for a lot less resources. Just build additional queens/lings instead of roach warren/roaches and you'll find you can get a lot more utility out of them (especially if your midgame is going to be muta ling bane anyways). You should also be getting a 6:30 baneling nest in case of hellbat timings.
Damn, Thank you very much for your time Kane!
Hopefully Terrans on the ladder play standard... ling bling muta is the most fun style in this game. (way more fun than any protoss play can be.)
+ Show Spoiler +Build Order
9 – Overlord
15 – Hatchery
16 – Spawning Pool
17 – Overlord
19 – @100% Spawning Pool, start 2 Queens and 2 Zerglings
24 – Overlord
30 – @100% Queens, start 2 more Queens
36 – 2 Extractors
@100% Extractors, start 3rd Hatchery
@100 Gas, start Metabolic Boost, and 2 Evolution Chambers
@100% Evolution Chambers, start +1 Melee and +1 Carapace
Benchmark: When you start +1/+1 (@7:45ish), you should have 4 Queens and around 50 Drones
————–Above is Scarlett’s 3 Hatchery Macro Opener
@100 Gas, start your Lair and go up to 4 Assimilators
@50% Lair, go up to 6 Assimilators, start Baneling Nest and Macro Hatchery
@ 3rd base saturation, start your 4th base
@100% Lair, immediately begin Spire and Overlord Speed
@100% +1/+1 and the Baneling Nest (should finish roughly together), immediately start +2/+2 and Baneling Speed
@100% Overlord Speed, Start an Overseer, and send Overlords to excrete creep/hold position on all potential Terran 4th bases
@100% Spire start +1 Flyer Attack
@100% 4th base, immediately take and saturate gasses
Something like this could do the job I guess for standard play?
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On March 14 2015 05:55 zerge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2015 04:56 Psychotikah wrote:Hi everyone! I recently got burned out playing Protoss (platinum level), so I tried zerg a bit. Ever since... I became addicted to creep. The pure macro explosion of the race fits my style well. So far I have been practicing on Europe so I could have an easier climb (currently in gold). I am starting to think I could stick with zerg for a while, so I need to have crisper timings. My question is for ZvT. Is the build that is suggested in the op with the 6 roaches for defending early pressure any good? I love solid all around builds for the ladder, but is this too safe? Here is the build in question: + Show Spoiler +BatesCsC wrote: "Swarm-Style" by Snute 9 Overlord 15 Hatch 17 Pool 17 Overlord Queenx2 Lingx4 (3:50) Queenx2 (4:40) Gasx2 (5:20) Hatch - 3rd (5:50) Evo x2 (6:30) Roach Warren (6:45) +1 Melee/+1 Carapace (7:00) Gas x2 (7:20) *Pool resources Roach x6 (7:45) Lair (8:10) Zergling speed + Baneling nest (8:35) Hatch - 4th (9:00) Baneling speed + Roach speed (9:45) +2 Melee/+2 Carapace (10:00) Example: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=32h10m09sThank you very much for your time! That build is definitly not too safe you get a lot of drones and fast upgrades with this. However i think reapers can become a problem especially on maps where there are 2 entrances into the main. When the terran sees you are gasless he can do quite a bit of damage with 2-3 reapers and you wont be able to take your 3rd at 6 minutes. And even if you sneak it in there is ahigh chance that it gets canceled since reaper+hellion does quite abit of damage and your queens cant leave the wall. Another problem i see with this build is hellbat pushes that hit at 8 minutes or earlier when you dont have roaches out yet. I dont think you can veto all maps that are good for reaper all time so you either need to learn a ling speed opener as well or live with the risk of getting behind to reaper play. I posted a video for such an opener on the previous page so you might want to check that out.
Thanks a lot!
I will check that out.
The games I played against terrans I just winged my builds from what I saw watching pro level games. I always assumed fast speed lings was the correct choice. (Serves me very well at gold level).
That means that the second build I posted is not very safe either.
I will make sure to check out your video!
Thank you very much.
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The PiG video is a very good generic build to do vT. If you're doing the "1 build per matchup" plan this build works well. I've been doing well with it (in Platinum at least). Make sure to check the YouTube description of it. PiG has written out a good overview and corrects the lack of 6:30 baneling nest in the video, which Kane brought up.
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On March 13 2015 16:34 zerge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 15:34 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On March 13 2015 15:07 Treznor wrote:
Hey
Some short notes
very early gas and pool 14g 13p, this is a big map, and you allways want to delay your gas vs protoss. So you coulld safely go 15p 15h. You have speedlings that you dont even try to send in his base until 8min. your 3rd base is almost finished whille he is on 1 base. keep that OL alive and postion it so you can just see the edge og his nat min line. You are floating ALOT of larva. I would go 15p 15h every game, and just practice making drones while scouting. Vs toss is alot about scouting his timings. Only 1 base? hmm.. something is up. vs gate first sack your OL at 5:30 vs forge 6:30. if there is no natural at 4:30 i would be suspicious and prepare for 1base alllin. The toss makes his gates for 4gate at 5:30. so if you see 4gates beeing made at 5:30 make 3 spines and defend with slowlings, queens and slow roaches. I was told once to always go early pool since I've struggled so hard with dealing with cannon rushes in the past (pretty much never beat them, it was a free win against me). And Im floating a lot of larva cause i have no macro skills lol, one of every thing i need to work on. i also need to learn to scout ever at any point... god im so bad. These are all thing I know, or know to an extent but in game I can't think. It's all so obvious outside the game but in game i go full retard I dont think your injects or mechanics are the problem here, to me it seemed like you dont have a (good) plan on what to do in this game. Going gas first makes absolutely no sense unless you want to put on early pressure (before 6 minutes!) i dont think its a good build to improve on for a gold player since all the normal timings will change. If you want to be really safe go 14 pool, 15 hatch and keep your second overlord over your natural. You need to learn what to scout for and what your reaction should be for example you scout a 6 minute nexus and you just keep making drones. You need to ask yourself what he has been doing to delay his nexus by 2 minutes and react accordingly. To me it seems like you just hope your opponent is bad and that you get away without reacting to his play at all. You are very active on this forum i'm going to guess that you watch a lot of proffessional matches. The problem with that and lower league players is that you seem to lack basic understanding of the game to profit from that, also casters will most of the time try to make it entertaining for the viewer rather than educational. I would advise you to find players that are good teachers and learn from them PiG and neuro could be really good for you i think. Since you are seeking help for a while you probably read this before but since you apparently not follow it i say it again: find one build for each matchup practice it against the a.i. learn how your adjust your build depending on what your opponent is doing, this doesn't mean just go on ladder and keep searching games. You need to make sure before when to scout, what to look for and how to branch out from your build. All these things can be done outside the stressful ladder enviroment it's just a matter of understanding how important they are and discipling yourself to do these (for some people) rather boring tasks.
So I think I went into this game with a bit more of a plan. I'm a ling/muta player at heart so I just went for that, tryign to pump out tons of drones early game (didn't really succeed here but did better) and tryign to scout better (which I think I did). What kinds of stuff should I be trying to build on on top of this?
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5861422
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u floated a lot of minerals so a macro hatch would help. as soon as lair finishes build bane speed.
when u attacked with mutas u had extra time to do damage to the thirth. when u get up higher in gold try to look more for the +1 +2 timing.
overall a good game for a gold player!! if u keep playing like this u will be in plat soon.
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On March 14 2015 12:06 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:So I think I went into this game with a bit more of a plan. I'm a ling/muta player at heart so I just went for that, tryign to pump out tons of drones early game (didn't really succeed here but did better) and tryign to scout better (which I think I did). What kinds of stuff should I be trying to build on on top of this? http://ggtracker.com/matches/5861422 Spine before bane nest for your safety. Once you have 16 drones on minerals in main rally, your main hatch to your natural saves clicking :D Alright overall just repeat this strat vs terran everytime you play them till you get confortable with it.
(Bonus tip if you see mech make a roach warren 10 roaches and rush to broodlord infestor works suprisngly often.)
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EPT
