Im getting far too many games now where the terran is going mass Raven. Weve all seen it, rarely played against it but it happened 3 times in a row across 2 servers and was wondering if someone had done it in a show match or league somewhere.
The ravens first put down 4-6 PDDS and then spam with turrets at a location. I had 16 corruptors and the base they want for had 4 spores. How do you engage this, if ur reading and you dont know about PDD they soak up shots for a minute or so and lose energy when they deflect a projectile i waited patiently for the energy to be soaked up but hey another 2 pdds went down, so i got my ground army to try and kill up the turrets but nah.
the only way i see around this is infestors but they die to the auto turrets and cant get close enough unless i catch them at a bad spot but these users try to fly in dead space as not to get caught with that money fungal
How do i smartly deal with this before i lose 2-3 bases with more viks and ravens on the way?
On March 10 2015 22:33 StatixEx wrote: ZvT Mass raven PDD auto Turrets.
I refuse to go SH. Simple as that
Im getting far too many games now where the terran is going mass Raven. Weve all seen it, rarely played against it but it happened 3 times in a row across 2 servers and was wondering if someone had done it in a show match or league somewhere.
The ravens first put down 4-6 PDDS and then spam with turrets at a location. I had 16 corruptors and the base they want for had 4 spores. How do you engage this, if ur reading and you dont know about PDD they soak up shots for a minute or so and lose energy when they deflect a projectile i waited patiently for the energy to be soaked up but hey another 2 pdds went down, so i got my ground army to try and kill up the turrets but nah.
the only way i see around this is infestors but they die to the auto turrets and cant get close enough unless i catch them at a bad spot but these users try to fly in dead space as not to get caught with that money fungal
How do i smartly deal with this before i lose 2-3 bases with more viks and ravens on the way?
On Page 243 there is a similar question. Here is my reply:
On February 26 2015 06:23 therealkillemall wrote: Hi everyone.
Here is the thing. I have several times this build out of terran:
They block your natural with an e-bay (btw, what's the best response in that case?) and expand after that -strangely getting a planetary fortress. The next move is building ravens non stop and expanding when possible. If you're not careful enough they ninja expand. I wasnt able to deny the 3rd and eventually lost. I don't know what the best response is. Getting infestors, sure ... but when? Mutas? I dont think so. I felt really lost in that games. I wish i could attach a replay but i can't find them.
Any ideas? Thx!
(...)
Ok thx! Im having a lot of trouble against mech also. If the game goes to late game I cannot think a way to win. I am really lost against mech once they have the 3rd expansion and eventually the 4th. Mass raven just seems impossible to beat. Any suggestions? Thx.
Don't let it get to that part
Other than that. Late game mech is hard to beat. You could go SH Vipers with burrowed roach counterattacks Or you could go mass muta, never really attack his main army, "out-base" him and wear him down with harassment. whenever he moves his army (to take out one of your bases for example), go guerillia on his ass and take out small chunks of his army. I am pretty sure day9 discussed a pro example of this a while ago, but I can't find it.
If he really goes ultra heavy on Ravens, you could also try to make him seeker missile his own army. Mutas are fast enough, to fly the ones targeted (or a few more) into the ravens, makeing them kill themselfes. But that is a difficult micro move. You could also go for Ultras. They don't really care about Ravens and are not really micro dependant. Some people say, Infestors are your best bet against ravens. Sounds good, but I never managed to win that way. Maybe my infestor controll is just to weak.
In any case, try to "out-base" and out mine him when he turtles mech. That way, you could make a hughe tech switch. Go SH first, he goes tanks Hellions/bats, you switch to mass Muta.
But your best bet is, to kill him before he is maxed, otherwise it gets really hard. I hate balance discussion, but very late game, I'd say Zerg is the weakest race.
On March 10 2015 22:33 StatixEx wrote: ZvT Mass raven PDD auto Turrets.
I refuse to go SH. Simple as that
Im getting far too many games now where the terran is going mass Raven. Weve all seen it, rarely played against it but it happened 3 times in a row across 2 servers and was wondering if someone had done it in a show match or league somewhere.
The ravens first put down 4-6 PDDS and then spam with turrets at a location. I had 16 corruptors and the base they want for had 4 spores. How do you engage this, if ur reading and you dont know about PDD they soak up shots for a minute or so and lose energy when they deflect a projectile i waited patiently for the energy to be soaked up but hey another 2 pdds went down, so i got my ground army to try and kill up the turrets but nah.
the only way i see around this is infestors but they die to the auto turrets and cant get close enough unless i catch them at a bad spot but these users try to fly in dead space as not to get caught with that money fungal
How do i smartly deal with this before i lose 2-3 bases with more viks and ravens on the way?
If you dont go swarmhost your ground army should contain roaches and/or ultralisks both of which ar not affected by pdd and for the ravens you absolutly need infestors. I dont think you need a lot of static defense since your advantage compared to a swarmhost player is your mobility.
I think problem is just that all army compositions you can go instead of turtle SH, would probably be better with SH. You can go for killing all ground so you can just kill production or economy, but still some locust for taking tank shots is wanted.
I have seen zerg just going mass infestor and dropping lot of injected terrans (Where terran army is not). So your best bet is most likely that.
On March 10 2015 22:33 StatixEx wrote: ZvT Mass raven PDD auto Turrets.
I refuse to go SH. Simple as that
Im getting far too many games now where the terran is going mass Raven. Weve all seen it, rarely played against it but it happened 3 times in a row across 2 servers and was wondering if someone had done it in a show match or league somewhere.
The ravens first put down 4-6 PDDS and then spam with turrets at a location. I had 16 corruptors and the base they want for had 4 spores. How do you engage this, if ur reading and you dont know about PDD they soak up shots for a minute or so and lose energy when they deflect a projectile i waited patiently for the energy to be soaked up but hey another 2 pdds went down, so i got my ground army to try and kill up the turrets but nah.
the only way i see around this is infestors but they die to the auto turrets and cant get close enough unless i catch them at a bad spot but these users try to fly in dead space as not to get caught with that money fungal
How do i smartly deal with this before i lose 2-3 bases with more viks and ravens on the way?
Everything that everyone else said on this topic is great stuff. I'll add that although zerg does feel week vs mech late game, in reality I don't think they are. High level players that do well in this scenario appear to take many extra bases, and they focus on macro into the ultra late game, and they are very, very patient. Snute does this, usually with SH, but I saw him stream last week without using them much.
About not using SH: how about getting small quantities for strategic purposes? tripping mines, draining pdd's, killing auto turrets? Combine with nydus for base harass?
Getting infestors and looking for a money fungal chain on vikings and ravens is also an idea. Requires patience.
all the above is exactly what im doing to try and counter it all, but they destory my hatches faster than i can get at their stuff. my army seems to be on the clock the second i see what they have gone for this mass raven style. Oh well i dont mind losing 2 in 10 ZvT games when it gets to this point i guess, im not up for playing a 1.30hr+ game for the sake of a few points
ZvT question: If my 6:30 overlord scout sees a reactored factory and a naked starport and hasn't spotted an armory before dying, what is the best preparation?
It can be one of three things, right? Hellion drop (elevator style or otherwise), mine drop, or hellbat drop or hellbat rush supported by medivac, right? Assuming, as always, that there may be an armory you don't see?
Is there one set of preparation that helps against all of these? Spore in every base and a roach warren? Spore/spine in every base? What?
On March 11 2015 04:33 LordYama wrote: ZvT question: If my 6:30 overlord scout sees a reactored factory and a naked starport and hasn't spotted an armory before dying, what is the best preparation?
It can be one of three things, right? Hellion drop (elevator style or otherwise), mine drop, or hellbat drop or hellbat rush supported by medivac, right? Assuming, as always, that there may be an armory you don't see?
Is there one set of preparation that helps against all of these? Spore in every base and a roach warren? Spore/spine in every base? What?
Depends on your build :D Generally I have a spine in front and a bunch of queens when going 3 hatch, so I just make a few lings (Bane nest usually on the way) and a spore where a mine drop is most likely. Queens are good vs anything from T early game though.
On March 11 2015 03:14 StatixEx wrote: all the above is exactly what im doing to try and counter it all, but they destory my hatches faster than i can get at their stuff. my army seems to be on the clock the second i see what they have gone for this mass raven style. Oh well i dont mind losing 2 in 10 ZvT games when it gets to this point i guess, im not up for playing a 1.30hr+ game for the sake of a few points
I only recall one game that took me longer than 50 (blizz mins) :D It really doesn' take that long to kill someone with sh viper infestor corruptor.
On March 11 2015 04:33 LordYama wrote: ZvT question: If my 6:30 overlord scout sees a reactored factory and a naked starport and hasn't spotted an armory before dying, what is the best preparation?
It can be one of three things, right? Hellion drop (elevator style or otherwise), mine drop, or hellbat drop or hellbat rush supported by medivac, right? Assuming, as always, that there may be an armory you don't see?
Is there one set of preparation that helps against all of these? Spore in every base and a roach warren? Spore/spine in every base? What?
It could also mean Marine drop into the main and hellion runby into the natural.
I wouldn't prepare for a minedrop unless you saw the mines beeing produced. Widow mines take 40 seconds to recharge spore crawlers take 30 seconds to build. You can tank the shots with single drones (can turn into spore to avoid death), zerglings or queens (only one shot per queen or she dies). The biggest damage comes from pulling your drones which you need to do with or without spore crawlers unless you have zerglings in the mineral line to snipe the mines imidiatly.
Assuming you did something similar to this: (very good btw)
I would drop a bane nest imidiatly and morph 4 banes at the ramp this oneshots hellbats and hellions who try to run by. Unhotkey your banes from your zerglings so you can respond to a drop in your main without leaving your natural undefended.
If its a drop use your queens to target the medivacs, by the time this hits you should have 4 queens.
Here's my comments re: dealing with turtle into mass ravens players from a metal league perspective where I've seen it a lot more recently than I'd expect, I'm assuming the Canadian streamer Ketroc has popularized this, along with the popularity of Avilo's stream. I think Avilo's style and play are much stronger so I won't address that (mass ravens added to complete endgame composition of mech doom army with mass tank and viking). Avilo style probably requires SH style to win with any consistency once things get past mid game.
Anyway here's a metal league player's treatise on the features of the ketroc style of PF turtle into mass ravens, giant spoilered wall of text below:
In the ketroc style there is virtually no army but a handful of marines and maybe a tank until ravens appear, all gas has to go into ravens, so it depends on planetary fortress and turrets to defend.
Starport/techlabs don't appear til around 10 minutes so 6:30-7 minute tech scout will not see anything to tell the difference between this and mech. Even the starports don't distinguish between ravens and banshee or BC but them coming so late argues against banshee since you will usually have muta, or close to it, by the time they would produce units, a useful banshee rush would have starports with your earlier 6:30 scout.
Any determined attack that hits by ten minutes and either destroys the PF at natural or bypasses it will usually win (2 base muta rush, roach drop or nydus, roach bust running past PF, huge baneling bust to destroy natural and/or third). What's disastrous is to go for something like this and not commit hard enough to actually kill the PF or do huge worker damage in the main, but lose a large number of units anyway (like coming up a few banelings short of killing PF).
The other extreme is to identify that the PF natural shows there will be no units to defend or attack for a while, and go straight into 3 base immediately and quickly to 4 and 5 bases and drone massively with all gasses mining. You then have to consider that whatever you make has to either be able to kill PFs, kill ravens, or defend against autoturrets.
Rushing straight to hive/ultra is good with 5/3 upgrade, you can send your first few and destroy his third and cripple his economy. It's best to use them on offense initially rather than defense as if you defend too much you give him time to mine gas and mass more and more ravens and you will eventually lose. Ravens spells are basically useless against ultras especially when they are in smaller numbers like at the 12 minute mark so that's the time to cripple his economy, and he will not have enough of them to base trade you or kill your economy yet. If you use them on defense only and wait too long, he will get extra tanks/PF at the main and your ultras will never get in, and have landed so many PFs around the map your ultras can't kill them fast enough.
You can win the game by crippling his economy early blowing up the natural with banelings, and if you do it early it's well worth the expense. But if you stick with banelings as a method to kill PFs beyond a first time or two it becomes very inefficient gas wise and leaves you less to make gas units that can kill ravens too and you can eventually lose.
Mass muta with full attack/defense upgrades can work on such a huge economy, but you have to be skilled in muta micro and run away from seekers. You can instantly lose the game losing thousands of gas in mutas to a couple of seekers. Trying to "hug" ravens with mutas is bad unless you can micro like a GSL champ, even relatively low apm players learn to easily juke at the last second and you usually lose way more mutas than you kill ravens. Simply running away from seekers is the best bet by far. If you let him get like 30 ravens then he can send seeker after seeker and you can never get close anymore so you have to put a brake on things well before that. During most of the time I've followed ketroc's stream his apm is around 75--80 and players try to be cute "hugging" his ravens with mutas or with the targeted muta but he easily jukes them 99 percent of the time and they usually wind up losing a lot more than him, the ones who win avoid getting seekered at all. By far the most important thing is to avoid a catastrophic seeker hit losing you 30 mutas at once and the game. Since my control is not great I don't favor this unless I somehow failed to scout it properly and have already committed to mutas.
Roach/hydra especially with viper to blind PF is good to kill PFs but again you have to attack early, kill third base if possible and never allow a fourth. The more time and mining goes, the more ravens come out and those armies can die easily to mass seeker. So if you go this route you must be aggressive and kill the third and keep pressure on.
As far as killing the ravens go, aside from muta, the best options are infestor/corruptor (fungal is not affected by PDD so automatic damage is done and keeps the ravens from flying away) and hydras. Again ravens are great in long wars of attrition where both sides have a lot of economy since they can use their energy units to fight and fly away and stay alive forever - if you have gone the macro route you should initially have a lot more economy than the raven turtle, and you can afford to lose some corruptors/infestor inefficiently as long as you kill most of the ravens and aren't enduring catastrophic seekers like happens to muta all the time.
If you are doing this properly and have kept your bases mostly alive and held the raven player to two bases and non ridiculous raven numbers, you just have to be prepared for a desperation switch to mass banshee/viking as a last ditch attempt to win. Repeated scouting and some infestor/corruptor/muta should keep you safe against this and you win.
I'm only gold but I've followed ketroc's stream a lot because I find this mass raven problem very interesting and super annoying to lose to and what I've described is how people win against it. I have some gold level replays against this on ggtracker that I can post, of no interest if you are a much higher level probably, but it illustrates the basics well.
Also since the PF turtle setup looks just like someone going into mech, a lot of players go SH which in general is not a great unit comp for this, Really skilled players sometimes win with it but the SH are a slow and easy (and burrowed but detected) target for seekers, and the raven guy just repairs his PF while he kills your bases with autoturrets. Your SH die to seeker, his ravens fly around and live forever, not efficient.
Spreading overlords everywhere is good since the raven turtle usually doesn't make vikings or not enough to fight muta/corruptor. This allows you to see his ravens as they approach your bases (they won't waste energy seekering an overlord) and also spot new bases before they are planetaried/turreted.
Hi, got a problem concerning ZvT, particularly with the composition of bio and widow mines in midgame. In my last few ZvT matches the terrans went for hellion opening into bio with a lot of (15-20+) widow mines. When I try to attack natural or some other expansions there are widow mines everywhere burrowed on the path as well as in mineral lines. I try to get them detonated by sending single lings and then kill it with support of overlord but there are just so many of them and when their bio arrives to support the wm it's very hard for me to get them. When I finally manage to clear the minefield there are more to come at natural or main. Sometimes I manage almost to break this kind of defence but just almost. If the terran attacks, I got more or less the same problem - burrowed wm's just are doing to much splash damage and I am beeing pushed in the corner. I played muta/ling/bling or roach/ling/bling but I couldn't make it work. Maybe I'm to much of a noob but it would be nice if someone could give me an advice on how to handle those situations.
On March 12 2015 05:02 b3nd3r wrote: Hi, got a problem concerning ZvT, particularly with the composition of bio and widow mines in midgame. In my last few ZvT matches the terrans went for hellion opening into bio with a lot of (15-20+) widow mines. When I try to attack natural or some other expansions there are widow mines everywhere burrowed on the path as well as in mineral lines. I try to get them detonated by sending single lings and then kill it with support of overlord but there are just so many of them and when their bio arrives to support the wm it's very hard for me to get them. When I finally manage to clear the minefield there are more to come at natural or main. Sometimes I manage almost to break this kind of defence but just almost. If the terran attacks, I got more or less the same problem - burrowed wm's just are doing to much splash damage and I am beeing pushed in the corner. I played muta/ling/bling or roach/ling/bling but I couldn't make it work. Maybe I'm to much of a noob but it would be nice if someone could give me an advice on how to handle those situations.
Use a small amount of lings ( to tank marine shots) and banes ( to blow up on clumped mines which takes 3 banes) To get rid of the mines and then go at it. If T is going mass WM (like 15-20) you might want to consider not trying to counter attack with ling bane just harrass very carefully with mutas (mostly to see what T is doing) creep inject expand and go into Broodlord/infestor ling bane Keep broodlords on separate hotkey and use them shoot a wave of broodlings forward to activate all the mines, don't be impatient with engaging do it slowly if terrans loses his patience and tries to engage into you yay you win. Make sure to have some corruptors or mutas to keep you safe from drops and have spores/spines in your bases cause WM drops are gay.
On March 12 2015 05:02 b3nd3r wrote: Hi, got a problem concerning ZvT, particularly with the composition of bio and widow mines in midgame. In my last few ZvT matches the terrans went for hellion opening into bio with a lot of (15-20+) widow mines. When I try to attack natural or some other expansions there are widow mines everywhere burrowed on the path as well as in mineral lines. I try to get them detonated by sending single lings and then kill it with support of overlord but there are just so many of them and when their bio arrives to support the wm it's very hard for me to get them. When I finally manage to clear the minefield there are more to come at natural or main. Sometimes I manage almost to break this kind of defence but just almost. If the terran attacks, I got more or less the same problem - burrowed wm's just are doing to much splash damage and I am beeing pushed in the corner. I played muta/ling/bling or roach/ling/bling but I couldn't make it work. Maybe I'm to much of a noob but it would be nice if someone could give me an advice on how to handle those situations.
You have two options here: use swarmhosts, or use small packs of ling/bane in waves to bait and kill mines.
In general you shouldn't be doing committed attacks at Terran until T3 with ultras/BLs, just small harass or using a muta ball to harass (and you should be being careful with the mutas, with 2-3 accompanying overseers).
On March 11 2015 08:08 LordYama wrote: Here's my comments re: dealing with turtle into mass ravens players from a metal league perspective where I've seen it a lot more recently than I'd expect, I'm assuming the Canadian streamer Ketroc has popularized this, along with the popularity of Avilo's stream. I think Avilo's style and play are much stronger so I won't address that (mass ravens added to complete endgame composition of mech doom army with mass tank and viking). Avilo style probably requires SH style to win with any consistency once things get past mid game.
Anyway here's a metal league player's treatise on the features of the ketroc style of PF turtle into mass ravens, giant spoilered wall of text below:
In the ketroc style there is virtually no army but a handful of marines and maybe a tank until ravens appear, all gas has to go into ravens, so it depends on planetary fortress and turrets to defend.
Starport/techlabs don't appear til around 10 minutes so 6:30-7 minute tech scout will not see anything to tell the difference between this and mech. Even the starports don't distinguish between ravens and banshee or BC but them coming so late argues against banshee since you will usually have muta, or close to it, by the time they would produce units, a useful banshee rush would have starports with your earlier 6:30 scout.
Any determined attack that hits by ten minutes and either destroys the PF at natural or bypasses it will usually win (2 base muta rush, roach drop or nydus, roach bust running past PF, huge baneling bust to destroy natural and/or third). What's disastrous is to go for something like this and not commit hard enough to actually kill the PF or do huge worker damage in the main, but lose a large number of units anyway (like coming up a few banelings short of killing PF).
The other extreme is to identify that the PF natural shows there will be no units to defend or attack for a while, and go straight into 3 base immediately and quickly to 4 and 5 bases and drone massively with all gasses mining. You then have to consider that whatever you make has to either be able to kill PFs, kill ravens, or defend against autoturrets.
Rushing straight to hive/ultra is good with 5/3 upgrade, you can send your first few and destroy his third and cripple his economy. It's best to use them on offense initially rather than defense as if you defend too much you give him time to mine gas and mass more and more ravens and you will eventually lose. Ravens spells are basically useless against ultras especially when they are in smaller numbers like at the 12 minute mark so that's the time to cripple his economy, and he will not have enough of them to base trade you or kill your economy yet. If you use them on defense only and wait too long, he will get extra tanks/PF at the main and your ultras will never get in, and have landed so many PFs around the map your ultras can't kill them fast enough.
You can win the game by crippling his economy early blowing up the natural with banelings, and if you do it early it's well worth the expense. But if you stick with banelings as a method to kill PFs beyond a first time or two it becomes very inefficient gas wise and leaves you less to make gas units that can kill ravens too and you can eventually lose.
Mass muta with full attack/defense upgrades can work on such a huge economy, but you have to be skilled in muta micro and run away from seekers. You can instantly lose the game losing thousands of gas in mutas to a couple of seekers. Trying to "hug" ravens with mutas is bad unless you can micro like a GSL champ, even relatively low apm players learn to easily juke at the last second and you usually lose way more mutas than you kill ravens. Simply running away from seekers is the best bet by far. If you let him get like 30 ravens then he can send seeker after seeker and you can never get close anymore so you have to put a brake on things well before that. During most of the time I've followed ketroc's stream his apm is around 75--80 and players try to be cute "hugging" his ravens with mutas or with the targeted muta but he easily jukes them 99 percent of the time and they usually wind up losing a lot more than him, the ones who win avoid getting seekered at all. By far the most important thing is to avoid a catastrophic seeker hit losing you 30 mutas at once and the game. Since my control is not great I don't favor this unless I somehow failed to scout it properly and have already committed to mutas.
Roach/hydra especially with viper to blind PF is good to kill PFs but again you have to attack early, kill third base if possible and never allow a fourth. The more time and mining goes, the more ravens come out and those armies can die easily to mass seeker. So if you go this route you must be aggressive and kill the third and keep pressure on.
As far as killing the ravens go, aside from muta, the best options are infestor/corruptor (fungal is not affected by PDD so automatic damage is done and keeps the ravens from flying away) and hydras. Again ravens are great in long wars of attrition where both sides have a lot of economy since they can use their energy units to fight and fly away and stay alive forever - if you have gone the macro route you should initially have a lot more economy than the raven turtle, and you can afford to lose some corruptors/infestor inefficiently as long as you kill most of the ravens and aren't enduring catastrophic seekers like happens to muta all the time.
If you are doing this properly and have kept your bases mostly alive and held the raven player to two bases and non ridiculous raven numbers, you just have to be prepared for a desperation switch to mass banshee/viking as a last ditch attempt to win. Repeated scouting and some infestor/corruptor/muta should keep you safe against this and you win.
I'm only gold but I've followed ketroc's stream a lot because I find this mass raven problem very interesting and super annoying to lose to and what I've described is how people win against it. I have some gold level replays against this on ggtracker that I can post, of no interest if you are a much higher level probably, but it illustrates the basics well.
Also since the PF turtle setup looks just like someone going into mech, a lot of players go SH which in general is not a great unit comp for this, Really skilled players sometimes win with it but the SH are a slow and easy (and burrowed but detected) target for seekers, and the raven guy just repairs his PF while he kills your bases with autoturrets. Your SH die to seeker, his ravens fly around and live forever, not efficient.
Spreading overlords everywhere is good since the raven turtle usually doesn't make vikings or not enough to fight muta/corruptor. This allows you to see his ravens as they approach your bases (they won't waste energy seekering an overlord) and also spot new bases before they are planetaried/turreted.
I recently Just played/beat avilo's. If you can slow down a mech players third, (timings, pressure, creep, burrow, or all of the above) You really cut into their unit production, OR upgrades. typically its upgrades they delay so they can get enough stuff to take their 3rd with force.
If you can do this. You can have a really really epic upgrade advtange. I like to do a mass Ultra, queen, ling bane + 1 viper timing. I will rinse and repeat, depending on what units the mech player remakes.
If you can't slow down the mech player, and they get a 4th base. Then either you need to all in, Or do sh stuff.
On March 12 2015 15:51 00higgo wrote: In PvZ against a Protoss trying to macro up with only a little/no aggression when should i be taking a 4th? i always seem to struggle with my timings.
Wouldn't that depend heavily on what the toss is up to? If toss goes for some greedy third, I guess you could take a fourth without building many units at all, while if the toss does some early 2-base all-in chances are that one of you will gg before a fourth base becomes an option. Or that s what I'd do in gold...
On March 12 2015 15:51 00higgo wrote: In PvZ against a Protoss trying to macro up with only a little/no aggression when should i be taking a 4th? i always seem to struggle with my timings.
Wouldn't that depend heavily on what the toss is up to? If toss goes for some greedy third, I guess you could take a fourth without building many units at all, while if the toss does some early 2-base all-in chances are that one of you will gg before a fourth base becomes an option. Or that s what I'd do in gold...
Mostly talking quick 3rd builds, i tend to do ok against 2base all ins but im in gold too so its mostly because they are not executed well.
On March 12 2015 15:51 00higgo wrote: In PvZ against a Protoss trying to macro up with only a little/no aggression when should i be taking a 4th? i always seem to struggle with my timings.
Normally you shouldn't be thinking about taking a fourth until your opponent takes a third. Vs a 2 base all in, a macro hatch is better because of less rally time to your defense position or just adding on static defense instead (probably a better option in most cases).
On March 12 2015 15:51 00higgo wrote: In PvZ against a Protoss trying to macro up with only a little/no aggression when should i be taking a 4th? i always seem to struggle with my timings.
Normally you shouldn't be thinking about taking a fourth until your opponent takes a third. Vs a 2 base all in, a macro hatch is better because of less rally time to your defense position or just adding on static defense instead (probably a better option in most cases).
EPT
