EPTis 15 hatch 16 pool an auto loss vs 9pool? Should I think about how to respond to a 9 pool or just write that situation off?
Not at all. Econ versions can easily be won. Another shout out to Fenner who shows you how to defend:
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 221
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11B
United States188 Posts
Not at all. Econ versions can easily be won. Another shout out to Fenner who shows you how to defend: | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
is it just a matter of having lings moving around the map to identify how many hellions and what they're doing? seems like a really fine window for reacting | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On November 17 2014 09:41 brickrd wrote: how do i deal with scouting and holding 3cc armory delayed hellbat pushes? seems like my OL scouts 3cc, it dies, i play greedy, and then a thousand hellbats just walk into my natural and i lose. it's like a stargate allin but harder to scout is it just a matter of having lings moving around the map to identify how many hellions and what they're doing? seems like a really fine window for reacting You either need to have a fasts bane nest, usually before 1 1 grades. Or make a few roaches for map control (you will see the aggro, and make more roaches) | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On November 17 2014 21:55 EndOfLineTv wrote: You either need to have a fasts bane nest, usually before 1 1 grades. Or make a few roaches for map control (you will see the aggro, and make more roaches) bane nest before upgrades for 3cc into armory? this isn't a fast 2 base 22-30 SCV semi-allin hellbat push i'm talking about, this hits later. maybe i wasn't clear, i'm talking about if i don't know there's an armory on the map at all and all i have scouted is 3cc. are you saying i need to go blind bane nest before upgrades at all times in zvt or am i misunderstanding? i'm aware you need banes or roaches against hellbats but i'm talking about knowing the hellbat attack is coming and not overdroning specifically after i see a 3cc build edit: the build i'm talking about is in this thread under "the three base opening" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/461729-the-return-of-the-hellbats | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
how do i deal with scouting and holding 3cc armory delayed hellbat pushes? seems like my OL scouts 3cc, it dies, i play greedy, and then a thousand hellbats just walk into my natural and i lose. it's like a stargate allin but harder to scout I've played versus this a few times too. In my games they've brought along some marines/and a couple medivacs too. Most of the time I open up gasless into +1/1 and Roach push with a follow up +2/2 Hydra/roach and eventually Inestor/Viper if the game goes that far. So I typically do fine, but......... I'd be curious what the correct response would be when opening up with standard early gas, speed, into the typical muta/ling/bling. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On November 17 2014 08:12 11B wrote: Not at all. Econ versions can easily be won. Another shout out to Fenner who shows you how to defend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huGZilql0yA&list=PL5Z1CUjYCjREkRAdubFw8k-1p-Ejqylj6&index=2 9pool is still going to have an advantage against 15h16p17g. You can't stop the hatchery from going down without suffering huge drone losses and most probably the game. Fenner himself said that you can pull drones vs 10pool double extractor trick builds. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
9pool is still going to have an advantage against 15h16p17g. You can't stop the hatchery from going down without suffering huge drone losses and most probably the game. Fenner himself said that you can pull drones vs 10pool double extractor trick builds. Not quite sure what to say to this. Yes, indeed, Fenner says you pull drones to stop a 10 pool. He also says it's more risky and if you want to be safe simply throw down gas the second you see their lings move out and then play it out the same way. I'll add that you're still getting your gas 20+ seconds before them and have strong counter potential. So once again, if you're looking for sound advice on some counters to 9/10 pool openings simply watch the video. Fenner tells you how to go about it, his way (which he stole from Leenock). | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On November 18 2014 13:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So... once a toss has colossus out against me I just auto lose. I can't fight them at all. they massacre me no matter what I try. I don't have good enough control or apm to use vipers, and corruptors are complete shit. How do I deal with that? I mean, obviously I need to work on everything, my non-existant injects (I always have full energy queens after 15 minutes) and my scouting (also don't do this at all), but I always play reactionary and it usually works but not against colossus or protoss in general really well there are a few basic options against colossus timing based: -ling hydra timing designed to hit before thermal lance (grooved spine hydras have the same range as thermal lance colossus, and you use this timing window to do critical damage to the third, then go into roach/hydra/viper, mutas, swarm hosts, etc. -roach hydra viper timing designed to hit before templar are out in force, very straightforward, your goal is essentially to abduct the colossus and then win. at higher levels it's more complex than that but at the level i think you're on you can probably destroy protoss just by hitting the timing and spamming abducts. if you have trouble with viper control then don't put them on the same hotkey as your main army, just put them on 5 or whatever and only move them when you're doing abducts, then shiftclick them back home when they're out of energy. another good trick is to send changelings forward so you can queue the abducts before the engagement, which is another way to make viper micro simpler. although to be honest i don't think viper micro is actually that complicated, the main problem is the crappy AI when queueing orders. if you struggle to use your vipers then you might actually just be overmicroing your ground army during the fight -roach hydra corruptor timing, yes corruptors are pretty shitty but it's technically possible to still use this style. the main reason it's bad is that even if your opponent is light on void rays and you hit the timing the corruptors become instantly useless without anything to shoot and now you have 1000+ gas invested in crap, so you're not in the best place if you don't win the game. but it's not impossible, and if you really hate playing against colossus and want to just hit a timing it's about as easy and amove as zerg gets -ultralisk switch i guess? i mean, it can work, they're good against colossus if there are basically no immortals or void rays. bring queens and transfuse. vipers also nice macro based: -muta or muta/corruptor. pretty straightforward, as a zerg player you probably understand the general concept of using mutas against toss. he invests in robo tech so you invest in mutas and do as much damage as you can before he can get phoenix out. how you transition is obviously super dependent on the damage you do and when protoss secures expansions. you can go into corruptors and play skyzerg like soO or just transition into whatever while keeping an eye on whether toss is playing defensive or going for a basetrade allin -swarm hosts -melee style (some combination of ling/infestor/ultra/queen/brood lord/viper), which probably isn't ideal for you right now because you do need to control correctly and use casters well and also because it's just not that strong if you're not very good with it that's about it. the macro styles are all... well, macro styles, so it's going to be more important to work on all the shit you already know you need to work on and going in depth on them is a lot more to talk about than just countering colossus. unfortunately you're really going to need either vipers or swarm hosts at some point unless you're really going to commit to winning with ling/hydra allins or crazy shit like opening speed, denying the natural and then just doing a massive roach/ling allin. or if you're good enough with muta/corruptor to win games that way. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On November 18 2014 16:03 brickrd wrote: well there are a few basic options against colossus timing based: -ling hydra timing designed to hit before thermal lance (grooved spine hydras have the same range as thermal lance colossus, and you use this timing window to do critical damage to the third, then go into roach/hydra/viper, mutas, swarm hosts, etc. -roach hydra viper timing designed to hit before templar are out in force, very straightforward, your goal is essentially to abduct the colossus and then win. at higher levels it's more complex than that but at the level i think you're on you can probably destroy protoss just by hitting the timing and spamming abducts. if you have trouble with viper control then don't put them on the same hotkey as your main army, just put them on 5 or whatever and only move them when you're doing abducts, then shiftclick them back home when they're out of energy. another good trick is to send changelings forward so you can queue the abducts before the engagement, which is another way to make viper micro simpler. although to be honest i don't think viper micro is actually that complicated, the main problem is the crappy AI when queueing orders. if you struggle to use your vipers then you might actually just be overmicroing your ground army during the fight -roach hydra corruptor timing, yes corruptors are pretty shitty but it's technically possible to still use this style. the main reason it's bad is that even if your opponent is light on void rays and you hit the timing the corruptors become instantly useless without anything to shoot and now you have 1000+ gas invested in crap, so you're not in the best place if you don't win the game. but it's not impossible, and if you really hate playing against colossus and want to just hit a timing it's about as easy and amove as zerg gets -ultralisk switch i guess? i mean, it can work, they're good against colossus if there are basically no immortals or void rays. bring queens and transfuse. vipers also nice macro based: -muta or muta/corruptor. pretty straightforward, as a zerg player you probably understand the general concept of using mutas against toss. he invests in robo tech so you invest in mutas and do as much damage as you can before he can get phoenix out. how you transition is obviously super dependent on the damage you do and when protoss secures expansions. you can go into corruptors and play skyzerg like soO or just transition into whatever while keeping an eye on whether toss is playing defensive or going for a basetrade allin -swarm hosts -melee style (some combination of ling/infestor/ultra/queen/brood lord/viper), which probably isn't ideal for you right now because you do need to control correctly and use casters well and also because it's just not that strong if you're not very good with it that's about it. the macro styles are all... well, macro styles, so it's going to be more important to work on all the shit you already know you need to work on and going in depth on them is a lot more to talk about than just countering colossus Lol. I've talked about this before, and it's something I need to start doing if I ever want to really improve, but I don't play with timings or even builds really. They matter very little in gold league since everyone is bad and just do weird shit. Timings don't line up. And I agree that working on basics is probably more important right now. I'm almost never not floating thousands of resources lol. Im still basically terrible at everything | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On November 18 2014 16:13 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Lol. I've talked about this before, and it's something I need to start doing if I ever want to really improve, but I don't play with timings or even builds really. They matter very little in gold league since everyone is bad and just do weird shit. Timings don't line up. And I agree that working on basics is probably more important right now. I'm almost never not floating thousands of resources lol. Im still basically terrible at everything I'm also bad at SC2 generally and haven't played in a while either but I experienced the same problem vs colossi. Couldn't micro good enough or have good enough forsight to set up decent flanks. What did I do? Counterattack.The P can't move out with his colossi that will doom you if you keep threatening to counterattack with either roaches or preferably speedlings. This will both scout what he is doing and buy you time to build up corrupters so you can win a fight against him when he moves out. Zerg is reactionary, buying time is essential. Corrupters is actually the best thing we have to stop colossi pre hive. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On November 18 2014 17:37 Shuffleblade wrote: I'm also bad at SC2 generally and haven't played in a while either but I experienced the same problem vs colossi. Couldn't micro good enough or have good enough forsight to set up decent flanks. What did I do? Counterattack.The P can't move out with his colossi that will doom you if you keep threatening to counterattack with either roaches or preferably speedlings. This will both scout what he is doing and buy you time to build up corrupters so you can win a fight against him when he moves out. Zerg is reactionary, buying time is essential. Corrupters is actually the best thing we have to stop colossi pre hive. Hmmm. Not a bad idea. I can build extra speedlings with all the extra money I always have! usually protoss at this level have lots of cannons to protect against that kind of thing though (since they also have tons of extra resources to build stuff) | ||
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velvex
Germany226 Posts
On November 17 2014 22:08 brickrd wrote: bane nest before upgrades for 3cc into armory? this isn't a fast 2 base 22-30 SCV semi-allin hellbat push i'm talking about, this hits later. maybe i wasn't clear, i'm talking about if i don't know there's an armory on the map at all and all i have scouted is 3cc. are you saying i need to go blind bane nest before upgrades at all times in zvt or am i misunderstanding? i'm aware you need banes or roaches against hellbats but i'm talking about knowing the hellbat attack is coming and not overdroning specifically after i see a 3cc build edit: the build i'm talking about is in this thread under "the three base opening" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/461729-the-return-of-the-hellbats If you have very good micro, you can apparently hold hellbat pushes with only queens and lings: http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/comments/2mk57e/how_to_defend_hellbat_timings_with_just_queenling/ This might be harder if the Terran has marines instead of banshees, though. | ||
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
On November 19 2014 03:14 velvex wrote: If you have very good micro, you can apparently hold hellbat pushes with only queens and lings: http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/comments/2mk57e/how_to_defend_hellbat_timings_with_just_queenling/ This might be harder if the Terran has marines instead of banshees, though. you can, and should tbh, hold "normal" hellbat pushes with just queens, but this one doesn't seem normal - it hits later and with more stuff, you definitely need something more not sure how you scout it, though | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
Just thought I'd ask, since, well #DreamPool... | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
When playing versus a gas opener the idea is to drone harder and defend with Overlord vision and "some" burrowed banelings. I'll usually have 1 burrowed at my ramp (Queen block still good) and 4-5 zerglings hotkeyed in other locations like my mineral line and a little in front of my expo (2 spaced out works well) where they'll be attacking from. Versus a gas opener I'll also pre burrow 2 banelings (1 each side of hatchery) at my 3rd. Generally I've found I'm able to get my 3rd up and running faster/safer and have more drones than my opponent. After their first attack and baneling mine they can't, or won't want to attack you again anytime soon. Versus gasless I'll get my 3rd up even quicker and burrow 2 banelings (at my 3rd in case he gets some speedlings) while also burrowing 2 banelings at their 3rd (not blocking it but so I can kill it). My wall at my natural and a few zerglings in case I need to morph is enough. Again, the idea is to be greedy as hell and make as many drones as possible. Problems I've run into are execution and reaction time. When I scout and have great vision it's REALLY powerful. When I lose focus and don't quite keep up with my mini-map awareness I run into some problems. Some game ending, but not always. At any rate, this is something I've been messing around with for a bit and wanted some discussion on it. Ok, I'm just going to do a query here: does anyone have a safe, surefire way to hold the immortal sentry allin (Parting perfect execution, leaves @ 8:50) WITHOUT relying on the luck of roach/ling? Anything reactionary. Assuming you are opening pool + hatch + speed. + Show Spoiler +Why would you open with speed? Here's my variation to stop Immortal pushes: Just do any variation of Hatch/Pool/Hatch or Pool/Hatch/Hatch with 2xgas at 5:25ish and 2xgas at 7:00, 1xgas at 7:30. Start Lair at 6:30, speed 7:00, +1 missile 7:30, NLT 8:00 Den and drone all the way up to around 72-74 supply (62-64 drones16x3, 5x3....with 3/4 queens few lings scout/vision). You should hit the drone/supply benchmark around 7:35-7:50. From this point you make nothing but Speedlings until around 9:00 at which point you make non stop Hydra's until your gas is to zero. You'll have accumulated right around 650g by 9:20 following the timings above which gets you Hydra Range by 9:45 with 10 actual Hydra's. So by 9:50 you're army will look like 10 Ranged Hydra and 40+ speedlings. You should be able to use your speedlings to counter/delay/waste some FFs in the process allowing you to get out and extra 3-4 Hydra and 10+ speedlings (10:20). Then you're sitting pretty with 3 base map control vs 2 base with a very low unit count. | ||
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DERASTAT
Germany99 Posts
On November 19 2014 08:02 11B wrote: When playing Z vs Z and opting for a safer 14 pool into Hatch or 14 pool into gas/hatch has anyone experimented with going 1st 100g burrow, next 50g baneling nest and just skip speed? I've been messing around with it a bit but was curious if anyone else has been doing this? When playing versus a gas opener the idea is to drone harder and defend with Overlord vision and "some" burrowed banelings. I'll usually have 1 burrowed at my ramp (Queen block still good) and 4-5 zerglings hotkeyed in other locations like my mineral line and a little in front of my expo (2 spaced out works well) where they'll be attacking from. Versus a gas opener I'll also pre burrow 2 banelings (1 each side of hatchery) at my 3rd. Generally I've found I'm able to get my 3rd up and running faster/safer and have more drones than my opponent. After their first attack and baneling mine they can't, or won't want to attack you again anytime soon. Versus gasless I'll get my 3rd up even quicker and burrow 2 banelings while also burrowing 2 banelings at their 3rd (not blocking it but so I can kill it). My wall at my natural and a few zerglings in case I need to morph is enough. Again, the idea is to be greedy as hell and make as many drones as possible. Problems I've run into are execution and reaction time. When I scout and have great vision it's REALLY powerful. When I lose focus and don't quite keep up with my mini-map awareness I run into some problems. Some game ending, but not always. At any rate, this is something I've been messing around with for a bit and wanted some discussion on it. WTF i dont see how you can use burrowed baenlings in ZvZ Lings are too fast and there is no way you can run them into his mineral Line and the 4 Banelings you con Morph with 100 gas are way better in defending. standart ZvZ is 15 hatch 16 Pool oder 15 Pool 15 Hatch. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
WTF i dont see how you can use burrowed baenlings in ZvZ Lings are too fast and there is no way you can run them into his mineral Line and the 4 Banelings you con Morph with 100 gas are way better in defending. standart ZvZ is 15 hatch 16 Pool oder 15 Pool 15 Hatch. Thanks for the discussion and response. However, did you actually read my whole post? I don't EVER say run banelings into his mineral line. And I say the whole purpose of the strategy is to use them to DEFEND strategic points so you can mass drone. Greed is the point, i.e., I'm not even getting many banelings at all, zerglings are hotkeys for IF my opponent is moving out. The only time I use them offensively is when I scout them going gasless, at which point I burrow 2 banelings at his future 3rd base which you use to kill/deny/lose 300$ minerals. And in regards to your standard z vs z comment......I don't see a 1 drone variation of Pool into Hatch in any way a Bad thing. It's a personal preference of 1 drone. So what? When not opening 15H/16P I opt for 14P/16H. | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
On November 19 2014 08:02 11B wrote: When playing Z vs Z and opting for a safer 14 pool into Hatch or 14 pool into gas/hatch has anyone experimented with going 1st 100g burrow, next 50g baneling nest and just skip speed? I've been messing around with it a bit but was curious if anyone else has been doing this? When playing versus a gas opener the idea is to drone harder and defend with Overlord vision and "some" burrowed banelings. I'll usually have 1 burrowed at my ramp (Queen block still good) and 4-5 zerglings hotkeyed in other locations like my mineral line and a little in front of my expo (2 spaced out works well) where they'll be attacking from. Versus a gas opener I'll also pre burrow 2 banelings (1 each side of hatchery) at my 3rd. Generally I've found I'm able to get my 3rd up and running faster/safer and have more drones than my opponent. After their first attack and baneling mine they can't, or won't want to attack you again anytime soon. Versus gasless I'll get my 3rd up even quicker and burrow 2 banelings (at my 3rd in case he gets some speedlings) while also burrowing 2 banelings at their 3rd (not blocking it but so I can kill it). My wall at my natural and a few zerglings in case I need to morph is enough. Again, the idea is to be greedy as hell and make as many drones as possible. Problems I've run into are execution and reaction time. When I scout and have great vision it's REALLY powerful. When I lose focus and don't quite keep up with my mini-map awareness I run into some problems. Some game ending, but not always. At any rate, this is something I've been messing around with for a bit and wanted some discussion on it. + Show Spoiler + Why would you open with speed? Here's my variation to stop Immortal pushes: Just do any variation of Hatch/Pool/Hatch or Pool/Hatch/Hatch with 2xgas at 5:25ish and 2xgas at 7:00, 1xgas at 7:30. Start Lair at 6:30, speed 7:00, +1 missile 7:30, NLT 8:00 Den and drone all the way up to around 72-74 supply (62-64 drones16x3, 5x3....with 3/4 queens few lings scout/vision). You should hit the drone/supply benchmark around 7:35-7:50. From this point you make nothing but Speedlings until around 9:00 at which point you make non stop Hydra's until your gas is to zero. You'll have accumulated right around 650g by 9:20 following the timings above which gets you Hydra Range by 9:45 with 10 actual Hydra's. So by 9:50 you're army will look like 10 Ranged Hydra and 40+ speedlings. You should be able to use your speedlings to counter/delay/waste some FFs in the process allowing you to get out and extra 3-4 Hydra and 10+ speedlings (10:20). Then you're sitting pretty with 3 base map control vs 2 base with a very low unit count. Thanks. I like to get the early speed because of gate-core timings and to stop early thirds. Similar to +1/+1 soO lings, but not quite. That's about the same timings I have with my variation of ling/hydra (with the early speed thrown in there as well) but I don't bother to get any melee/carapace upgrades since my end game is always muta/corruptor and any gas thrown into ground upgrades feels wasted (instead of the +1 ranged I get OV speed instead, has a lot of interesting applications -> especially for hydra timings -> creep highways!). On 2P maps it's pretty rough. Guess it all depends on how well you can delay with your lings/buy time. I'm talking about Ohana, here T_T. Was more of looking for alternative "switches" I could use, assuming that my normal game-plan is ling/hydra/corruptor into air zerg. While it's not pretty to use a switch into a completely different unit comp, I'm fine with it as long as I can get to my late game goal. From what I saw of Life in WCS he was able to stop a San-gate using nothing but queens/slow lings? Any thoughts on that? If so I'd be totally down to skip early speed (although I'd lose my pressure potential). --> I'm fine with having to delay with lings in order to reliably make such a strategy work. Sometimes, that's just how the cookie crumbles, but on smaller maps 2P it's really unforgiving...which is why I feel like it might just be better to use a switch, is all (seriously, though, try the OV speed creep highway strat, it's totally ridiculous. Just practice binding all your OVs to a single hotkey like 9/0 so you can have them all drop creep once lair finishes. It's also great for rapid pushing with queens!). | ||
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