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@ Qwyn
Well the SoulTrain version usually opens Nexus into forge so I don't see the need for the early speed. I think it's better to save the drone, save mining time, and get your 3rd up quicker with max emphasis on hitting injects/drones. Opening up soO style with 32 drones on minerals/3gas into a later 5:20 3rd and round of injects on lings right after is good vs MSC expand but imo not ideal vs any variation of FFE.
And with the ling/Hydra timing above you hit really hard just after 10:30 (usually 144-148 supply) which will, IMO, typically outright kill any 3rd. We've all seen top professional Protoss die (and defend  ) when using this so it's definitely a valid timing even at Masters/GM (imo). Any league below should be an absolute steam roll.
But I do like the Muta/Corruptor switch that you do! I've seen Scarlett destroying people with that :D. And i regards to Life at WCS Finals, yeah, Queens are strong! Even MC was saying that at the HSC-x tourney lol. Looks to give you a bit lower drone count and slower tech but easily holds SanGate. My micro is only "average" so for me I would probably go a different route.
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Can I just say, and this might not be appropriate for this thread but whatever, they way a lot of you talk about the game on here, it makes me insanely jealous that I'll never be smart enough to even approach your guys' level. So many of you have this wonderful depth of knowledge that's just incredible to see. Sorry if this is weird or whatever, Im a weird person though so I can get away with saying weird stuff I guess 
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I'm in Diamond and I'm currently having alot of troubles ZvT. While my ZvZ and ZvP Winrates are at about 80%, my ZvT dropped to an awful 30%.
Now I noticed that i am quite unsure about how to engage the common 4M-army. I don't have that much trouble dealing with smaller numbers around the 9-12 minute mark but get increasingly worse the higher supply the terran army gets. I'm always trying to lead with smaller packs of zerglings to trigger mines, but it seems terrans got way better at controling their shit since the few months break 
Also whats the timing for a 2 base hellbat/marine push? Got rekt by that sometimes pretty hard. Is a Baneling nest started at 7-7:30 sufficient?
I like to stay on Muta-Ling-Bane for a long time. When would you guys say is the latest time to switch to hive-tech? As the 3-3 plays a big role in me losing the fights I think.
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On November 20 2014 08:47 Avatar- wrote:I'm in Diamond and I'm currently having alot of troubles ZvT. While my ZvZ and ZvP Winrates are at about 80%, my ZvT dropped to an awful 30%. Now I noticed that i am quite unsure about how to engage the common 4M-army. I don't have that much trouble dealing with smaller numbers around the 9-12 minute mark but get increasingly worse the higher supply the terran army gets. I'm always trying to lead with smaller packs of zerglings to trigger mines, but it seems terrans got way better at controling their shit since the few months break Also whats the timing for a 2 base hellbat/marine push? Got rekt by that sometimes pretty hard. Is a Baneling nest started at 7-7:30 sufficient? I like to stay on Muta-Ling-Bane for a long time. When would you guys say is the latest time to switch to hive-tech? As the 3-3 plays a big role in me losing the fights I think.
woah dude thats some seriously twisted winrates :L ( rofl same thing happened to me last season only my vP and vZ stayed at like 60% :L)
honestly a lot of engaging seems to coming from as mandy directions + as wide an arc as possible ( to avoid clumping) and then manually trying to split smaller groups of lings into the mines during the fight ( or hug his reens for some cheeky freindly fire ) though its a lot more difficult than it sounds on paper :L
honestly im really bad at the engagements though so i tend to go for the 80+ 4 base drone style to give me a bit of padding and room to trade in-effeciently (which helps a lot vs bio+hellbat+thor aswell since engages always seems in-effecient there)
you could also try learning to play roach hydra, its a lot less controll reliant and opening roaches makes you really safe earlygame anyways ( so you can be lazy with the scouting ) but on the flip side its very timing push orientated(you prettymuch have to kill/deny a 3rd once you hit 2/2), and you need good creepspread and ovie spread because your armies much slower at dealing with drops
its also nice to mix things up a bit once in a while and your injects dont have to be as good XD
it really depends on how committed it is or wether hes going 3cc behind etc, honestly the safest way to play is if you dont spot a normal timed 3rd cc or anything unusual ( or you cant scout) drop your bane nest just before your upgrades and make sure you have a decent chunk of lings so you can emergency morph banes ( so like10-14ish), target medivac with queens and its a relativley easy hold
that or you could open roaches and literally laugh in the face of anybody who attempts hellbat shenanigans
as for the hive timing, honestly it just depends on what style you like playing and wether or not you get breathing room, if the terran slacks of the pressure go for 3/3 asap since it huuugley helps, if you think the extra round of banes will help you deny a 4th etc then by all means stay on 2/2, i tend to tunnel vision too hard on the 2/2 though because im prettybad XD
someone posted this a while back http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15007261155
really helped me with my ZvT , might be worth a read for you too
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yea hive timing is 100% game dependent in zvt. it's kind of a catch 22 sometimes because often if you can "safely" go hive then you're also in a good position armywise to just morph banelings and try to kill him instead. usually when i choose hive it's on a map like deadwing or akilon where terran can get entrenched really well with buffed mine/thor and it's more likely you'll run into a shitty fight and reset the game if you try to force it.
as for baneling timing vs 2 base hellbats, i just throw it down immediately as soon as i feel hellbats are coming unless i feel ive figured it out SUPER SUPER early just from an overlord poke in which case sometimes i squeeze 100 gas into lair first which can enable a pretty powerful speed bane timing later on after you hold. it's also useful to remember that you can start upgrades and then cancel them for baneling money in an emergency or delayed attack
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Thanks for the answers!
Also, the link to the battle.net forums was really helpful (didn't think I would ever say that). Didn't finish reading yet, but hat I take away from it (and from your answers) for myself is: Make less Mutas (I like to go for a lot of them, but apparently thors got buffed), make more Drones until ~12:00 and then go fuck him up
I guess the engagements are a thing of practice, was kinda good when i stopped playing just gotta get back in to the groove
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I feel like hive is veeery overrated in ZvT, going for it costs you ~60 banes (those are numbers I heard once, so maybe it's a bit more or less) and they don't really care about upgrades
I mean, sure, go for it if he tries to turtle after being insanely behind, but I feel like most of the time 3/3 upgrades aren't really worth it - you can go for them only if you're ahead, and if that happens, you could just kinda make 60 banes and roll over the Terran
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Hey, I suppose it's a lot to ask, but I just played, what felt like, a really strong game. Roughly everything I wanted to happen happened in game, and I felt largely in control of my units. I was wondering if anyone of you would be willing to watch the replay and point out any major mistakes you see, or just any comments overall?http://drop.sc/389260
http://drop.sc/389260
I figure this is the type of game where my gameplay issues would be ones that I'm unaware of, compared to the usual games where the personal mistakes are super glaring and obvious.
Other than the kind of weird opening (I drone scouted and couldn't find his gateway at all, so I thought I was getting proxy'd) does anyone notice any big mistakes, or anything I could optimize, or any comments at all?
I'm also not totally sure if it's the right place to ask, but I'm trying to work on my personal mechanics, and I'm sure I have bad habits that I don't know about. Thanks in advance to anyone who reads or watches <3
I feel like hive is veeery overrated in ZvT, going for it costs you ~60 banes (those are numbers I heard once, so maybe it's a bit more or less) and they don't really care about upgrades With 100 gas for infestation pit and 150 for hive, and it doesn't cost any overall economy, so what would cause it to result in anything more than 10 fewer banelings?
Not that that's an insignificant number, just a lot less than 60 haha.
3/3 added in, and I believe that's 34 banelings worth of gas. Is there something I'm overlooking?
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On November 20 2014 19:25 theunabletable wrote:Hey, I suppose it's a lot to ask, but I just played, what felt like, a really strong game. Roughly everything I wanted to happen happened in game, and I felt largely in control of my units. I was wondering if anyone of you would be willing to watch the replay and point out any major mistakes you see, or just any comments overall?http://drop.sc/389260 http://drop.sc/389260I figure this is the type of game where my gameplay issues would be ones that I'm unaware of, compared to the usual games where the personal mistakes are super glaring and obvious. Other than the kind of weird opening (I drone scouted and couldn't find his gateway at all, so I thought I was getting proxy'd) does anyone notice any big mistakes, or anything I could optimize, or any comments at all? I'm also not totally sure if it's the right place to ask, but I'm trying to work on my personal mechanics, and I'm sure I have bad habits that I don't know about. Thanks in advance to anyone who reads or watches <3 Show nested quote + I feel like hive is veeery overrated in ZvT, going for it costs you ~60 banes (those are numbers I heard once, so maybe it's a bit more or less) and they don't really care about upgrades With 100 gas for infestation pit and 150 for hive, and it doesn't cost any overall economy, so what would cause it to result in anything more than 10 fewer banelings? Not that that's an insignificant number, just a lot less than 60 haha. 3/3 added in, and I believe that's 34 banelings worth of gas. Is there something I'm overlooking?
by "going hive" I don't mean "starting hive", it's relatively cheap
BUT if you want to start 3/3, adrenal glance and also go ultras it's 1300 gas, which is 52 banelings (or, without adrenal glance, 1100)
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Hey, I suppose it's a lot to ask, but I just played, what felt like, a really strong game. Roughly everything I wanted to happen happened in game, and I felt largely in control of my units. I was wondering if anyone of you would be willing to watch the replay and point out any major mistakes you see, or just any comments overall?
Welcome to the forums!! I only watched half the game so I'll comment up to the 8:00 mark . Awesome drone stacking to start the game off with! After that I focused mainly on your macro and saw that you were behind the norms at 6:00, 7:00, and 8:00 minutes. So I'd say you need to work on your macro, especially since you didn't get harassed or attacked by anything more than a MSC (which did nothing to ya). Since you opened 3 Hatches I'll give you some benchmarks for a 3 base opener (not being harassed or set back).
- 6:00 benchmark is right around 42+ supply (you were at 36).
- 7:00 benchmark is right around 52+ supply with 44+ drones (you were at 44 supply with 35 drones).
- 8:00 benchmark should be 70+ supply with 60+ drones. (you were at 60 supply with 36 drones). A near perfect game with no harass will allow you to reach 86+ supply with 65+drones and 12-14 more almost finished).
So yea, just refine your macro and try to hit those benchmarks. A more specific tip would be the obvious : Immediately start Queens when your spawning pool is done (you waited 10s) and make sure to keep up on your injects. You waited 15 seconds to inject on your very 1st cycle after your already delayed Queens hatched. That put you 30s behind the norm and about 10 supply down. And if you're going for early speed be sure to take those drones off gas at 100 and starts speed asap. No need to lose mining time and delay your upgrade ^.
Hope that helps you a bit. And once again, welcome to the forums man.
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by "going hive" I don't mean "starting hive", it's relatively cheap
BUT if you want to start 3/3, adrenal glance and also go ultras it's 1300 gas, which is 52 banelings (or, without adrenal glance, 1100) Ahh I see; yeah fair enough.
So yea, just refine your macro and try to hit those benchmarks. A more specific tip would be the obvious : Immediately start Queens when your spawning pool is done (you waited 10s) and make sure to keep up on your injects. You waited 15 seconds to inject on your very 1st cycle after your already delayed Queens hatched. That put you 30s behind the norm and about 10 supply down. And if you're going for early speed be sure to take those drones off gas at 100 and starts speed asap. No need to lose mining time and delay your upgrade ^. This is great haha, thanks a bunch for those optimal bunchmarks. In ZvP and ZvZ I usually feel pretty lost with what to go for consistently, and just kind of play it by ear. It's mostly fine, but an issue is that I have a lot of trouble telling, given whatever strategy I've gone for, how far from optimal I've done it.
So that makes sense for ZvP. What is a normal timing for a safe but fast third, one that works with those benchmarks?
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against forge or against nexus first with no 3hatch you take your third at about 4 minutes. instead of continuing queen production after the first one finishes you just expand. if you opened speed you can expand anywhere from about 5-6 minutes, 6 is more typical
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On November 20 2014 20:59 Alchemik wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 19:25 theunabletable wrote:Hey, I suppose it's a lot to ask, but I just played, what felt like, a really strong game. Roughly everything I wanted to happen happened in game, and I felt largely in control of my units. I was wondering if anyone of you would be willing to watch the replay and point out any major mistakes you see, or just any comments overall?http://drop.sc/389260 http://drop.sc/389260I figure this is the type of game where my gameplay issues would be ones that I'm unaware of, compared to the usual games where the personal mistakes are super glaring and obvious. Other than the kind of weird opening (I drone scouted and couldn't find his gateway at all, so I thought I was getting proxy'd) does anyone notice any big mistakes, or anything I could optimize, or any comments at all? I'm also not totally sure if it's the right place to ask, but I'm trying to work on my personal mechanics, and I'm sure I have bad habits that I don't know about. Thanks in advance to anyone who reads or watches <3 I feel like hive is veeery overrated in ZvT, going for it costs you ~60 banes (those are numbers I heard once, so maybe it's a bit more or less) and they don't really care about upgrades With 100 gas for infestation pit and 150 for hive, and it doesn't cost any overall economy, so what would cause it to result in anything more than 10 fewer banelings? Not that that's an insignificant number, just a lot less than 60 haha. 3/3 added in, and I believe that's 34 banelings worth of gas. Is there something I'm overlooking? by "going hive" I don't mean "starting hive", it's relatively cheap BUT if you want to start 3/3, adrenal glance and also go ultras it's 1300 gas, which is 52 banelings (or, without adrenal glance, 1100)
If you are playing "standard" (Ling bling Muta)
If the terran is on 3 base, and just keepings going push after push. Don't get hive. Keep expanding, and making banes, and starve them out.
You can go hive if you had an amazing engagement, or if they get a 4th base.
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against forge or against nexus first with no 3hatch you take your third at about 4 minutes. instead of continuing queen production after the first one finishes you just expand. if you opened speed you can expand anywhere from about 5-6 minutes, 6 is more typical This is solid advice imo. + Show Spoiler +Although @ theunabletable, keep in mind there's quite a bit of personal twist on all these builds. I.e., people like Vortix, even when going gasless typically opens up with 4 Queens and takes his 3rd at 5:20, while I prefer 3rd at 30/36 4:30 and 3rd Queen at natural (lays creep walks to 3rd - Zero missed injects all game and No idle larvae,i.e. you have the cash).
And to answer your safer 3rd question/benchmarks. My preference is.........Any variation of Hatch/Pool or Pool/Hatch, a quick gas (2:45-50), followed up with speed, a 3rd Queen and then at 5:20 3rd Hatchery. I like to have 10-16 speedlings on the map before 6:00 to deny/kill any MSC/zealot/probe pylon pressure and then just drone up as usual. So the benchmarks above, for supply will be the same. The only difference will be your drone count. If you made 12 lings you'll be 6 drones short at each benchmark. I'm usually at 37-39 drones at 7:00 and 53-55 at 8:00. I still like to drone up to 3 base saturation on minerals and 5 gas though. 4 gas good for unit flood but bad for tech. 6 gas good for unit/plus tech but slower 4th. 5 gas is a nice balance of units/tech/and quicker 4th base (8:30-10:00).
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On November 20 2014 06:20 11B wrote:@ Qwyn Well the SoulTrain version usually opens Nexus into forge so I don't see the need for the early speed. I think it's better to save the drone, save mining time, and get your 3rd up quicker with max emphasis on hitting injects/drones. Opening up soO style with 32 drones on minerals/3gas into a later 5:20 3rd and round of injects on lings right after is good vs MSC expand but imo not ideal vs any variation of FFE. And with the ling/Hydra timing above you hit really hard just after 10:30 (usually 144-148 supply) which will, IMO, typically outright kill any 3rd. We've all seen top professional Protoss die (and defend ) when using this so it's definitely a valid timing even at Masters/GM (imo). Any league below should be an absolute steam roll. But I do like the Muta/Corruptor switch that you do! I've seen Scarlett destroying people with that :D. And i regards to Life at WCS Finals, yeah, Queens are strong! Even MC was saying that at the HSC-x tourney lol. Looks to give you a bit lower drone count and slower tech but easily holds SanGate. My micro is only "average" so for me I would probably go a different route.
Well it's just that on 4P maps often I have no idea whether or not the Protoss opened gate-core or NF/FFE, so that's why I get early speed regardless. On 2P maps where my OV can get there in time or I can drone scout, then sure, I'll skip the speed when I can. I'd love to play gasless for as long as possible if I could.
Against gate-core or FFE both the early speed is really helpful in denying super fast thirds and securing the map; gives me a lot of comfort to choose how I want to respond next. So in that regard I'm glad I do get it.
Am looking into those VODs. Easy denial of SanGate/4 gate timings without early speed seems like a great plus to me. I don't really like early roach triggers; the response feels icky...
Ling/hydra/corruptor into muta corruptor is a great build I feel. It's extremely lean and has a lot of damage potential and you can go straight into corruptor/muta without any gas wasted in ground upgrades (always a plus).
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On November 22 2014 06:47 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 06:20 11B wrote:@ Qwyn Well the SoulTrain version usually opens Nexus into forge so I don't see the need for the early speed. I think it's better to save the drone, save mining time, and get your 3rd up quicker with max emphasis on hitting injects/drones. Opening up soO style with 32 drones on minerals/3gas into a later 5:20 3rd and round of injects on lings right after is good vs MSC expand but imo not ideal vs any variation of FFE. And with the ling/Hydra timing above you hit really hard just after 10:30 (usually 144-148 supply) which will, IMO, typically outright kill any 3rd. We've all seen top professional Protoss die (and defend ) when using this so it's definitely a valid timing even at Masters/GM (imo). Any league below should be an absolute steam roll. But I do like the Muta/Corruptor switch that you do! I've seen Scarlett destroying people with that :D. And i regards to Life at WCS Finals, yeah, Queens are strong! Even MC was saying that at the HSC-x tourney lol. Looks to give you a bit lower drone count and slower tech but easily holds SanGate. My micro is only "average" so for me I would probably go a different route. Well it's just that on 4P maps often I have no idea whether or not the Protoss opened gate-core or NF/FFE, so that's why I get early speed regardless. On 2P maps where my OV can get there in time or I can drone scout, then sure, I'll skip the speed when I can. I'd love to play gasless for as long as possible if I could. Against gate-core or FFE both the early speed is really helpful in denying super fast thirds and securing the map; gives me a lot of comfort to choose how I want to respond next. So in that regard I'm glad I do get it. Am looking into those VODs. Easy denial of SanGate/4 gate timings without early speed seems like a great plus to me. I don't really like early roach triggers; the response feels icky... Ling/hydra/corruptor into muta corruptor is a great build I feel. It's extremely lean and has a lot of damage potential and you can go straight into corruptor/muta without any gas wasted in ground upgrades (always a plus).
If you open up 14pool, you have a very high chance of getting your lings (2-4) into the protoss main. Seeing his gas count with his nex on the way can tell you 90% of what the protoss can and will do. If you see only 1 gas (run around a bit in this main) If he is still on 1 gas, he is likely going to 2 base 4 gate you, or take a greedy third. If he has fast two gas. You can drone hard, and not have to worry about any big attack until 7 min.
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I just cant beat protoss ;(. No matter what they do its a-move all over me.
Btw I was just thinking of muta,ling,bane,blinding cloud lategame vs terran. When the terran splits you throw down blinding clouds everywhere so they start to stack and your banes should theoretically get some nice hits . Ling,bane,muta just isn't enough to win you the game if the terran is macroing well. With vipers you could continue pushing even without banelings. Maybe?
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On November 23 2014 00:43 Jusba wrote:I just cant beat protoss ;(. No matter what they do its a-move all over me. Btw I was just thinking of muta,ling,bane,blinding cloud lategame vs terran. When the terran splits you throw down blinding clouds everywhere so they start to stack and your banes should theoretically get some nice hits . Ling,bane,muta just isn't enough to win you the game if the terran is macroing well. With vipers you could continue pushing even without banelings. Maybe?
in the late-game, you just want to add few (REMEMBER: FEW, DON'T GO FULL VIOLET) ultras and, depending on the map, swarm hosts.
LBM is really really good, but, as someone pointed out earlier, you need something else if you can't get a good engagment when he tries to take his 4th
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On November 23 2014 00:43 Jusba wrote:I just cant beat protoss ;(. No matter what they do its a-move all over me. Btw I was just thinking of muta,ling,bane,blinding cloud lategame vs terran. When the terran splits you throw down blinding clouds everywhere so they start to stack and your banes should theoretically get some nice hits . Ling,bane,muta just isn't enough to win you the game if the terran is macroing well. With vipers you could continue pushing even without banelings. Maybe?
What is your build(s)
How much supply do you have by 8 min.
What is your tech choices?
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What are general strategies to use on Xel'Naga caverns vs T and P?
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EPT
