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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On November 12 2014 05:09 KtJ wrote: How does the new map pool affect zerg? All the maps are zerg friendly except for one: akalon wastes. xel naga can also be rough if you are not cheesing, due to the far away thirds. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On November 10 2014 06:00 SC2John wrote: You can't hold 3 bases against a 1 base attack from Protoss, so either cancel or sacrifice the 3rd base (if it's down already), get gas, and start making lots of queens and a spine crawler at the natural. If you can hold the initial pressure until speed is out, you'll be in pretty good shape. If you feel confident enough, a small counterattack of like 4-6 lings will completely destroy the push too. Xinoe provided some good advice too, though I can't vouch 100% if you should go speed or roaches versus certain things. If you DON'T triple hatch before pool, I would always say just get roaches and save your drones for mining, but since you're already behind doing triple hatch before pool, I'm not sure it's a great idea to try to add roaches when queens/spines can hold quite well without gas. But that's just my logic...I don't usually go triple hatch before pool, and I really only do it blindly, so I don't really run into this scenario often. I'm still trying to figure this out as well, but if you do a normal roach build correctly, you should have about 20 roaches ready to go as his first mutas are popping, and they can generally do a lot of damage to the mineral line/queens. Behind that, you can either go queen/infestor (seems to be more popular) or hydras to push the muta counterattacks away. I highly recommend small roach counterattacks (4-6 roaches) whenever the mutas are out of position to try and keep him as busy as possible. I think it's important to feign pressure at some point and keep the muta player spending money on things like banelings and static defense instead of teching straight up to ultralisks. Meanwhile, you should be looking to get maxed out on roach/hydra/queen/infestor and doing a slow doom push (making sure you don't get baneling flanked). If your macro is on point and you didn't take too much damage from the mutalisks earlier on, this generally works. The end game doom push is the correct one. Now how do we get there? You will have two base saturation and a third bases popping up. You need to do your speed roach +1 +1 (or +1) timing, as his mutas are popping, on the way to your bases. Hyun likes to be on the way to your base at the 9 min mark (he has a highly accelerated single evo speed roach timing.) The roach speed will be done when he is half way across the map. During this attack, you need to make drones and spores for you third base (and spores every where else). Mean while you need to snipe the other z's third, and then pressure the natural. When your roaches are nearly dead (usually when the third is sniped and you are on the way to their natural) you need to make more roaches for their counter attack, and yet another timing from you. The second timing is meant to re snipe their third, while you complete your third saturation, and get infestor hydra tech. ( now you max doom push) | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
I've been opening 15p/15h but some of these wall offs are ridiculous. By the time my lings get down to the natural they've already sim-city'd the cannon in. Since we have an old map pool you might as well resort back to an older pool into hatch opener!  The following build gets you 6 lings to your expo nlt 3:30 on most maps. - 9 overlord - 14 pool at 1:50 (drone waiting at 150 minerals) - 15 hatch at 2:35 (now at 14 supply) - 3x sets of zerglings rallied to expo - extractor trick, Queen - overlord at 19/18 A few timings to think about: If Protoss goes 12 forge and then scouts straight to you into 2x pylon and 1 cannon (sim city) the cannon will finish at 3:45ish, give or take a few seconds. With 1, or 2 drones max, assisting and delaying till Lings pop you're in great shape. If they send a probe to your base before they start making their forge then be sure to stop, or at least delay them walling in your ramp. This will let you get your first 6 lings out to counter, as well as starting your expo somewhere else with the potential to defend (lings out). So given the 1st situation you keep your natural hatch, force them to cancel 1 or 2 cannons, they lose 2 pylons, plus they have to add more buildings and cannons to stop your counter. Way, WAY ahead for Zerg. 2nd situation still cost them 350, while delaying both their and our expo. Imo, Zerg ahead again, albeit not as far. Alternatively, if you drone scout, you can always throw down offensive hatcheries in 3 different places. Their natural, their wall, or in their main. They all have fun potential in delaying their expo, mining time (pull lots of probes), or straight up killing them. Hell, you can even double Hatch them if you want. Throw down one at their wall or natural, plus one in their main (or 2 in their main, different sides - CatZ style). With no gateway units they'll have a hard time defending everywhere and keeping a decent economy. So IMO, if you know how to play and react vs cannon rushes it's almost an auto win. | ||
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Ghaleon109
United States15 Posts
I started when Akilon Wastes was in its last season of the map pool.. so I haven't played on most of these maps before. I think I have a better idea of where the wall offs are now behind mineral lines. Also, I'm not all that great with cannon rushes to begin with, so this definitely helps. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
9 o/l 13 pool 15 Hatch 15 6 zerglings 17 Extractor trick + queen Overlord into droning. Overlord and queen are interchangable, I prefer the queen first for a slight supply block, no larvae gets wasted. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On November 13 2014 08:21 ThePastor wrote: The other option is 13 pool into hatch. I managed to master it so you lose 0 lava, get 3 sets of early lings to defend cannon cheese and or put some nice pressure on a greedy toss. I am not at home so cannot get my b/o book but I am fairly sure it goes like this? 9 o/l 13 pool 15 Hatch 15 6 zerglings 17 Extractor trick + queen Overlord into droning. Overlord and queen are interchangable, I prefer the queen first for a slight supply block, no larvae gets wasted. Yes that is correct. You can also make 2 drones, or 2 lings, instead of making 3 lings. This will allow you to make your first queen at, or before 3min. (which is the same as 14/15 pool with excellent drone stacking). This will allow you to have close to the same eco as 15p 16h. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On November 14 2014 00:11 EndOfLineTv wrote: Yes that is correct. You can also make 2 drones, or 2 lings, instead of making 3 lings. This will allow you to make your first queen at, or before 3min. (which is the same as 14/15 pool with excellent drone stacking). This will allow you to have close to the same eco as 15p 16h. The nice thing is a lot of Protoss will misread the pool timing. I will often get straight up wins off this with a fortunate o/lord scout. Also they will commit to cannon rushes that you just crush and then get a massive win. | ||
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DERASTAT
Germany99 Posts
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11B
United States188 Posts
One short Question: In ZvT the Gasless opener is it save against evrything,because i tend to die against Mass Reaper agaist it and cant really take my third. Mass Reaper? I don't see too much of that myself. And yes, IMO, it is safe vs pretty much anything early. But sometimes getting your 3rd can be a bit challenging (no speed), especially when they are further away and you don't have enough creep spread yet. Try and keep your initial 6 lings all alive and use them, in conjunction with 2-3 Queens and try to secure your 3rd. If you can't it's not the end of the world. Here's Hyuns +1/+1 gasless opener. Thanks go out to F3nner for his awesom work. | ||
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Asgorath
United States15 Posts
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5592319 I've been doing this in every game where they open with a Forge, due to the fact that I get Cannon rushed nearly 100% of the time now. Still got a few things to fine tune, but non-stop Queens and Roaches from the proxy Hatch with some static defense is pretty much an auto-win. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On November 13 2014 06:11 EndOfLineTv wrote: All the maps are zerg friendly except for one: akalon wastes. xel naga can also be rough if you are not cheesing, due to the far away thirds. No, that's wrong. Xel naga is just bad. T/P just open safe and you're done. Sure cheese is strong on xel naga but vs those who play in it as if they're playing in a modern map. Also daybreak is still good but not nearly as good as it was before since BL/Infestor isn't a thing anymore and you could sit in the middle of the map threatening the opponent. Ohana is also terrible vs protoss (old but never obsolete immortal sentry is very very hard to stop) and mech. CK is markedly P favoured in ZvP (easy to defend third). | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On November 15 2014 00:10 Karpfen wrote: No, that's wrong. Xel naga is just bad. T/P just open safe and you're done. Sure cheese is strong on xel naga but vs those who play in it as if they're playing in a modern map. Also daybreak is still good but not nearly as good as it was before since BL/Infestor isn't a thing anymore and you could sit in the middle of the map threatening the opponent. Ohana is also terrible vs protoss (old but never obsolete immortal sentry is very very hard to stop) and mech. CK is markedly P favoured in ZvP (easy to defend third). We will have to agree to disagree. I have no problems with the maps except for xel naga and akalon. Ohana, vs immortal sentry, roach ling with fast hydra works just fine. on CK, you can attack from two different places. and if they get a ultra fast third 6-7:30 min. you can get vipers, Or whatever tech you choose. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 15 2014 00:23 EndOfLineTv wrote: We will have to agree to disagree. I have no problems with the maps except for xel naga and akalon. Ohana, vs immortal sentry, roach ling with fast hydra works just fine. on CK, you can attack from two different places. and if they get a ultra fast third 6-7:30 min. you can get vipers, Or whatever tech you choose. I agree with hating on Akilon. That map is the bane of my existence. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On November 15 2014 11:47 SC2John wrote: I agree with hating on Akilon. That map is the bane of my existence. I find it hilarious that I have always had a really good winning ratio on Akilon. I don't know why, every talks about how horrid it is for zerg, I just simply love playing on it. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On November 16 2014 04:44 ThePastor wrote: I find it hilarious that I have always had a really good winning ratio on Akilon. I don't know why, every talks about how horrid it is for zerg, I just simply love playing on it. Mass speedling is good vs P there. Baneling busts vs T/P/Z are very good due to the very wide ramp. So if you go for those strategies a lot and people can't hold them it might be the reason. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On November 16 2014 08:04 Karpfen wrote: Mass speedling is good vs P there. Baneling busts vs T/P/Z are very good due to the very wide ramp. So if you go for those strategies a lot and people can't hold them it might be the reason. I generally just play macro | ||
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SorrowShine
698 Posts
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
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MatthewRock
Poland11 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On November 17 2014 04:32 MatthewRock wrote: Hello. I haven't played SC2 for over a year now. All I remember is that I could play some BOs, and the most popular one was Stephano Style for ZvP. I stopped playing soon after HotS got releeased, so I don't really know any BOs, nor new units. Is there somewhere a decent site with BOs to learn?I remember that some time ago there was a section on liquipedia, but now it seems a bit outdated. http://imbabuilds.com/ | ||
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