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Ej_
47656 Posts
On November 23 2014 02:23 ReMinD_ wrote: What are general strategies to use on Xel'Naga caverns vs T and P? i 14/14 vs P because they are guaranteed to do something vs dirty and they usually do something dirty that dies to 14/14 | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
I try to push in a few times but get nothing done (so many cannons, you need to watch to understand this). Eventually he maxes out on air from three bases and vaporizes several maxed armies in a row and kills me. I’m not sure what I could have done. I don’t think I ever had a chance to make profitable attacks and when he attacked me no amount of units had any traction against his army. What could I have done? replay is here: http://drop.sc/389344 | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
What could I have done? Don't go 3 Hatch/Pool on 2 player maps w/out scouting. And, be sure to scout, scout, scout.......even dead space in your own base (mandatory for any 2p map imo). Let's be honest man, the guy you played is really really bad  . Past 7:00 in the game he has no expo and like 10+ cannons in your bases??! Just weird. | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
 but I could see a normal game moving into a midgame where the toss turtles and let's me take the map. In that case I would like to know how to fight the late game air. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
but I could see a normal game moving into a midgame where the toss turtles and let's me take the map. In that case I would like to know how to fight the late game air. My preference is to eventually reach an end game composition of SH, Corruptor (A LOT of them), Static-D, Viper and Infestors. SH take take care of Templars storm/feedback potential (at least make it manageable) while Vipers pull into static D/Corruptors and Infestors lock down and assist in taking out clumped units. If you're unit control is better than the Protoss you'll eventually win because you trade much more efficiently. If you're in a real mid game struggle to secure expansions and resources are a problem, ie. not enough resources/gas to tech and accumulate the needed units to defend then Queen/SH should buy you enough time. Alternatively you can always start out Muta/Corruptor and try to contain them early enough where you can over-run them mid-late game. However, sometimes it's still necessary to tech to the above. | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
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capcomist
14 Posts
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
On November 25 2014 05:49 capcomist wrote: Firstly, big thanks to the people that help out here. Secondly, what is a good way to deal with a Terran that transitions into an extremely marauder-heavy composition (in addition to other typical later-game bio units)? This seems quite successful against most Zerg compositions to me (to be honest I rarely seem to face this, but it's always been a concern. Thanks. well if hes going really marauder heavy i usually start switching back into more mutas /speedling since banes arnt that great vs marauders, if you can get rid of the medivacs speedling destroy marauder heavy terrans | ||
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frazzle
United States468 Posts
On November 23 2014 07:11 General_Winter wrote: He cannon rushes me but doesn’t get a hatch and settles for a massive contain. I eventually break out and am behind in units lost but ahead in econ. I gear up for a hydra roach counter but he has turtled behind so many cannons I can’t get anything done. I try to push in a few times but get nothing done (so many cannons, you need to watch to understand this). Eventually he maxes out on air from three bases and vaporizes several maxed armies in a row and kills me. I’m not sure what I could have done. I don’t think I ever had a chance to make profitable attacks and when he attacked me no amount of units had any traction against his army. What could I have done? replay is here: http://drop.sc/389344 You floated a ton of minerals. Multiple thousands. I'm gold too, and get thrown off in these situations as well, but you gotta spend your money. Drop a couple macro-hatches w queens (or take more bases) and laugh as his cannons and voids try to stop your nonstop ling flood. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On November 25 2014 05:49 capcomist wrote: Firstly, big thanks to the people that help out here. Secondly, what is a good way to deal with a Terran that transitions into an extremely marauder-heavy composition (in addition to other typical later-game bio units)? This seems quite successful against most Zerg compositions to me (to be honest I rarely seem to face this, but it's always been a concern. Thanks. Ling muta bane. Right before your armies collide, double click-select all your banes (or have them on a hot key) to run them past the muraders (or around them in circles) Your goal is to kill anything that shoots up, and each time a bane dies, it will deal some damage to the muraders. What you don't want is 20 banes killing 3 muraders. | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
I start hatch first with a 10 scout and the plan of going 15 hatch 17 hatch 16 pool if I see a gate and 16 hatch 16 pool 16 gas if I see a forge. Instead I see nothing, no pylons in base so I assume that its going to be a proxy. If I have already started a hatch in my natural should I 1) immediately cancel the hatch and throw down a pool or 2) wait till I have money to build a pool and then throw down a pool. or should I do something else entirely? Also should I pull a drone off mining to go look for the proxy or keep everyone at home? | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On November 25 2014 22:30 General_Winter wrote: Thanks everyone for the help so far. I've got another ZvP question I start hatch first with a 10 scout and the plan of going 15 hatch 17 hatch 16 pool if I see a gate and 16 hatch 16 pool 16 gas if I see a forge. Instead I see nothing, no pylons in base so I assume that its going to be a proxy. If I have already started a hatch in my natural should I 1) immediately cancel the hatch and throw down a pool or 2) wait till I have money to build a pool and then throw down a pool. or should I do something else entirely? Also should I pull a drone off mining to go look for the proxy or keep everyone at home? if you see a forge, why do you hatch? there is no good way to defend the cannon rush. Unless you are going to sac the nat and make roaches? If you see the lack of anything at the toss's base. What most do is Throw down the pool asap. If the gates are in your base, you will have a hard timing fending it off if you hatch first. IF the proxy is far away. you can defend with lings, and make spines. also, what I like to do if I see a proxy with my scouting drone, is proxy hatch their natural, then make a pool.. When the zealots attack you. I send all of my drones across the map to the proxy hatch, and make 3-4 spines, a RW, queen, and a gas. | ||
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SorrowSCII
United States4 Posts
First, does anyone have any recommendations for pros with extremely consistent ZvZ? I've been trying to study SoO, as he's always a safe bet, but I can't seem to find all that many replays from him. Secondly, is there any particular style that's fairly consistent from game to game? I think my biggest struggle in ZvZ is that I can't seem to replicate the same situation over and over, due to the nonlinear nature of the larva mechanic. Thanks to anyone who can help me out! | ||
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nunnner
Canada26 Posts
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SorrowSCII
United States4 Posts
On November 28 2014 22:53 nunnner wrote: How are y'all taking 3rds on the maps that have destructible rocks between the natural and 3rd? Xel 'Naga and Ohana being the main ones. Some light pokes from protoss, or the 2 base 4-gate zealot pressure which has made a bit of a comeback, seem tough to defend. Note that I'm only plat. I've vetoed Xel'Naga Caverns altogether, because I don't think the third is very practical to take there and everyone expect 2-base all-ins now. However, Ohana is definitely reasonable. In ZvP specifically, it's important to carefully scout what's going on to keep the third. If his Nexus isn't down by 4:00, it's going to be light pressure, probably MSC/Stalker/Zealot. Assuming that you normally make 4 lings for safety in your build, just add on 4 more and transfer a Queen to the third. I like to make an extra Queen for creep spread anyway, so I move my extra one to the third and hold the pressure. If he's doing 4-Gate pressure into 7-Gate Robo (very popular at the moment), you should be working on the rocks until about 5:50 or so. It'll be close enough that you can leave one or two lings behind to finish them off. About 6:00, make 10-12 more lings to deny proxy Pylons and get map control. It'll slow his pressure down a little. This build is very, very tricky to hold though, so it takes a lot of practice. Just remember that it'll usually hit about 6:30, or 6:15 if it's the Sangate version. | ||
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zerge
Germany162 Posts
On November 29 2014 02:51 SorrowSCII wrote: If he's doing 4-Gate pressure into 7-Gate Robo (very popular at the moment), you should be working on the rocks until about 5:50 or so. It'll be close enough that you can leave one or two lings behind to finish them off. About 6:00, make 10-12 more lings to deny proxy Pylons and get map control. It'll slow his pressure down a little. This build is very, very tricky to hold though, so it takes a lot of practice. Just remember that it'll usually hit about 6:30, or 6:15 if it's the Sangate version. Making lings at 6 minutes seems a bit late when you want to deny the Pylon, the 12 gate Version can warp in zealots as early as 5:50. I think 5:30 after you put down your 3rd would be a more reasonable timing if you want to stop the push straight away. | ||
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SorrowSCII
United States4 Posts
On November 29 2014 08:29 zerge wrote: Making lings at 6 minutes seems a bit late when you want to deny the Pylon, the 12 gate Version can warp in zealots as early as 5:50. I think 5:30 after you put down your 3rd would be a more reasonable timing if you want to stop the push straight away. It really depends on the timing variation. The really early ones, as you say, can hit even earlier, but it depends a lot. The ones that aren't as all-in will hit a bit later generally. Scouting is quite important regardless so you can tell when you need to prepare. Perhaps I shouldn't have given quite so much of a generalization, though. Nobody has any ZvZ help? Sniff? | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
like you said, larvae are tricky, and if you don't know what your opponent is spawning in the early game sometimes you can just die. i think it's all map awareness and mechanics, poking in to see what's coming out of his hatch and then doing the best you can with what you have, whether it's speedling runbys, setting up your roach concave perfectly, making emergency spines, etc. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On November 29 2014 12:47 SorrowSCII wrote: It really depends on the timing variation. The really early ones, as you say, can hit even earlier, but it depends a lot. The ones that aren't as all-in will hit a bit later generally. Scouting is quite important regardless so you can tell when you need to prepare. Perhaps I shouldn't have given quite so much of a generalization, though. Nobody has any ZvZ help? Sniff? I ended last season at rank 84 gm. For my play style I choose gasless. It is the most consistant for me. This is the build order when you face gas players 15pool 15hatch 14ov 2 queen scouting lings (2-4) 24ov 28 2 Queens 34ov (if you see fast speed all in, (gas, pool, hatch) one spine, bring all 4 queens together by bottom of ramp, and make slow lings) 42 RW + 3 gas + ov(most important) (If you see speed ling all in now (hatch gas pool), pull all 4 queens at bottom of ramp, make slow lings, and then roaches with rw is done) If you see ling bane timing (6:30 - 7 min) Full wall off with evos, pull all 4 queens, make roaches and slow lings) 52 ov, evo, lair, 55 ov, +1 range, and 4th gas. Third when you can take it. | ||
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Arkivana
Switzerland2 Posts
I'm having a lot of troubles in ZvZ recently, especially against zergs that play muta into swarmhost compositions. How do you counter that going into roaches? I feel like defending against the mutas is quite easy but it forces you to turtle on 3 bases until you get roach/hydra/infestors maxout, but by the time they already have like 15 swarmhosts and you can't push anymore. Do you need to transition into swarmhost too or is there a way to kill them before? | ||
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