EPTToday a Toss 2 Gated me and did not attacked until i had my expo and first queen up. I just saw it when he moved with 4 zealots into my base. i build 3 spines microed drones and his zealots and my drones survived but he could not attack me anymore. I cant go out my base because his zealots block the ramp and while that he takes his 2 base and expands with a forge. I feel so helpless against this, it just seems like an always freewin for protoss. I tried to get roaches to break out my base and wtf yeah i got my second base and he just attacks with warpgate finish.
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 138
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Haku
Germany550 Posts
Today a Toss 2 Gated me and did not attacked until i had my expo and first queen up. I just saw it when he moved with 4 zealots into my base. i build 3 spines microed drones and his zealots and my drones survived but he could not attack me anymore. I cant go out my base because his zealots block the ramp and while that he takes his 2 base and expands with a forge. I feel so helpless against this, it just seems like an always freewin for protoss. I tried to get roaches to break out my base and wtf yeah i got my second base and he just attacks with warpgate finish. | ||
Usus
United Kingdom26 Posts
On January 07 2014 21:17 EXRNaRa wrote: What do you do against a 2 Gate? I never won against this build, does not matter how bad it was executed. Today a Toss 2 Gated me and did not attacked until i had my expo and first queen up. I just saw it when he moved with 4 zealots into my base. i build 3 spines microed drones and his zealots and my drones survived but he could not attack me anymore. I cant go out my base because his zealots block the ramp and while that he takes his 2 base and expands with a forge. I feel so helpless against this, it just seems like an always freewin for protoss. I tried to get roaches to break out my base and wtf yeah i got my second base and he just attacks with warpgate finish. Well you just said you had queens, they're a ranged unit so they can take down the zealots blocking the ramp you could also spread creep near enough for a spine to reach the zealots. 2 gate against a hatchery first is very hard to hold, the best way I've seen of holding is to run a sizeable portion of drones away to bait the zealots/force them into a engage able position and then build a spine as hidden/back as possible and make only zerglings. You want to leave 5 drones back because that allows for a zergling to be built every time a larva is ready. Holding off with a hatchery first is hard and requires good micro luck and everything else in between. If you feel helpless against it just drone scout, it's a minimal loss of minerals and gives you peace of mind/less frustration. | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
[QUOTE]On January 07 2014 21:17 EXRNaRa wrote: If you feel helpless against it just drone scout, it's a minimal loss of minerals and gives you peace of mind/less frustration.[/QUOTE] When you make your natural overlord, hook it over the fog of war to cover the in-base 2 gate proxy locations. Use a drone scout on the other side. Unfortunately some of the new maps have massive empty space in the main, which only makes it more viable.. | ||
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Terence Chill
Germany112 Posts
On January 07 2014 21:17 EXRNaRa wrote: What do you do against a 2 Gate? I never won against this build, does not matter how bad it was executed. Today a Toss 2 Gated me and did not attacked until i had my expo and first queen up. I just saw it when he moved with 4 zealots into my base. i build 3 spines microed drones and his zealots and my drones survived but he could not attack me anymore. I cant go out my base because his zealots block the ramp and while that he takes his 2 base and expands with a forge. I feel so helpless against this, it just seems like an always freewin for protoss. I tried to get roaches to break out my base and wtf yeah i got my second base and he just attacks with warpgate finish. maybe you should try destinys build. its my go-to build atm in zvp. he goes for a 13pool. the 13th drone can be rallied to one of the corners and back on creep to build the pool. followed by a 16hatch and 4lings at 15. those lings can do some damage against both gate expand and nexus first, and is good vs cannon rush. against gate expand you can snipe their second pylon and vs nexus first you can prevent the cannon from being built and attack the wall off. by that time you should have scouted with your second overlord for close proxy locations. like on yeonsu between your 2nd and 3rd. because you want to make another drone at 17, send one drone to your 3rd and build an overlord at18 while your drone is on the way. you will have exactly 300 when the drone arrives when you send it as soon as your 18supply drone is building. if you did not see the proxy gates and you build the drone and no spines i think it is still hard to hold. thats why you need to check some positions with your 2nd overlord. /e: he goes for i think 5 queens (first at 19) in total and uses the first two for creep only. i think he starts injecting at ~40 supply. i like to go only 4 against gate expand and only 3 against nexus/forge expand because i always take my first gas at ~4:30. | ||
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MrJoe223
2 Posts
I'm relatively new to zerg, and all of the commentators(such as Day9) recommend something to the effect of "morph drones until you see him move out." I've been trying to do this, and in all the passive macro games in which I can max out, I steamroll whoever my opponent is. However, if they move out before I've stopped droning and before I start maxing my army, I get crushed, as the units I morphed when I see them moving out(I usually have a ling or two in front of their base, + overlords at the expansions) arrive piecemeal. Tonight, for example, I've been beaten 5 times by an enemy moving out right after I saturate my third. And so I ask: What's the strategy for this? Do I throw down static defense? Do I alternate waves of drones/units? Any help'd be appreciated. Thanks guys. :D | ||
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Effay
United States153 Posts
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On January 09 2014 13:12 Effay wrote: Are there any economic openings with gas ZvT or is it just the 3 hatch gasless (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-zerg/hots-zvt/zvt-scarletts-3-hatchery-macro-opener/)? The following is taken from: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428262. Credit to them. 9 – overlord 10 – drone scout (up to you on scouting or not) 15 – hatch 16 – pool 16 – gas 17 – overlord Pool finishes – 2 sets of lings + 2 queens 100 gas – drones off 100 gas – metabolic boost 5:30 – 6:00 – take third Taking third – add 2 queens (creep spread) 6:20 – 6:30 – put guys back on gas + 2nd gas 7:00 – double evo (preferably at wall so queen or lings stop hellion runbys) 7:15 – roach warren 250 gas - +1 melee and +1 carapace 8:00 – 8:30 – lair + baneling nest | ||
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LyleGately
United States14 Posts
On January 09 2014 12:32 MrJoe223 wrote: However, if they move out before I've stopped droning and before I start maxing my army, I get crushed (Silver league) Knowing when their natural expansion is late will help out. I don't know all the build timings exactly, but for vs T or P if they don't have a natural down by 4:30 or 5:00 something is up. Vs Z if you're going 15 pool/hatch and their natural is more than ~30 seconds later than yours, something is up. Because we're in lower leagues, there's the coin flip between their expansion being late because they're prepping for an early push -OR- they're absolutely horrible. Either way, you need to stop droning and get some army going. If they attack early, you have units to defend. If they're terrible, you need to identify that as soon as you can so you can drone up some and then go kill them. I just had a game like this today. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4589447 5:15 I scout with initial lings that his natural isn't down and he has four marines at his front. I immediately switch into oh shit mode. Right away get gas, stop droning, and sacrifice one of my overlords to see what's up (push or terrible?). I see two tech labs on factories and no CC. I didn't really know if that's going to be blue flame something or tanks or both, but it's a push. [I should have canceled those panic spores]. I'm pretty terrible (silver league), so I don't handle it perfectly but I do stop his push that shows up at around 8:45. If I had waited until I had seen the push out of his base, I would have seen him move out at 8:10. Waiting for the push gives you 35 seconds to prepare, but being aware of natural timings gave me 3:30 to prepare. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On January 09 2014 12:32 MrJoe223 wrote: This is a relatively dumb question, but please bear with me. (bronze leaguer) I'm relatively new to zerg, and all of the commentators(such as Day9) recommend something to the effect of "morph drones until you see him move out." I've been trying to do this, and in all the passive macro games in which I can max out, I steamroll whoever my opponent is. However, if they move out before I've stopped droning and before I start maxing my army, I get crushed, as the units I morphed when I see them moving out(I usually have a ling or two in front of their base, + overlords at the expansions) arrive piecemeal. Tonight, for example, I've been beaten 5 times by an enemy moving out right after I saturate my third. And so I ask: What's the strategy for this? Do I throw down static defense? Do I alternate waves of drones/units? Any help'd be appreciated. Thanks guys. :D Learning when to and when not to drone is probably one of the hardest parts of zerg. The best mindset to start out with is drone as long as you can. Sounds like you know how to hold the D button so the best thing you need to learn is when to stop. When you are finished droning your second base as you are considering droning up on your third scout his base, how big is his army? How much production does he have? These sorts of questions are key in knowing when to drone. Also one big thing is after a game have a look at the replay. Watch from your own perspective. At 6 minutes and then 2 minute intervals afterwoulds pause it and ask yourself, what can he do to me right now? Is it safe to drone? After asking that go look at his base and see if he could kill you/cripple you. After doing this several times you will begin to get the feel for what your opponent can actually do to you. Often your mind will tell you one extreme or the other, try and find the balance. Some simple rules that you can apply: Enemy on 1 base = don't drone hard Enemy on 2 fast bases = 2 base saturation and check what he is doing in his main. (If lots of production and units don't drone!) Enemy builds third = get 80 drones asap. This is a very rough indicator as I am trying to keep it simple for you. Just think to yourself 'am I safe to drone'. If your gut says I am not sure, get an overseer in his base fast and then make a decision after that. You cannot always afford to wait untill they move out especially on smaller maps. | ||
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MrJoe223
2 Posts
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
What army composition should I have to deal with your average mid-game Protoss death ball (sentries/stalkers/some zealots/2-3 colossi)? How do I deny their third if they defend it with said death ball? | ||
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Haku
Germany550 Posts
On January 10 2014 02:10 Conti wrote: I don't know how to Protoss. What army composition should I have to deal with your average mid-game Protoss death ball (sentries/stalkers/some zealots/2-3 colossi)? How do I deny their third if they defend it with said death ball? Hey Conti! Maybe you should read Blades Zerg Guide, its full of information about Protoss and also the other races: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428262 Hope that helps! | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
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absalom86
Iceland1770 Posts
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On January 10 2014 15:03 zasg wrote: Just wondering how people generally deal with the zealot pressure into immortal all in that San did a lot at IEM. I have been seeing it on the Korean ladder a lot and it is a pain. Either you cut drones early and handle the first part no problems. But then you are economically way behind and then the immortal follow up crushes you. VERY frustrating! Is it like 3gate zealot warpins? I like to do something similar to Life's 5-6 quick roaches to defend early zealots, which still allows you to drone pretty well since you don't have too keep making units since those roaches hard counters his zealot warpins. Day9 did a daily on it! My own question: What's the best way to win really quick vs proxy 2gate if you scout it and they only build zealots to block the ramp while probing behind it and make a wall-off at home? I feel like it should be pretty much a freewin when I scout it, but they always manage to get the wall up before I've broken out of my main and got my lings to his base, and he'll be up in workers. I usually win anyways, but I feel like the games shouldn't have to go to longer games if I just react properly to it. Any tips? Replay here! | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On January 10 2014 17:08 absalom86 wrote: Does anyone else feel it might help the gameplay if blinding cloud affected air units ? It's so hard to deal with mass voidrays at the moment, especially when storm is added in, and a general zerg army gets obliterated when all tech is available to both players. Might even be interesting if it obstructs casters within its radius ( although that might be too much, starting with hitting air would be good enough ). If you would stop vikings from shooting down the vipers, and add some fungal on that, vipers would be way OP in ZvT. Or that is my theorycrafting take on it.  | ||
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absalom86
Iceland1770 Posts
On January 10 2014 21:33 Cascade wrote: If you would stop vikings from shooting down the vipers, and add some fungal on that, vipers would be way OP in ZvT. Or that is my theorycrafting take on it. I'm not so sure. They are only used against mech at the moment, and the cloud is very small, so you could spread and hit, but you would also have to micro your air units rather than just auto attack. Same goes for mass voidrays, for an example, you could move them out of it, or they would fly forward until in range of something. Don't think it would be op or game changing, but it would be a nice added dynamic. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On January 10 2014 19:38 Zheryn wrote: Is it like 3gate zealot warpins? I like to do something similar to Life's 5-6 quick roaches to defend early zealots, which still allows you to drone pretty well since you don't have too keep making units since those roaches hard counters his zealot warpins. Day9 did a daily on it! My own question: What's the best way to win really quick vs proxy 2gate if you scout it and they only build zealots to block the ramp while probing behind it and make a wall-off at home? I feel like it should be pretty much a freewin when I scout it, but they always manage to get the wall up before I've broken out of my main and got my lings to his base, and he'll be up in workers. I usually win anyways, but I feel like the games shouldn't have to go to longer games if I just react properly to it. Any tips? Replay here! If you scout the proxy do not just ignore it, send drones to harrass, like 5-6. You can use these to force his zealots to defend his pylon, if he leaves, kill the pylon, if he stays dance around while getting lings out at home. Normally they will stay around and fight your drones, meaning you can get the lings out/natural built/spine done to progress forward. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On January 11 2014 04:27 zasg wrote: If you scout the proxy do not just ignore it, send drones to harrass, like 5-6. You can use these to force his zealots to defend his pylon, if he leaves, kill the pylon, if he stays dance around while getting lings out at home. Normally they will stay around and fight your drones, meaning you can get the lings out/natural built/spine done to progress forward. That's a cool idea. I just tested it and if I scout the proxy when I'm at 15 supply, and I drop a pool and send 4 more drones, I'll be able to kill the pylon before first zealot is out. Then I might be able to use my first 8 lings to go kill all his workers, will try that out next time ty | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On January 11 2014 09:31 Zheryn wrote: That's a cool idea. I just tested it and if I scout the proxy when I'm at 15 supply, and I drop a pool and send 4 more drones, I'll be able to kill the pylon before first zealot is out. Then I might be able to use my first 8 lings to go kill all his workers, will try that out next time ty I got so sick of dying to proxy 2 gate that I now 13 scout against every protoss. Check in my base and briefly where they might proxy outside my base. I don't bother scouting their base but just check common proxy locations. Makes it a joke to defend and does not cost you much to do it. | ||
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