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On January 04 2014 12:56 Azoryen wrote:
Can anyone post a replay of a nice safe muta build for ZvP?
I never went mutas ZvP before, how do you stop 2 base all-ins (e.g. 7 gate, immortal/sentry immortal/zealot) with this style?
In my opinion attempting to rush muta in ZvP generally just leaves you open to die to anything. Generally speaking Muta's are not something you just 'go for'. For a good alround build with Mutas see http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-653-jaedongs-zvp-mass-larvae-muta-strat/ it the way I prefer to do it. Mutalisks should be used as a switch more so then a strat to just blindly go for.
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Is the +1/+1 zergling build in ZvZ a counter to the ZvZ mutalisk build outlined in blade55555's zerg overview? And if it isn't, how does one hold?
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So I'm thinking of switching to Zerg from Terran because playing TvPs anymore is just too soul sucking, but before I do I was wondering what your opinions were on the ZvZ MU? From what I've heard before, its one of the hardest and coin-flippy MUs; how true (if at all) is that?
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On January 05 2014 12:20 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Is the +1/+1 zergling build in ZvZ a counter to the ZvZ mutalisk build outlined in blade55555's zerg overview? And if it isn't, how does one hold?
It is not a counter. To hold it you need to make more banelings then normal. At least 4-5 banelings until mutas are out and make sure to keep replenishing banelings so that the constant flood of lings doesn't kill you.
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On January 05 2014 16:49 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 12:20 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Is the +1/+1 zergling build in ZvZ a counter to the ZvZ mutalisk build outlined in blade55555's zerg overview? And if it isn't, how does one hold? It is not a counter. To hold it you need to make more banelings then normal. At least 4-5 banelings until mutas are out and make sure to keep replenishing banelings so that the constant flood of lings doesn't kill you.
Stabilizing is key. If you can get yourself stabilized and have enough at home to get aggressive witth your mutas you are on the way. The key is to not move out with your mutas to fast, if you move out to early and do not have the right defenses you will lose to much.
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On January 05 2014 16:43 Survivor61316 wrote:
So I'm thinking of switching to Zerg from Terran because playing TvPs anymore is just too soul sucking, but before I do I was wondering what your opinions were on the ZvZ MU? From what I've heard before, its one of the hardest and coin-flippy MUs; how true (if at all) is that?
The ling-bane micro at the beggining is quite hard but it also can give you the chance to come back if you can micro better than your opponent and macro at the same time. Coming back in the mid game is much harder since the roach vs roach and muta vs muta wars are not so hard to do.
Regarding coin flipps; you can always decide if you make a drone or an army unit so that way there is not one standard macro build and almost every all-in can be played slightly delayed as pressure or/and with drones behind it.
If you go for example pool first, hatch and fast gas, dont delay your bane nest and speed and get some zerglings at a reasonable time you should be in a position to defend anyting while not auto loosing in the mid game to a greedier build.
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How do you defend the cheeses with buildings like cannon rushes or the terran thingy that consists in building a base in your natural ? My usual build is 15 hatch but is it too greedy ??? I don't want to do 15 pool because I'm a really macro-oriented player and when I'm forced on one base i really don't known how to handle it. I tried nydus but it is often too late and on one base i can't produce enough units to defeat him. You guys got any tricks or builds to help me ???
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United Kingdom948 Posts
I am having huge problems with my ZvZ, I feel like the only way I can win is through my wide array of early all ins.
I need an aggressive build order that allows me to constantly face check my opponent without falling behind I'm also fed up with roach play but do not know any decent mutalisk builds that are aggressive yet safe.
I was thinking about something like a 9 pool gasless which denies their expansion and allows me to get a faster one up but one that can then hold a speedling/baneling all in that invariably follows up the loss of their expansion.
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How do I hold a third base if I go gasless vs reaper expand into hellions? Earlier I got really early roaches out to deal with it, but the economy gets so shitty after that.
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On January 06 2014 03:02 typhoonn wrote:
How do you defend the cheeses with buildings like cannon rushes or the terran thingy that consists in building a base in your natural ? My usual build is 15 hatch but is it too greedy ??? I don't want to do 15 pool because I'm a really macro-oriented player and when I'm forced on one base i really don't known how to handle it. I tried nydus but it is often too late and on one base i can't produce enough units to defeat him. You guys got any tricks or builds to help me ???
To be honest, I wouldn't focus on what to do once you are on a 1 base. I would focus on how to deal with the cheese. If you really want to go hatch first try to improve on dealing with it.
Make sure you have your O/L at your nat so you can see it happening straight away. See a probe looking mischievous send 3-4 drones down. To be honest I always have a drone at my natural as soon as a probe turns up if I hatch first, that way they don't get that sweet spot that auto cancels a hatch. If you happen to get ebay blocked by a terran at your natural then the best thing you can do is just delay your hatch. Chuck a pool down asap and keep droning. If you feel confident you can take your third as your natural (which I often do). But the safest thing is to just keep making drones/queens until your pool is done and then get the lings to get rid of the ebay.
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On January 06 2014 04:49 Zheryn wrote:
How do I hold a third base if I go gasless vs reaper expand into hellions? Earlier I got really early roaches out to deal with it, but the economy gets so shitty after that.
Go 6 queen, I go gasless in every single ZvT and go 6 queens. The build allows you do drone freely while defending against pressure, means you almost always get a third at 6:00 and continue droning. You can either go from that into a 1/1 roach timing or into a normal ling/bling/muta build.
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How do I play ZvP beyond once it's time to take a 5th base etc, and how do I actually kill him with swarm hosts? Whenever I try to go beyond 4 bases, I just get outmanouvered. The protoss moves to one location, forces me to release locusts there and then attacks somewhere else. It end by me just sitting on 4 bases until I die. http://drop.sc/370540
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On January 06 2014 05:03 zasg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 04:49 Zheryn wrote:
How do I hold a third base if I go gasless vs reaper expand into hellions? Earlier I got really early roaches out to deal with it, but the economy gets so shitty after that. Go 6 queen, I go gasless in every single ZvT and go 6 queens. The build allows you do drone freely while defending against pressure, means you almost always get a third at 6:00 and continue droning. You can either go from that into a 1/1 roach timing or into a normal ling/bling/muta build.
I'll try go for more queens and see how it works, thanks.
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On January 06 2014 03:02 typhoonn wrote:
How do you defend the cheeses with buildings like cannon rushes or the terran thingy that consists in building a base in your natural ? My usual build is 15 hatch but is it too greedy ??? I don't want to do 15 pool because I'm a really macro-oriented player and when I'm forced on one base i really don't known how to handle it. I tried nydus but it is often too late and on one base i can't produce enough units to defeat him. You guys got any tricks or builds to help me ???
ZvP you shouldn't be going 15 hatch because if they are good, they can a) block the hatch if it's a 1 player map iwth a pylon or cannon rush you and you won't be able to stop it if it's done correctly. I usually go 14 pool, it's the most economical on average. If you know you're going to get pylon blocked, then 13 pool is the best because it clears the pylon the fastest but if they cancel it or go gateway first, you're slightly inefficient. Same goes for 15 pool, you can't clear the pylon quickly with a 15 pool and you can't just expand to your third first because protoss might be doing gateway pressure and it's risky. Once you scout they went forge first, pay attention to where the probe is. if he is late to your main or came from somewhere weird, be suspicious. Ideally you check everywhere in your base all the time, you should have lings out in time to stop it unless it's a cannon rush. If the forge is really early or if you see that his probe count is low, he's cannon rushing and you need to pull drones, but most of the time they try to macro behind it and lings are enough to stop it.
ZvT 15 hatch you can defend vs all bunker rushes ideally, but it's risky if you aren't used to holding vs cheese. I'd find it would behoove you to start going 14 hatch instead of 15 hatch, you can get your creep out quicker at the cost of what is pretty much a drone's worth of minerals. getting creep out quicker though is pretty useful vs hellions, especially on maps where your third is far from your nat. You should always send a scout with your 10th drone as you make an ovi. If you see he has a low scv count, he is 2raxing you, if he doesnt make a CC and you see no rax, it's a proxy 2rax. if you scout he is gasless always be suspicious. Always send your second ovi to your nat until your hatchery is done building so you can scout if he is making a bunker. When you see he is making a bunker, depending on if it's a 2rax vs just 1rax pressure, you'd want to pull an appropriate amount of drones. I usually pull all my drones besides 3 or 4 if it's a 2rax and about 7 i guess if it's just 1rax pressure. Once you have pulled drones it comes down to making sure the bunkers don't go up and stalling until your lings come out. make 1/2 spines and send some drones after the marines and pull the weakend ones back to attack the bunkers. Make sure you have a drone or 2 attacking the scv and some attacking the bunker. If it's a proxy 2 rax he's probably pulling more than 2 scvs and you should focus the bunker but damage the scv as much as you can. if you micro correctly you should have denied the bunker and your lings/spine should have you covered from pretty much everything at this point.You should be way ahead, but be careful not to lose to whatever risky play he's going to pull next to try to catchup. Most of the time it's banshees but he could have a hidden expo or he might go for drops.
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On January 07 2014 00:46 Regtic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 03:02 typhoonn wrote:
How do you defend the cheeses with buildings like cannon rushes or the terran thingy that consists in building a base in your natural ? My usual build is 15 hatch but is it too greedy ??? I don't want to do 15 pool because I'm a really macro-oriented player and when I'm forced on one base i really don't known how to handle it. I tried nydus but it is often too late and on one base i can't produce enough units to defeat him. You guys got any tricks or builds to help me ??? ZvP you shouldn't be going 15 hatch because if they are good, they can a) block the hatch if it's a 1 player map iwth a pylon or cannon rush you and you won't be able to stop it if it's done correctly. I usually go 14 pool, it's the most economical on average. If you know you're going to get pylon blocked, then 13 pool is the best because it clears the pylon the fastest but if they cancel it or go gateway first, you're slightly inefficient. Same goes for 15 pool, you can't clear the pylon quickly with a 15 pool and you can't just expand to your third first because protoss might be doing gateway pressure and it's risky. Once you scout they went forge first, pay attention to where the probe is. if he is late to your main or came from somewhere weird, be suspicious. Ideally you check everywhere in your base all the time, you should have lings out in time to stop it unless it's a cannon rush. If the forge is really early or if you see that his probe count is low, he's cannon rushing and you need to pull drones, but most of the time they try to macro behind it and lings are enough to stop it. ZvT 15 hatch you can defend vs all bunker rushes ideally, but it's risky if you aren't used to holding vs cheese. I'd find it would behoove you to start going 14 hatch instead of 15 hatch, you can get your creep out quicker at the cost of what is pretty much a drone's worth of minerals. getting creep out quicker though is pretty useful vs hellions, especially on maps where your third is far from your nat. You should always send a scout with your 10th drone as you make an ovi. If you see he has a low scv count, he is 2raxing you, if he doesnt make a CC and you see no rax, it's a proxy 2rax. if you scout he is gasless always be suspicious. Always send your second ovi to your nat until your hatchery is done building so you can scout if he is making a bunker. When you see he is making a bunker, depending on if it's a 2rax vs just 1rax pressure, you'd want to pull an appropriate amount of drones. I usually pull all my drones besides 3 or 4 if it's a 2rax and about 7 i guess if it's just 1rax pressure. Once you have pulled drones it comes down to making sure the bunkers don't go up and stalling until your lings come out. make 1/2 spines and send some drones after the marines and pull the weakend ones back to attack the bunkers. Make sure you have a drone or 2 attacking the scv and some attacking the bunker. If it's a proxy 2 rax he's probably pulling more than 2 scvs and you should focus the bunker but damage the scv as much as you can. if you micro correctly you should have denied the bunker and your lings/spine should have you covered from pretty much everything at this point.You should be way ahead, but be careful not to lose to whatever risky play he's going to pull next to try to catchup. Most of the time it's banshees but he could have a hidden expo or he might go for drops.
ZvP hatch first is viable and standard. I do it very often. The rule is based generally on their scout, if their scout is there early then I pool first, if their scout hasn't turned up (normally indicating a gateway opening) you can hatch first. Just make sure you send your second overlord to your natural every time, that way you see the prove turn up and can instantly keep an eye on it for any mischievous behaviour.
ZvT open hatch first every time (unless you want to cheese). If you open pool first you are never going to learn how to hold early pressures. Just open with it and when he does a 11/11 or something a bit slower practice defending. Check out some pro vod's of it happening and see their reaction.
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The standard Roach Bane allin is written down in the first post by suppy:
Hatch Gas Pool, ling speed
5:50 resume gas mining
6:00 hatch
6:10 add 2nd + 3rd gas
6:10 RW
Stop drone production at 2 base full saturation
Baneling nest at RW completion
13 roaches, rally lings behind
Hit at about 8:45
I used the DRG Style with Gas at 4min mark and roach warren, another gas at 42 Supply and a Bane nest when Roach warren is half way done.
In the last 2 months i saw Jaedong, Revival and HyuN do a Roach Bane bust that hits at the same timing 8:45 with arround 10 roaches and mass ling bane BUT they had a third up, so not completly off to bases.
Does anyone know the exact build order for this? I always noticed it while they already attacked and so i did not see when they placed down 3 hatch, gases and so on.
Sorry about posting it again, but it seemed like it disappeared in the wide space of this thread.
If thats not allowed i am sorry...
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On January 07 2014 04:05 zasg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 00:46 Regtic wrote:On January 06 2014 03:02 typhoonn wrote:
How do you defend the cheeses with buildings like cannon rushes or the terran thingy that consists in building a base in your natural ? My usual build is 15 hatch but is it too greedy ??? I don't want to do 15 pool because I'm a really macro-oriented player and when I'm forced on one base i really don't known how to handle it. I tried nydus but it is often too late and on one base i can't produce enough units to defeat him. You guys got any tricks or builds to help me ??? ZvP you shouldn't be going 15 hatch because if they are good, they can a) block the hatch if it's a 1 player map iwth a pylon or cannon rush you and you won't be able to stop it if it's done correctly. I usually go 14 pool, it's the most economical on average. If you know you're going to get pylon blocked, then 13 pool is the best because it clears the pylon the fastest but if they cancel it or go gateway first, you're slightly inefficient. Same goes for 15 pool, you can't clear the pylon quickly with a 15 pool and you can't just expand to your third first because protoss might be doing gateway pressure and it's risky. Once you scout they went forge first, pay attention to where the probe is. if he is late to your main or came from somewhere weird, be suspicious. Ideally you check everywhere in your base all the time, you should have lings out in time to stop it unless it's a cannon rush. If the forge is really early or if you see that his probe count is low, he's cannon rushing and you need to pull drones, but most of the time they try to macro behind it and lings are enough to stop it. ZvT 15 hatch you can defend vs all bunker rushes ideally, but it's risky if you aren't used to holding vs cheese. I'd find it would behoove you to start going 14 hatch instead of 15 hatch, you can get your creep out quicker at the cost of what is pretty much a drone's worth of minerals. getting creep out quicker though is pretty useful vs hellions, especially on maps where your third is far from your nat. You should always send a scout with your 10th drone as you make an ovi. If you see he has a low scv count, he is 2raxing you, if he doesnt make a CC and you see no rax, it's a proxy 2rax. if you scout he is gasless always be suspicious. Always send your second ovi to your nat until your hatchery is done building so you can scout if he is making a bunker. When you see he is making a bunker, depending on if it's a 2rax vs just 1rax pressure, you'd want to pull an appropriate amount of drones. I usually pull all my drones besides 3 or 4 if it's a 2rax and about 7 i guess if it's just 1rax pressure. Once you have pulled drones it comes down to making sure the bunkers don't go up and stalling until your lings come out. make 1/2 spines and send some drones after the marines and pull the weakend ones back to attack the bunkers. Make sure you have a drone or 2 attacking the scv and some attacking the bunker. If it's a proxy 2 rax he's probably pulling more than 2 scvs and you should focus the bunker but damage the scv as much as you can. if you micro correctly you should have denied the bunker and your lings/spine should have you covered from pretty much everything at this point.You should be way ahead, but be careful not to lose to whatever risky play he's going to pull next to try to catchup. Most of the time it's banshees but he could have a hidden expo or he might go for drops. ZvP hatch first is viable and standard. I do it very often. The rule is based generally on their scout, if their scout is there early then I pool first, if their scout hasn't turned up (normally indicating a gateway opening) you can hatch first. Just make sure you send your second overlord to your natural every time, that way you see the prove turn up and can instantly keep an eye on it for any mischievous behaviour. ZvT open hatch first every time (unless you want to cheese). If you open pool first you are never going to learn how to hold early pressures. Just open with it and when he does a 11/11 or something a bit slower practice defending. Check out some pro vod's of it happening and see their reaction.
Your ZvP is pretty dicey, they can still come after your hatch has come down and start putting cannons up and you won't have lings to stop it. What about on 4 player maps when the time they scout you doesn't mean anything? I get what you're saying,it's unlikely a ffe sends a probe scout late, but you are going to lose 95% of the time you're wrong with that assumption. BTW idk if you misread but I said go hatch first.
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Is there any safe way to 15 hatch against a forge first Protoss safely?
Like is there any pathways you can block that prevent him from throwing cannon in the natural?
How far back does 15 pool set you back from a 15 hatching ZvP?
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Hello there zergies, I'm a terran trying to identify different builds in tvz and looking for your help!
It seems to me there are two kinds of styles in the current meta: the usual lingblingmuta and different roach plays that usually pressure the terran's third or even life if they're being greedy. Additionally the roach openers have more midgame options.
I'm asking if you fellas could point out pro vods/replays so I could get the timings down. I'm looking for the completely standard, safe, copiable builds that people use on ladder. Big thanks in advance!
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EPT
