EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 135
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vik7
United States227 Posts
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Tikihut
United States10 Posts
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harelk1
Israel11 Posts
please help TT | ||
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mooseman1710
United States153 Posts
On December 25 2013 19:13 harelk1 wrote: i just cant !!! but cant handle protoss anymore, its impossible to know exactly what are they up to ! High master here, suffering from any cheese/ semi-allin prussure protoss can do, starting from cannon rush to 4gate naniwa, 3gate stargate and blink allin on 2bases, i fell that if protoss would not take the 3rd base, i would auto-lose... i tried anything !!! from being over-agressive, counter attck, greedyness... nothing handles the prussures... any secret tips i need to know about ? any help vs the gate expand into play? its fells like the army of protoss always outplay my'n. my ratio is freakin' 38% now ! seems to hard and understandable in this matchup. somehow they are realy hard to scout exactly ! what they are doing. please help TT against gate expo look at day9s daily 660. 4:30 gas 5:30 roach warren @100%warren pop 6 roaches @100 gas ling speed If safe from gate/MSC aggression--@100 gas lair and some more gasses plus evo chamber burrow and +1 ranged asap reclaim map control with roaches and lings clear up the pylon and poke around while droning up safely with ur roaches. deals with zealots in time. if u scout gate cyber stargate major damage can be done with 6 roaches and speedlings before he can get many sentries out. just look at STLife's games against gateway expo. i firmly believe its easier to have that safety net of roaches out than to drone up hard and walk a very thin line of drones/units. if no pylon or aggression is found with the roaches, then you will still be able to poke with ling speed and roaches and burrow to bait out forcefields and strengthen ur next attack. its not an all in, it carries you safely to the mid/late game and lets you save ur third more often than not. hope i helped. | ||
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mooseman1710
United States153 Posts
On December 25 2013 10:29 Tikihut wrote: Is there any reason why pros get range upgrades for roach hydra or just roach rather than carapace? i believe it is because armor +1 will shield each unit from 1 extra damage. the +1 attack increases roach damage by two if i remember correctly. therefore the swing in dps is more favorable when +1 attack is researched. not to mention that carapace costs more gas. and there is no protoss unit that attacks fast enough to make +1 armor more useful. | ||
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mooseman1710
United States153 Posts
On December 24 2013 17:16 vik7 wrote: ok silver scrub here, i just feel lost here i got like a 53.% win ratio cuz i face golds plats and sometimes past diamonds and its frustrating cuz i'm still learning macro mechanics i have a general build i do but i feel like my macro and micro can't keep up with them and i struggle against terran the most, i try muta ling bane style but when do the multi drops i can' keep up help... just post a replay and it will be much easier to help you. in general, drops are best stopped when you have overlord speed and overlords in all the air space that leads to your base. this way, if you are looking at the minimap nonstop, you will have more time to react. the farther you spot the drop from ur base the more time you have to react. when floating enough minerals, spores+ spines in key locations where medivacs will fly over will help create more time for you to react. This could all be moot however if your macro/build order isn't what it should be, thats why post a replay and you might learn that the reason you are losing is not drops but actually everything you are doing up until that point. | ||
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vik7
United States227 Posts
On December 25 2013 20:06 mooseman1710 wrote: just post a replay and it will be much easier to help you. in general, drops are best stopped when you have overlord speed and overlords in all the air space that leads to your base. this way, if you are looking at the minimap nonstop, you will have more time to react. the farther you spot the drop from ur base the more time you have to react. when floating enough minerals, spores+ spines in key locations where medivacs will fly over will help create more time for you to react. This could all be moot however if your macro/build order isn't what it should be, thats why post a replay and you might learn that the reason you are losing is not drops but actually everything you are doing up until that point. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4529396 helpful advice would help me =) replay is linked | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On December 25 2013 19:13 harelk1 wrote: i just cant !!! but cant handle protoss anymore, its impossible to know exactly what are they up to ! High master here, suffering from any cheese/ semi-allin prussure protoss can do, starting from cannon rush to 4gate naniwa, 3gate stargate and blink allin on 2bases, i fell that if protoss would not take the 3rd base, i would auto-lose... i tried anything !!! from being over-agressive, counter attck, greedyness... nothing handles the prussures... any secret tips i need to know about ? any help vs the gate expand into play? its fells like the army of protoss always outplay my'n. my ratio is freakin' 38% now ! seems to hard and understandable in this matchup. somehow they are realy hard to scout exactly ! what they are doing. please help TT If you can post some replays, I could help out. I'm also a high master Zerg with a 57% winrate versus protoss at the moment. My preferred build against gateway expand is 15 hatch, 17 2nd hatch, 16 gas, 15 pool. This build lets you get zergling speed in time to deny the pylon for zealot pressure, and I throw in a little bit of a trick to help me scout. Instead of taking drones off gas once I have the 100 I need for speed, I leave the drones in and get overlord speed. That lets you get overlord speed out by about 6:20, meaning you have a full scout of the protoss base by the 6:45 mark. That lets you see all of their gas geysers, potential tech, ect ect, without any way of them denying you. So, that solves your problem with scouting, just remember to also get the roach warren by 5:45. As for cannon rushes, I always place my second overlord over my natural, and send a drone out to the 3rd to patrol behind the mineral line (only do this on maps where you can't take another third, otherwise, let them waste a couple pylons and cannons while you cancel and take the other third). If you see a probe posturing to start cannon rushing you, immediately pull 6+ drones to deal with the pylon. Put 4 drones to attack the pylon, and then put one drone on patrol around the pylon to block the cannon, while using the last drone to attack the probe. Putting drones on patrol around the pylon is one of the best ways to block a cannon rush, because it totally fucks with the AI of the probe, and easily lets you get those crucial few hits on it. I also like to scout with my 13th drone, because on 2 player maps it'll tell you whether or not you can go for the 3rd hatch or have to go with the 16 pool. | ||
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Marcinko
South Africa1014 Posts
On December 26 2013 11:37 CivilAnarchy wrote: If you can post some replays, I could help out. I'm also a high master Zerg with a 57% winrate versus protoss at the moment. My preferred build against gateway expand is 15 hatch, 17 2nd hatch, 16 gas, 15 pool. This build lets you get zergling speed in time to deny the pylon for zealot pressure, and I throw in a little bit of a trick to help me scout. Instead of taking drones off gas once I have the 100 I need for speed, I leave the drones in and get overlord speed. That lets you get overlord speed out by about 6:20, meaning you have a full scout of the protoss base by the 6:45 mark. That lets you see all of their gas geysers, potential tech, ect ect, without any way of them denying you. So, that solves your problem with scouting, just remember to also get the roach warren by 5:45. As for cannon rushes, I always place my second overlord over my natural, and send a drone out to the 3rd to patrol behind the mineral line (only do this on maps where you can't take another third, otherwise, let them waste a couple pylons and cannons while you cancel and take the other third). If you see a probe posturing to start cannon rushing you, immediately pull 6+ drones to deal with the pylon. Put 4 drones to attack the pylon, and then put one drone on patrol around the pylon to block the cannon, while using the last drone to attack the probe. Putting drones on patrol around the pylon is one of the best ways to block a cannon rush, because it totally fucks with the AI of the probe, and easily lets you get those crucial few hits on it. I also like to scout with my 13th drone, because on 2 player maps it'll tell you whether or not you can go for the 3rd hatch or have to go with the 16 pool. O wow, some good advice right there. I like your Overload speed "trick", think I'll start using that with my build. | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
I was saying that I was going to steal that Overlord speed trick for myself. Any thoughts on using it in other MUs? ZvZ I can see it happening to save ovies from Mutas. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On December 28 2013 02:43 Snuggles wrote: EDIT: computer going nuts I swear... I was saying that I was going to steal that Overlord speed trick for myself. Any thoughts on using it in other MUs? ZvZ I can see it happening to save ovies from Mutas. I always open 6:30 ovie speed in ZvT. No idea how to be able to have defense up for hellbat drops, widow mine drops, banshees, 2base bio all in etc otherwise. | ||
DjayEl
France252 Posts
If you can post some replays, I could help out. I'm also a high master Zerg with a 57% winrate versus protoss at the moment. My preferred build against gateway expand is 15 hatch, 17 2nd hatch, 16 gas, 15 pool. Do you open hatch first every game as a metagame call, or do you drone scout to be able to pool first in case of FFE? Could you post a bunch of replays of yours ? I would be very interested, as well as many other people here I guess considering we all are more or less struggling against aggressive protosses atm  | ||
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mooseman1710
United States153 Posts
On December 28 2013 17:18 DjayEl wrote: Do you open hatch first every game as a metagame call, or do you drone scout to be able to pool first in case of FFE? Could you post a bunch of replays of yours ? I would be very interested, as well as many other people here I guess considering we all are more or less struggling against aggressive protosses atm to respond to ur first question, going hatch first or pool first will not put you far ahead or far behind against gateway expo or FFE or even nex first so dont be worrying about the hatch first/pool first business. if you find urself losingto cannon rush alot,just open up pool first every time. its the safest and will not put you behind. top korean zergs go blind 15 pool often | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On December 28 2013 02:43 Snuggles wrote: EDIT: computer going nuts I swear... I was saying that I was going to steal that Overlord speed trick for myself. Any thoughts on using it in other MUs? ZvZ I can see it happening to save ovies from Mutas. ZvT, you need to get overlord speed with muta play for Overseers anyway. A quick overlord speed is a bit unnecessary, mainly because all you really need to know is whether or not there's a third command center to really tell if something's coming your way. Most terrans don't hide their third CC, and even if they tried, it's bloody big and easy to find haha. ZvZ is a little bit different. I always get it around the 10-11 minute mark in roach v roach games. It's just to be able to see where attacks are coming from, 4/5th bases, ect ect. However, in Muta v Muta, I don't agree with it. I know it sounds weird, but even if you're losing 3-4 overlords to muta's, that's still probably not worth spending 100 gas, which ends up being basically one muta. You'll generally have a good amount of left over minerals anyway, so I don't think it's a huge commitment. I also always pull back/hide overlords at the 8 minute mark anyway (with the exception of one over the third to check saturation, one near the front of their base, and one to the side of their main for an overseer scout). If you place your overlords at strategic points in the map, you can prevent a scenario where you lose 5-6 of them to a muta move out. On December 28 2013 17:18 DjayEl wrote: + Show Spoiler + If you can post some replays, I could help out. I'm also a high master Zerg with a 57% winrate versus protoss at the moment. My preferred build against gateway expand is 15 hatch, 17 2nd hatch, 16 gas, 15 pool. Do you open hatch first every game as a metagame call, or do you drone scout to be able to pool first in case of FFE? Could you post a bunch of replays of yours ? I would be very interested, as well as many other people here I guess considering we all are more or less struggling against aggressive protosses atm It's mostly a metagame call, and due to the fact that I'm confident I can hold off a FFE cannon rush. Unless they commit two probes to a cannon rush, it's actually fairly easy to hold off if you properly use the patrol tricks. In addition to that, I always get to see if they're sending a second probe with the 13 drone scout, or if they're trying to cannon rush with a hidden forge in the main or something like that. And honestly, I've found that you can still win macro games despite large cannon rushes if you can force them to commit 2-3 cannons and 2 pylons, when you double expand behind it, at least on most maps. And in the other scenarios, properly timed baneling busts (I'll include a replay of one) can actually outright win you the game against a Protoss playing a bit too greedily after a cannon rush. And sure, I'm laddering most of today, so I'll pick out a few choice games backing up some of the things I've said here to share with you guys. | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On December 28 2013 21:16 CivilAnarchy wrote: However, in Muta v Muta, I don't agree with it. I know it sounds weird, but even if you're losing 3-4 overlords to muta's, that's still probably not worth spending 100 gas, which ends up being basically one muta. You'll generally have a good amount of left over minerals anyway, so I don't think it's a huge commitment. I also always pull back/hide overlords at the 8 minute mark anyway (with the exception of one over the third to check saturation, one near the front of their base, and one to the side of their main for an overseer scout). If you place your overlords at strategic points in the map, you can prevent a scenario where you lose 5-6 of them to a muta move out. Yeh I have to agree with this, muta vs muta is all about the gas count so you don't want to waste 100 gas to save minerals. I actually like getting OL speed early in ZvT, I like to get it after I get my ling speed. I go 17g, get speed and leave 1 guy in gas, this means that around the 6-6:10 mark I can research OL speed and then my OL can scout easily at the 7 minute mark. However this may just be because of my playstyle as the 7 minute scout causes my BO to branch in 3 different ways. | ||
Jowj
United States248 Posts
On December 28 2013 22:36 KelsierSC wrote: Yeh I have to agree with this, muta vs muta is all about the gas count so you don't want to waste 100 gas to save minerals. I actually like getting OL speed early in ZvT, I like to get it after I get my ling speed. I go 17g, get speed and leave 1 guy in gas, this means that around the 6-6:10 mark I can research OL speed and then my OL can scout easily at the 7 minute mark. However this may just be because of my playstyle as the 7 minute scout causes my BO to branch in 3 different ways. I think this is a reasonable thing to do on 4 player maps especially but somewhat unnecessary in 2 player maps as you can scout what build they're doing with 5:30/6 min OL pokes. If they have enough marines to deny your overlord pokes then even that tells you what they are doing combined with a ling scout at the front of their natural. | ||
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Purce
Italy31 Posts
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r1flEx
Belgium256 Posts
On December 29 2013 00:36 CMMBL wrote: Versus mech i have so many problems. If he goes tanks, hellbat, thors, i make swarmhosts, vipers, some roaches. I use blinding cloud on the tanks and the locusts do the rest. But, if the terran strats adding some vikings and especially ravens i'm in trouble. I make corruptors, spores, hidras, but slowly i die Whene he uses seeker missile on my corruptor i take them in the middle of the raven to damage them. This isn't enough. If i go hidras + ultras + vipers as suggested by Blade, my vipers can't reach the tanks because they are instakilled by the vikings. as soon as you see mech, go instant muta. you'll always be able to do some damage. then mass expand into huge pressure on all fronts. even try overlord dropping in his main mutas are useful the entire game imo | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On December 29 2013 00:36 CMMBL wrote: Versus mech i have so many problems. If he goes tanks, hellbat, thors, i make swarmhosts, vipers, some roaches. I use blinding cloud on the tanks and the locusts do the rest. But, if the terran strats adding some vikings and especially ravens i'm in trouble. I make corruptors, spores, hidras, but slowly i die Whene he uses seeker missile on my corruptor i take them in the middle of the raven to damage them. This isn't enough. If i go hidras + ultras + vipers as suggested by Blade, my vipers can't reach the tanks because they are instakilled by the vikings. You definitely need to post a replay so we can tell you exactly what's going wrong, but I think your problem might be a lack of infestors. Vikings do counter Vipers, but Infestor/Corrupter also deals with them very well. Your composition should probably be Swarm Host, Infestor, Corrupter, Viper with transitions into either Brood Lord or Ultra after the main engagement. Basically, you should micro as such: 1) Burrow Swarm Hosts, send wave of Locusts forward 2) Posture Vipers in a position to BC/Abduct 2a) If the Vikings don't move forward, Abduct stuff into the wave of locusts, then pull army back and wait. 3) If Vikings move forward, move Vipers back without abduct/BC, and fungal whichever vikings are forward 4) Split Corrupters (Thor splash) and attack vikings. 5) If the viking count is low enough, wait for another wave of SH, then move the vipers in. The key is to force the Terran to move his vikings forward, or get so scared that he allows units to be abducted. Based on which units you can minimize and keep low (Tanks or Thors), start building up a lategame comp. If he's going very heavy on tanks - Research Air Upgrades/Brood Lords and prioritize keeping the viking count low If he's going heavy on Thors, or you can't keep the viking count low - Research Melee Upgrades and get Ultras. If he's doing a raven transition, go for key fungals and mix in some Hydras/Corrupters with your Ultras. Note: Get queens with all of your lategame compositions. Transfusion really really stronk. Once you're 200/200, you have a bank sufficient for a full remax, and you feel you've picked off enough units, get your vipers to full energy, BC as many of their units as you possibly can, and engage at the best possible position your remaining SHs can get you. At this point, I also like to grab a Nydus, and if I can kill enough of his army, do a Roach/Hydra remax directly into his main to kill production. The big weakness of Mech is the remax time, so if you destroy most of his army and his production structures, the game is basically over. And if you don't like to deal with any of these sorts of things, there are plenty of roach timings/overlord drop timings that you can also use instead of that. Up to you entirely. Here's a few replays of different styles of dealing with Mech Play Game 1/2 KingKong uses a pretty transition heavy way of dealing with Mech with mixed results. Game 2 is a good model of Muta/SH though. Game 2 - DRG with SH/Infestor/Queen into Ultra, pretty effective. | ||
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Purce
Italy31 Posts
On December 29 2013 03:30 CivilAnarchy wrote: You definitely need to post a replay so we can tell you exactly what's going wrong, but I think your problem might be a lack of infestors. Vikings do counter Vipers, but Infestor/Corrupter also deals with them very well. Your composition should probably be Swarm Host, Infestor, Corrupter, Viper with transitions into either Brood Lord or Ultra after the main engagement. Basically, you should micro as such: 1) Burrow Swarm Hosts, send wave of Locusts forward 2) Posture Vipers in a position to BC/Abduct 2a) If the Vikings don't move forward, Abduct stuff into the wave of locusts, then pull army back and wait. 3) If Vikings move forward, move Vipers back without abduct/BC, and fungal whichever vikings are forward 4) Split Corrupters (Thor splash) and attack vikings. 5) If the viking count is low enough, wait for another wave of SH, then move the vipers in. The key is to force the Terran to move his vikings forward, or get so scared that he allows units to be abducted. Based on which units you can minimize and keep low (Tanks or Thors), start building up a lategame comp. If he's going very heavy on tanks - Research Air Upgrades/Brood Lords and prioritize keeping the viking count low If he's going heavy on Thors, or you can't keep the viking count low - Research Melee Upgrades and get Ultras. If he's doing a raven transition, go for key fungals and mix in some Hydras/Corrupters with your Ultras. Note: Get queens with all of your lategame compositions. Transfusion really really stronk. Once you're 200/200, you have a bank sufficient for a full remax, and you feel you've picked off enough units, get your vipers to full energy, BC as many of their units as you possibly can, and engage at the best possible position your remaining SHs can get you. At this point, I also like to grab a Nydus, and if I can kill enough of his army, do a Roach/Hydra remax directly into his main to kill production. The big weakness of Mech is the remax time, so if you destroy most of his army and his production structures, the game is basically over. And if you don't like to deal with any of these sorts of things, there are plenty of roach timings/overlord drop timings that you can also use instead of that. Up to you entirely. Here's a few replays of different styles of dealing with Mech Play Game 1/2 KingKong uses a pretty transition heavy way of dealing with Mech with mixed results. Game 2 is a good model of Muta/SH though. Game 2 - DRG with SH/Infestor/Queen into Ultra, pretty effective. Thank you. As soon as i can i will post a replay. | ||
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