EPTSo basically i know what to do but cant do it because im too slow
. Currently my ladder average is 202apm .. feels like enough?
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 140
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
So basically i know what to do but cant do it because im too slow . Currently my ladder average is 202apm .. feels like enough? | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On January 14 2014 03:28 Veriol wrote: Is there way to increase multitasking (especially creep/splits) other than mass gaming? Lately I noticed that I can think of actions to do but I just dont have enough time to do them; especially zvt creep/mine dodges. So basically i know what to do but cant do it because im too slow . Currently my ladder average is 202apm .. feels like enough? Some things only come through practice. I guess theoritically you could try and find a multitasking program that allows you do practice it. But realistically it is only going to do half of it. The best thing you could do is to just practice. Sorry that it does not answer your question. To be honest if you are averaging 200 apm you should have enough apm to do most actions, providing you are using your APM well, if that is 200 apm of good actions you are fine. If it is 50 good actions and 150 spam then you need to work on it a lot. I run at 200 apm on average and am almost masters on Korea, I do not feel as though my speed is what is stopping me from hitting masters/grand masters, although with more playing I am seeing my speed increase. What I did was break down my most important actions Inject/Creep/Spend Larva/Check Supply/Control Army pick three and repeat those the entire game, as your muscle memory and habitual actions kick in increase the number. Start adding in more, checking overlord spread/checking gas drones/mineral patches. The more actions you fit into your 'habitual rotation' the more your APM will increase. The most important thing to remember however is that your actions should be spent well, using actions for the sake of using actions to increase your speed is good and helps improve your speed/precision/muscle memory. However, there comes a point when you need to be doing things for a reason (such as spamming being used to check production cycles/inject timings etc). Pros do not spam for zero reason. Rather they spam to walk up/run production cycles/check injects/repeat muscle memory. Hope this helps, sorry there is no simple 'do this' answer to the apm multitasking question. | ||
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
On January 14 2014 04:02 zasg wrote: Some things only come through practice. I guess theoritically you could try and find a multitasking program that allows you do practice it. But realistically it is only going to do half of it. The best thing you could do is to just practice. Sorry that it does not answer your question. To be honest if you are averaging 200 apm you should have enough apm to do most actions, providing you are using your APM well, if that is 200 apm of good actions you are fine. If it is 50 good actions and 150 spam then you need to work on it a lot. I run at 200 apm on average and am almost masters on Korea, I do not feel as though my speed is what is stopping me from hitting masters/grand masters, although with more playing I am seeing my speed increase. What I did was break down my most important actions Inject/Creep/Spend Larva/Check Supply/Control Army pick three and repeat those the entire game, as your muscle memory and habitual actions kick in increase the number. Start adding in more, checking overlord spread/checking gas drones/mineral patches. The more actions you fit into your 'habitual rotation' the more your APM will increase. The most important thing to remember however is that your actions should be spent well, using actions for the sake of using actions to increase your speed is good and helps improve your speed/precision/muscle memory. However, there comes a point when you need to be doing things for a reason (such as spamming being used to check production cycles/inject timings etc). Pros do not spam for zero reason. Rather they spam to walk up/run production cycles/check injects/repeat muscle memory. Hope this helps, sorry there is no simple 'do this' answer to the apm multitasking question. Yeah that mostly covers my idea. What usually happens game is fine aka I have my rythm, but then suddenly I need to do 4 tasks at once (ie inject, creep, drop, push-out where I need to fight) and I just loose it; do my inject deal with drop but feel bad that i left out the creep and simply amoved the fight because i had no time to manage it. Worst case scenario Im looking at replay and see that I should have manage the fight better and i lost because of it >.>. I dont think Im awful but im still not even GM (I usually hover around top100 masters NA/EU); and I think this what limits me most now. I have the concept that you should focus on one thing or on certain course of actions that you bind together. I guess Im asking more for crysis management or how to deal with those overload situations where I need to do X things and I only manage to do X-n. Maybe I just focus on one thing too much (I dont see myself spamming trough game), I rather go trough my "cycle" and maybe its too slow. What think happens is I do my course of actions and do it in order im used to rather than checking what should be done right now .. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On January 14 2014 04:16 Veriol wrote: Yeah that mostly covers my idea. What usually happens game is fine aka I have my rythm, but then suddenly I need to do 4 tasks at once (ie inject, creep, drop, push-out where I need to fight) and I just loose it; do my inject deal with drop but feel bad that i left out the creep and simply amoved the fight because i had no time to manage it. Worst case scenario Im looking at replay and see that I should have manage the fight better and i lost because of it >.>. I dont think Im awful but im still not even GM (I usually hover around top100 masters NA/EU); and I think this what limits me most now. I have the concept that you should focus on one thing or on certain course of actions that you bind together. I guess Im asking more for crysis management or how to deal with those overload situations where I need to do X things and I only manage to do X-n. Maybe I just focus on one thing too much (I dont see myself spamming trough game), I rather go trough my "cycle" and maybe its too slow. What think happens is I do my course of actions and do it in order im used to rather than checking what should be done right now .. Crysis management is probably the hardest when it comes to apm. Interestingly if you watch pro PoV games via replay or vod you will notice in crysis what they do first. It can be helpful to watch that and compare to your own. Watch a replay, when you are getting pushed, what is the first three things you do? Compare that to a replay of JD or soulkey from last years WCS replays. If you get your priority set I think you will begin to see an improvement in those moments. Often things like creep spread will get knocked down the priority list and that is okay, ultimately we can only do so many actions at once, the priority list enables you to check if you are spending your actions well at the right time. | ||
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mooseman1710
United States153 Posts
habitation station: not good for mutalisks in zvz? in zvz roach wars, when do you add 5th/6th gas, infestors/hydras, and 4th and 5th bases? | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On January 14 2014 09:46 mooseman1710 wrote: 2 questions. habitation station: not good for mutalisks in zvz? in zvz roach wars, when do you add 5th/6th gas, infestors/hydras, and 4th and 5th bases? I won't comment on habitation station, I downvote it, can't stand gold bases and maps that are structured that way. Gives me horrible memories of http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Scrap_Station. In pure roach verse roach getting a 6th gas isn't necessary. Take your fifth when you start droning your third. 8 drones at third add a gas. If you are aiming to go late game with infestor/hydra take your 6th once you finish droning your third. With fourths and fifths unless you are playing mutas/ultras you do not need to rush. Aim to take your fourth when your main minerals are getting low. You do not want to go over 55-65 drones anyway so taking a fourth or fifth before you actually need it is only giving yourself more ground to cover. To make it short: 5th gas after 8 drones on third 6th gas after 16 drones on third 4th base when main is running low (or early for gas if going muta/ultra) 5th base when second is running low | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On January 14 2014 09:46 mooseman1710 wrote: 2 questions. habitation station: not good for mutalisks in zvz? in zvz roach wars, when do you add 5th/6th gas, infestors/hydras, and 4th and 5th bases? Depends a little on what opener you do but if you're doing standard single upgrade roaches, you'll stay on 3 gas until you have saturated your third, which is when you grab your 4th gas. 5th and 6th gases totally depend on when you're going to transition out of pure roach. That will most likely be when you're near maxed. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On January 13 2014 21:27 Regtic wrote: I mentioned in a previous post that I knew about them, they always just had some disadvantage and I wanted to find a better setup. Only thing that this setup is missing is a rapidfire key but I have no idea how to set that up. Oh, sorry, didn't read properly it seems. Rapid fire is set by: options --> hotkeys --> global --> unit management --> choose ability or AI target. Keep left click, and add your rapid fire as alternative, in my case Q. I then bind my raipd fire abilities to Q as well, such as infested terran. Then, in game, I select my infestors and hold down Q. The game will register a string of Qs. The first one will be interpreted as "throw infested terran" and will send the game into "chose a target mode". The next Q registered will now be interpreted through your "chose target" that you just set up and will throw the infested terran to the location where you have your mouse. Third Q will be the second infested terran command, etc. IN practice, hold down Q and pull the mouse across the screen to create a string of infested terrans.  You may want to change the settings (in windows) on how quickly it should start repeating when you hold down a button, and how many presses per second it does when repeating. But maybe you already set that up for building units from larvae. hfhf. | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
http://drop.sc/371093 He opened 1 gate 2 gas FE > Stargate, I scouted. Took only minimal dmg from random overlords and drone transfers. I opened 14p 16h gas > speed, so I didn't need roaches and would do better against 4 gate stargate or anything pressurey. Ofc, I ended up not getting a fantastic macro lead because he never did. I made about 8 scouting lings and saw his 3rd with a small force of sentries/zealots, probably need 30 lings to break it (?). Wasn't sure if I should have made lings and attacked his 3rd (check replay, you tell me) - so I just went back to droning/teching. Wanted to go mutas, but I was hesitant, died to 3 colossus timing, didn't have roach speed so make panic roaches for nothing and died. Only had 3 SH out when he hit his timing, as my 3 sh's were out I checked my bank in the replay and it was at 300 minerals, so I wasn't floating. Adjustment questions: Should I have made corruptor / roach my composition upon scouting a typical robo followup, or should swarm hosts with good macro be able to get out in time in critical mass to defend? | ||
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On January 16 2014 23:07 DarKcS wrote: Not sure on ZVP mid game composition.. http://drop.sc/371093 He opened 1 gate 2 gas FE > Stargate, I scouted. Took only minimal dmg from random overlords and drone transfers. I opened 14p 16h gas > speed, so I didn't need roaches and would do better against 4 gate stargate or anything pressurey. Ofc, I ended up not getting a fantastic macro lead because he never did. I made about 8 scouting lings and saw his 3rd with a small force of sentries/zealots, probably need 30 lings to break it (?). Wasn't sure if I should have made lings and attacked his 3rd (check replay, you tell me) - so I just went back to droning/teching. Wanted to go mutas, but I was hesitant, died to 3 colossus timing, didn't have roach speed so make panic roaches for nothing and died. Only had 3 SH out when he hit his timing, as my 3 sh's were out I checked my bank in the replay and it was at 300 minerals, so I wasn't floating. Adjustment questions: Should I have made corruptor / roach my composition upon scouting a typical robo followup, or should swarm hosts with good macro be able to get out in time in critical mass to defend? You could have attacked his third when you scouted it but it was not a gauranteed kill so droning was equally a good option. However, you only kind of half droned, when that third went down at that time with the little defense he had you either needed to commit to kill it or drone HARD. By not doing either of those you ended up a bit behind. As for composition you were kind of stuck on nothing. It looked like you were heading for a ling/ultra style with the upgrades you went for. However, you seemingly abandoned that, if you are going to go for 1/1 melee carapace then you really need to follow that up and fast, fast 2/2, fast hive, fast ultras/infestors. If you do not do that you will end up with a push coming that lings will not hold and any other tech you make will be useless (ie unupgraded roaches). I think you need to pick a mid game composition and stick to it, worry about going muta/sh after that. If you want to go lings then you need to rush out those infestors with corrupters a possiblity incase of a collosus push. The other big thing I noticed is that you have basically zero map presence yet a bunch of lings. Your lings are sitting at his possible fourth with a burrowed ling there doing nothing. Get active with them, burrow one infront of his normal walking paths to your base. Constantly dart into his third and check out what is army looks like asking questions like 'does it look like he is poised to attack?' 'what is his unit composition?' 'What do I need to defend his attack?' If he is getting ready to attack, what can I do to stop him attacking? Set up counters etc. The problem is you do not see his attack coming till it is on your door, almost every time a protoss does a push out like that and turns up at your door with you having zero units ready you will lose. Need advance warning to defend/try and send him back to his base. Imagine if you had build 50 lings instead of that fourth base (seeing a three colossus ball pushing out) and countered forcing him to return to your base? It would have given you time to get another 10 swarm host out and some corruptors, game changes completely. To summarise: Go for one mid game composition, commit to it and do it properly. If you have units, use them! Scout/burrow/knowledge is key. Map presence is vital. | ||
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Haku
Germany550 Posts
Before that i played JDs gasless roach +1/+1 style but i don´t like it anymore, defending against early ling attacks or even with banes wiithout gas. Muta vs Muta also does not fit my style and i want to use roaches more. Can anyone tell me a "high level" Build order for a gas into roach style? I don´t know the timings with gas, just without and maybe anyone here has a good idea | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On January 19 2014 20:38 EXRNaRa wrote: Hey guys! I am currently in High Diamond League and playing a Muta vs Muta build in ZvZ. Before that i played JDs gasless roach +1/+1 style but i don´t like it anymore, defending against early ling attacks or even with banes wiithout gas. Muta vs Muta also does not fit my style and i want to use roaches more. Can anyone tell me a "high level" Build order for a gas into roach style? I don´t know the timings with gas, just without and maybe anyone here has a good idea Can I ask (and it may have public interest) if you have BO or guide for the JD gasless roach +1/+1? I am nowhere near diamond, so it should be fine for me. :o) Thanks. | ||
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Haku
Germany550 Posts
On January 19 2014 20:55 Cascade wrote: Can I ask (and it may have public interest) if you have BO or guide for the JD gasless roach +1/+1? I am nowhere near diamond, so it should be fine for me. :o) Thanks. There you go: http://lowkotv.com/jaedongs-zerg-versus-zerg-build-order/ | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On January 19 2014 20:38 EXRNaRa wrote: Hey guys! I am currently in High Diamond League and playing a Muta vs Muta build in ZvZ. Before that i played JDs gasless roach +1/+1 style but i don´t like it anymore, defending against early ling attacks or even with banes wiithout gas. Muta vs Muta also does not fit my style and i want to use roaches more. Can anyone tell me a "high level" Build order for a gas into roach style? I don´t know the timings with gas, just without and maybe anyone here has a good idea Gas into roach +1/+1 check my replay out. http://drop.sc/371440 I am ThePastor. Unfortunately it is Diamond verses Zerg so it was a bit of a stomping. One thing to notice in the replay also is that I build a second spine which I normally never do, I misread and thought he was doing an all in. Apart from that the rest of it should be fairly straight forward. Feel free to ask with any questions on it. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On January 19 2014 20:55 Cascade wrote: Can I ask (and it may have public interest) if you have BO or guide for the JD gasless roach +1/+1? I am nowhere near diamond, so it should be fine for me. :o) Thanks. I don't think he dropped that because it doesn't work in diamond+. It's more of a stylistic choice. | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
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Waise
3165 Posts
On January 20 2014 10:11 learning88 wrote: In ZvP, when does one go Hydra/Ling mid-game? Do you go that route when Toss opens with Stargate, regardless of Gate expand or FFE? Would it be feasible to transition into SH/Hydra/Roach until you hit Hive or do you just go to Hive during the attack on their third and go to Roach/Hydra/Viper? usually you transition into muta from hydra/ling because you're using tons of gas-free lings as a meat shield for the hydras to do damage. if protoss fends off your hydra/ling you want to get out with your hydras, spend your minerals (more lings, drones, static D, macro hatches, expansions, whatever the situation calls for), then try to catch protoss out on the map with a muta ball switch when they don't have enough anti-air to deal with it, ideally doing a lot of damage to their army if not killing it outright. if you can't engage the army, you have to try to pull it back or force a base race by going into their main to kill infrastructure or another base to target probes i don't really see the point of transitioning into roaches from ANYTHING unless you've done big damage to protoss's army and you can just remax roaches to go for a quick kill. by mid-lategame roaches are supply inefficient and not really good against anything protoss has except zealot warpins (which you should defend with spine crawlers instead). i would be spending your minerals adding static defense and queens for creep spread/transfuse/countering void rays instead of building useless roaches, because your endgame is swarm hosts. how soon you need to make them is about whether protoss has templar tech. if toss has a deathball with templar and the game is even, you need swarm hosts, period. templar counter a huge portion of your tech tree, they will storm roach/hydra and feedback vipers and infestors while their lasers are roasting your army too. if you really think you can hit a timing by adding roaches and vipers and relying on abduct after already opening hydra/ling, you can try it, but it's something i would only try if i had 100% confirmation that templar wouldn't be a threat when i'm hitting my timing. if it doesn't work, i don't know what your transition is going to be, because all your gas probably went into hive and vipers | ||
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Azoryen
Portugal242 Posts
I've played games where the unit lost tab is extremely one sided in P favour and it feels very unfair, because all he is doing is building a deathball and spamming forcefields. Here's one illustration. It's not me playing but it's something that has happened to me. http://drop.sc/371289 How can I avoid this? How can I make sure that if I have the better macro and skills I will not die to this sort of massacre engagements? | ||
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Incand
143 Posts
On January 20 2014 22:35 Azoryen wrote: I'd like to know a cost efficient unit composition for ZvP. I've played games where the unit lost tab is extremely one sided in P favour and it feels very unfair, because all he is doing is building a deathball and spamming forcefields. Here's one illustration. It's not me playing but it's something that has happened to me. http://drop.sc/371289 How can I avoid this? How can I make sure that if I have the better macro and skills I will not die to this sort of massacre engagements? Really wouldve been better if you provided your own replay but im just going to commentate on the one you provided instead. There were a few big problems in that game and the first was to not adjust to it being a gateway expand. Getting an early gas for speed is highly recommended against it. It's can also be okey to play normal but with an earlier roach warren but I find that a weaker option. The zerg seemed scared all game and droned up superslow not knowing if something is coming or not even if the small core zealot pressure didnt do much while the protoss felt safe all the time since you had no gas and took a rather greedy third. Actually the protoss had better economy/tech all game. The second thing was the composition. You can't just stay on lairtech roach/hydra forever. The zerg were 2/2 vs a +3 protoss with several colossus and adding in corruptors... its just not enough. Roach hydra corruptor is a pretty bad composition. What wouldve been a better option would be to go to hive and add vipers and maybe eventually ultras or a few broodlords or add a few swarmhosts to tank for you. Or if you really have a better economy going mutas is also an option. Zerg can trade cost efficient vs protoss it's just.. you can't with that composition. Check out blade's overview of zerg http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428262 There you just get a few swarmhost and then tech into viper/ultra and as long as you pressure the protoss and take good engagements you will most likely be very cost efficient. I use that style and can win when im down bases to protoss while seeing him lose double my resources. If you wan't to go heavy roach hydra adding in vipers is a lot better option then corruptor. You can add corruptor too later if the colossus count goes to high but with that style you need to keep the protoss down as they will eventually crush your army if you don't trade. You could also play the swarmhost turtle style if you can survive with yourself doing that but personally it takes all the fun out of the game and it's not all that easy to play either. There also was a game yesterday in nationwars between snute and Titan where the protoss lost 3-4 times as much resources which at least showcase the zerg can be very costefficient. And even not playing that style having a few swarmhosts and vipers can at least make you trade evenly. | ||
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