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On January 20 2014 23:34 Incand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:35 Azoryen wrote:I'd like to know a cost efficient unit composition for ZvP. I've played games where the unit lost tab is extremely one sided in P favour and it feels very unfair, because all he is doing is building a deathball and spamming forcefields. Here's one illustration. It's not me playing but it's something that has happened to me. http://drop.sc/371289How can I avoid this? How can I make sure that if I have the better macro and skills I will not die to this sort of massacre engagements? Really wouldve been better if you provided your own replay but im just going to commentate on the one you provided instead. There were a few big problems in that game and the first was to not adjust to it being a gateway expand. Getting an early gas for speed is highly recommended against it. It's can also be okey to play normal but with an earlier roach warren but I find that a weaker option. The zerg seemed scared all game and droned up superslow not knowing if something is coming or not even if the small core zealot pressure didnt do much while the protoss felt safe all the time since you had no gas and took a rather greedy third. Actually the protoss had better economy/tech all game. The second thing was the composition. You can't just stay on lairtech roach/hydra forever. The zerg were 2/2 vs a +3 protoss with several colossus and adding in corruptors... its just not enough. Roach hydra corruptor is a pretty bad composition. What wouldve been a better option would be to go to hive and add vipers and maybe eventually ultras or a few broodlords or add a few swarmhosts to tank for you. Or if you really have a better economy going mutas is also an option. Zerg can trade cost efficient vs protoss it's just.. you can't with that composition. Check out blade's overview of zerg http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428262 There you just get a few swarmhost and then tech into viper/ultra and as long as you pressure the protoss and take good engagements you will most likely be very cost efficient. I use that style and can win when im down bases to protoss while seeing him lose double my resources. If you wan't to go heavy roach hydra adding in vipers is a lot better option then corruptor. You can add corruptor too later if the colossus count goes to high but with that style you need to keep the protoss down as they will eventually crush your army if you don't trade. You could also play the swarmhost turtle style if you can survive with yourself doing that but personally it takes all the fun out of the game and it's not all that easy to play either. There also was a game yesterday in nationwars between snute and Titan where the protoss lost 3-4 times as much resources which at least showcase the zerg can be very costefficient. And even not playing that style having a few swarmhosts and vipers can at least make you trade evenly.
Thanks for that.
I don't like using swarm hosts, which may be what's missing from my composition to keep me alive until hive.
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Speaking of ZvP compositions, how do I play lategame (swarm host/viper/hydra/queen) on big maps like Frost or maps with many attack paths like Heavy Rain? I get 4 bases, trade some but I don't know how to get more bases/use my army without just camping on top of a bunch of spores. When I try to move around on the map, usually I get outmanouvered or have to back off with my swarm hosts, my creep gets cleared and protoss have map control and can expand everywhere while I just sit and don't do anything because I have no clue about how to play ZvP.
I just played 2 games against the same protoss, first losing on Frost then winning on imbalanced Polar Night where you can just abuse swarm hosts to an extreme.
First game (loss on Frost)
Second game (win on Polar Night)
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On January 21 2014 00:24 Azoryen wrote:
Thanks for that.
I don't like using swarm hosts, which may be what's missing from my composition to keep me alive until hive.
You don't have to use swarmhosts if you don't want to. You can go roach hydra viper as a timing and later add ultras and/or broodlords. But making a few swarmhosts can be quite effective and you don't have to play a turtle style for that. You can use them agressively to tank/force engagements. They're somewhat hard/different to get used too at first but it's really just remember to never let them die. Like run away with them if their army comes to closer and can be quite fun using when playing agressive.
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On January 21 2014 03:19 Incand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 00:24 Azoryen wrote:
Thanks for that.
I don't like using swarm hosts, which may be what's missing from my composition to keep me alive until hive. You don't have to use swarmhosts if you don't want to. You can go roach hydra viper as a timing and later add ultras and/or broodlords. But making a few swarmhosts can be quite effective and you don't have to play a turtle style for that. You can use them agressively to tank/force engagements. They're somewhat hard/different to get used too at first but it's really just remember to never let them die. Like run away with them if their army comes to closer and can be quite fun using when playing agressive.
If you are going to transition from roach/hyda/viper I think you are best going into BL first while upgrading melee. 0/3 ultras are good but not THAT good, and to get to them you have to sack a lot of army, leaving yourself open to a timing. You are better off to bleed in 6-8 Broodlord's while upgrading melee attacks and then you can trade your roaches out for ultras a lot safer because you know you have some good army to fall on to.
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On January 21 2014 01:51 Zheryn wrote:Speaking of ZvP compositions, how do I play lategame (swarm host/viper/hydra/queen) on big maps like Frost or maps with many attack paths like Heavy Rain? I get 4 bases, trade some but I don't know how to get more bases/use my army without just camping on top of a bunch of spores. When I try to move around on the map, usually I get outmanouvered or have to back off with my swarm hosts, my creep gets cleared and protoss have map control and can expand everywhere while I just sit and don't do anything because I have no clue about how to play ZvP. I just played 2 games against the same protoss, first losing on Frost then winning on imbalanced Polar Night where you can just abuse swarm hosts to an extreme. First game (loss on Frost)Second game (win on Polar Night)
Maps like heavy rain are fine for swarm hosts, the biggest thing you need to make sure you do is keep tabs on their army at all times. Burrow lings around the map, use overlord speed and spread overlords every where. Push your creep as hard as possible. If you have mass vision you can counter harder maps to play on.
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So I'm trying to use swarm hosts for the first time but having some trouble controling the units.
For example, when I tell them to burrow, they all burrow, even those that are halfway across the map.
Should I hotkey them only when they arrive to the rally point? I always hotkey units on eggs.
And I also have them spawning locusts and they just sit there because I get distracted.
Any tricks on how to control these units effectively?
On a different subject, how do Muta base trades work?
I read that with mutas you should base trade the Protoss if he attacks instead of going for direct engagements, but isn't a deathball much quicker at killing bases? And how do you reinforce if the mutas are getting killes as soon as they pop because his stalkers are surrounding your hacthes?
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On January 21 2014 08:58 Azoryen wrote:
So I'm trying to use swarm hosts for the first time but having some trouble controling the units.
For example, when I tell them to burrow, they all burrow, even those that are halfway across the map.
Should I hotkey them only when they arrive to the rally point? I always hotkey units on eggs.
And I also have them spawning locusts and they just sit there because I get distracted.
Any tricks on how to control these units effectively?
On a different subject, how do Muta base trades work?
I read that with mutas you should base trade the Protoss if he attacks instead of going for direct engagements, but isn't a deathball much quicker at killing bases? And how do you reinforce if the mutas are getting killes as soon as they pop because his stalkers are surrounding your hacthes?
I am just a little bit ahead of you, having started using them more only recently. I also hotkey eggs, but switched to hotkeying them at rally point instead. I think a better option, that I just switched to, is to hotkey the eggs, but ctrl-select only the SHs at the front when you burrow. That way you get the HSs to the fight asap, but will not burrow them halfway. Interested in how more experienced players (such as any player above bronze  ) handle this minor annoyance. 
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On January 17 2014 02:59 Veriol wrote:
In the (recent) style of PvZ - aka VR into storm. When would you say pre-storm timing should hit? At 12 minutes?
You should be able to get 2/2 upgrades roach hydra, and hit exactly at 13:30. (roach speed, burrow, and movement) (and hydra range)
If you get a decent concave. you will win instantly
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From the replay that Zheryn showed (the second one where he won), couldn't the toss have won by sacking his third? Just wait for the locusts to respawn and move the toss ball and attack zerg army from the left side. The locusts would be attacking at toss third. The toss would lose all of the collosi due to abducts into the corruptor and spore crawler but he had storm (I believe) and enough stalkers to take out everything since the locusts would not be there right?
I've been trying to use the SH/corruptor/hydra army and after they avoid my locusts, they just come and attack me from the side and then i lose everything because its too late to retreat since my units are slow and they have blink to catch up. The only composition that works for me is mutas but I don't want to keep relying on them or base racing.
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On January 21 2014 08:58 Azoryen wrote:
So I'm trying to use swarm hosts for the first time but having some trouble controling the units.
For example, when I tell them to burrow, they all burrow, even those that are halfway across the map.
Should I hotkey them only when they arrive to the rally point? I always hotkey units on eggs.
And I also have them spawning locusts and they just sit there because I get distracted.
Any tricks on how to control these units effectively?
Generally speaking I am hotkeying most of my eggs as wells, situationally I will not. What I will do (unless I know that the SH are all together) is select my SW hotkey (2) move command to where I want them to be positioned. Once the SH arrive I will select the ones on my screen. If you use your hot key to issue rally command you will end up with your SH running off as you would have discovered. The other option which fixes all your problems is to use the specific rally command with a left click. This will not issue a command to your egged or newly hatched SW. So they will just move to wherever your rally is or where you last right clicked.
On January 21 2014 08:58 Azoryen wrote:
On a different subject, how do Muta base trades work?
I read that with mutas you should base trade the Protoss if he attacks instead of going for direct engagements, but isn't a deathball much quicker at killing bases? And how do you reinforce if the mutas are getting killes as soon as they pop because his stalkers are surrounding your hacthes?
The idea is that because you went mutas he has to wait quite awhile before pushing out. Every time he starts heading out you should be attacking his probe lines behind him. Ideally you want to be mass expanding and banking while doing this. Eventually you will push the protoss to the point where he will just get so frustrated that his only option is to attack you. You have two options, engage or not. If you cannot kill his army you attack his base. As soon as this step happens you do two things IMMEDIATELY. Send drones to the bases he is not heading towards (during mass expanding you should be taking bases on opposite sides of map). And spine up your main like crazy, I mean throw down like 20 spines. He will kill them but it will slow him down a lot. When you create mutas during a base trade (if all your hatches are on one hotkey) manually go to a hatch and create mutas (where they will spawn in safely) do NOT add them to your hotkey as they will often fly over something and die. Send them a move command to a dead space somewhere safe and add them later. Keep expanding behind his army/in his base/anywhere you can find some dead space. Kill his base before him and any time he kills a base build another one.
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My biggest struggle in ZvT match ups are against 4Ms. Does anyone know if there's a guide to give me some guidelines on the best way to transit into late games?
Thanks!
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On January 21 2014 04:50 zasg wrote:
If you are going to transition from roach/hyda/viper I think you are best going into BL first while upgrading melee. 0/3 ultras are good but not THAT good, and to get to them you have to sack a lot of army, leaving yourself open to a timing. You are better off to bleed in 6-8 Broodlord's while upgrading melee attacks and then you can trade your roaches out for ultras a lot safer because you know you have some good army to fall on to.
Ultras are suprisingly good even without upgrades. The key is really to get them the armor upgrade. and they most likely be 1/5 if you plan that transition. And theyre more something you add in to have in front of your roach hydra viper force to tank then switch into mass ultras. But i agree that broodlords can be more effective. The key is really like you say to make only 6-8 broodlords.. more and your army just gets to slow and when he gets a tempest out they will die anyway.
On January 21 2014 08:58 Azoryen wrote:
So I'm trying to use swarm hosts for the first time but having some trouble controling the units.
For example, when I tell them to burrow, they all burrow, even those that are halfway across the map.
Should I hotkey them only when they arrive to the rally point? I always hotkey units on eggs.
And I also have them spawning locusts and they just sit there because I get distracted.
Any tricks on how to control these units effectively?
What I do is hotkey the eggs and most of the times actually burrow all but then unborrow all after they spawned locust so the rallying ones catch up between waves. Since you want the locust to spawn at the same time anyway i don't see much downside too it. If there's a lot of sh rallied together i usually just ctrl them on screen that arrived and just burrow those. Hotkeying eggs is so good with.. well everything else and not bad with sh that I feel it's better to stick with it. But more of a personal preference i guess. Also very important to keep track of those arriving swarmhosts so they don't walk in and suicide.
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What's the best way to deal with warp prism harassment if I don't have mutas?
The warp prisms can stay around my base forever and it's hard to cover everything with spines.
Also, how can I defend against the sentry drop blocking my ramp?
This tactic feels so much like an exploit, it's disgusting. Am I supposed to have vision of the entire map to see the warp prism coming? Because the build leading to it is not exactly easy to scout because it looks similar to immortal sentry all-in or even Protoss taking a late 3rd with more units.
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On January 22 2014 03:21 Azoryen wrote:
What's the best way to deal with warp prism harassment if I don't have mutas?
The warp prisms can stay around my base forever and it's hard to cover everything with spines.
Also, how can I defend against the sentry drop blocking my ramp?
This tactic feels so much like an exploit, it's disgusting. Am I supposed to have vision of the entire map to see the warp prism coming? Because the build leading to it is not exactly easy to scout because it looks similar to immortal sentry all-in or even Protoss taking a late 3rd with more units.
Warp Prisms:
#1 build static d
#2 leave 4 hydras where you know the WP is on a separate control group (drg often does this)
Sentry Drop:
Biggest thing is to know it is coming. If you know it is coming you leave units where the sentries will drop out. If you do not see it coming and it happens the best thing you can do is grab ALL your mains drones and attack the sentries. Queen attacking warp prism. If you can quickly kill the sentries then you are fine. Run away from zealots at all costs but try and focus the sentries. Also when you build units make sure you build them from your main manually (if you do a single hotkey for hatches) and not build them elsewhere.
You can scout the difference, when you send an overlord in normally there will be WAY less sentries then normal and obviously zero immortals.
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On January 22 2014 04:57 zasg wrote:
Sentry Drop:
Biggest thing is to know it is coming. If you know it is coming you leave units where the sentries will drop out. If you do not see it coming and it happens the best thing you can do is grab ALL your mains drones and attack the sentries. Queen attacking warp prism. If you can quickly kill the sentries then you are fine. Run away from zealots at all costs but try and focus the sentries. Also when you build units make sure you build them from your main manually (if you do a single hotkey for hatches) and not build them elsewhere.
You can scout the difference, when you send an overlord in normally there will be WAY less sentries then normal and obviously zero immortals.
Making spines in main also works nicely if you didn't see it coming. And remember to produce the low larva units from the main.. like roaches and the lings from other bases.
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For ZvT, terran's expo should be seen at like 4:30 right? If I don't see an expo, how should I react? What should I expect? I can only think of:
1. Banshee and Hellion aggression: response would be to make Queens, Spore and Spine crawlers near your hatches.
2. Blue Flame Hellion: make Spines and RW when scouted.
3. Hellion and Marine attack: make spine and block off entrance.
4. Widow Mine drop: make Spore and Spines at hatches.
Are those the correct responses? I'm in Silver league and it seems I play against a lot of 1-base play and I'm so used to just a standard macro game.
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On January 22 2014 08:34 learning88 wrote:
For ZvT, terran's expo should be seen at like 4:30 right? If I don't see an expo, how should I react? What should I expect? I can only think of:
1. Banshee and Hellion aggression: response would be to make Queens, Spore and Spine crawlers near your hatches.
2. Blue Flame Hellion: make Spines and RW when scouted.
3. Hellion and Marine attack: make spine and block off entrance.
4. Widow Mine drop: make Spore and Spines at hatches.
Are those the correct responses? I'm in Silver league and it seems I play against a lot of 1-base play and I'm so used to just a standard macro game.
If he's going for a 1 rax expand his cc should start around 3:40-4min. The problem is that he could make the cc in the main althought this is pretty uncommon so you can't be 100% just from not seeing it at the natural. If he didn't open reaper (no reapers in your base!!) send the 4 lings imediately over to his natural. You may be able to delay a cc or scout whats going on by running up that ramp. Also if you see no second cc I recommend sending in and overlord at around the 5min mark instead of the 6-6:30 you would send it in against an expanding terran. Hopefully you will se something with it before marines prevent scouting. Note that if he have a lot of marines (4+) you know he must have more than one barracks so you pretty much succeded in scouting that some sort of marinepush is coming.
As for your respoinses i would say they all work. However the good thing here is you don't always need to know exactly what is coming just that something is. Queens are awesome at defending ANYTHING so what I do is just make more queens as they dont cut into your econ as much and help vs anything. If you see an early starport one spore each mineral line is always great seeing it's either banshee or widow mine drop (this is very true for an expanding terran too if you see starport before 7min). The only thing i like to add is if it's an helion marauder allin (if you see like 2 rax with techlab) you want more spines. I usually seem to make 3 and 2 extra queens and then just lings.
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On January 22 2014 08:34 learning88 wrote:
For ZvT, terran's expo should be seen at like 4:30 right? If I don't see an expo, how should I react? What should I expect? I can only think of:
1. Banshee and Hellion aggression: response would be to make Queens, Spore and Spine crawlers near your hatches.
2. Blue Flame Hellion: make Spines and RW when scouted.
3. Hellion and Marine attack: make spine and block off entrance.
4. Widow Mine drop: make Spore and Spines at hatches.
Are those the correct responses? I'm in Silver league and it seems I play against a lot of 1-base play and I'm so used to just a standard macro game.
If it makes you feel better eventually as you get higher T stop doing 1 base as they are bad.
1 - Spore yes, queens yes, spine crawlers not needed.
2 - Include evo's to block the front of your natural then when they try and run in you can throw a evo there
3 - I would not rush to block the natural in this situation, if you block it the marines can use it as a funnel, debatable what is correct
4 - 1 spine and spore at each base is great
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Hi everyone, I need your help in ZvT against mech.
I lose every single game to a-moving gold making Terrans. I'm diamond level, my winrate in ZvT vs bio is 80%, was 75% pre-patch. I mean, I get over 160 apm not spamming and all. Juste give me a roadmap, and I'll do it.
For a reason I don't understand, mech is making me tilt : so much thing I tried, so many possibilities and still I end up loosing, even with 10k bank and whole map mining and tech switching like crazy. Is there something safe I can do, somewhat standard way to play against it? I saw blade's video, some other content, and it's great but for some reason it just doesn't work for me. I need something more specific, like timings, etc. Please!
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EPT
