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On January 23 2014 02:59 DjayEl wrote:
Hi everyone, I need your help in ZvT against mech.
I lose every single game to a-moving gold making Terrans. I'm diamond level, my winrate in ZvT vs bio is 80%, was 75% pre-patch. I mean, I get over 160 apm not spamming and all. Juste give me a roadmap, and I'll do it.
For a reason I don't understand, mech is making me tilt : so much thing I tried, so many possibilities and still I end up loosing, even with 10k bank and whole map mining and tech switching like crazy. Is there something safe I can do, somewhat standard way to play against it? I saw blade's video, some other content, and it's great but for some reason it just doesn't work for me. I need something more specific, like timings, etc. Please!
Wow it is like reading my diary from 3 weeks ago. This exact thing happened to me. I actually got so pissed off I went 14/14 every game against Terran. Made for a lot of very enjoyable games. Ended up going 14/14 ling pressure into roach pressure into mutas. The Terran's never had a chance to go mech safely on their own terms because they had lost a lot. They would either go Bio feeling behind or go mech and I would crush them because they were so far behind.
I feel like the meta has so drastically shifted in comparison to WoL that we are no longer the race that aims at sitting back constantly. In ZvT it was always 'drone as hard as possible' and the terran sought to make you stop. Now adays with the increase of mech sitting back while they do the same can actually be disastrous. A mech who sits and never leaves his base is first of all extremely boring and second hard to kill. In my eyes as soon as you scout mech you need to be aiming to disrupt the terran. Go for some sort of timing, whether it be early muta pressure, fast roach max timing, fast roach drops, burrow infestor timing. Something to throw them off balance, while you are doing the timing you drone up and get four base saturation going and then you can just over run them. Unless of course they defend perfectly, then you are kind of screwed.
Here is a good example of how to deal with mech without trying to go for a crazy timing. It is through constant back stabbing. Soulkey vs Maru at proleague. He was behind for most of the game, but slowly crawled himself in by backstabbing every time the terran moved out. His theory was, 'you may kill my base but I will kill something of yours'. If he felt he couldn't engage the terran army (which was like never) he would run around it and attack the terrans bases/production.
http://www.twitch.tv/m/378123
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So basically you are saying Zerg must be the aggressor, perform some sort of hit and run tactics, backstabs, etc. That seems interesting, and I saw the game you posted. Soulkey aimed for a SH/heavy muta composition while harassing early game with roaches, then continuously tried to bust into Maru's base with his big muta flock. He was able to reach a critical mass and won from there. That's sound more like a "strategy" to me, even if it looks quite frail. It's a good start, but I wonder if we can theorize something with specific timings.
Is there a specific window of vulnerability of mech (the big turtling style) ? How many bases should we take ? (I take 8+ but it's worth shit), must we attack and trade non-stop with roaches, THEN tech when damage is done, or tech as fast as possible and pull out our "big" units first ?
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On January 23 2014 16:49 DjayEl wrote:
So basically you are saying Zerg must be the aggressor, perform some sort of hit and run tactics, backstabs, etc. That seems interesting, and I saw the game you posted. Soulkey aimed for a SH/heavy muta composition while harassing early game with roaches, then continuously tried to bust into Maru's base with his big muta flock. He was able to reach a critical mass and won from there. That's sound more like a "strategy" to me, even if it looks quite frail. It's a good start, but I wonder if we can theorize something with specific timings.
Is there a specific window of vulnerability of mech (the big turtling style) ? How many bases should we take ? (I take 8+ but it's worth shit), must we attack and trade non-stop with roaches, THEN tech when damage is done, or tech as fast as possible and pull out our "big" units first ?
Watch a few replays vs mech and check their unit count. I found that most meching terrans I meet don't really have more than 2-3 tanks at 11 minutes, so I just do a speedroach all in at that time without upgrades and not fully saturated third and kill them. I'm not going to tilt myself by trying to play a macro game vs a meching terran, I already get tilted enough from playing vs protoss.
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On January 24 2014 01:56 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 16:49 DjayEl wrote:
So basically you are saying Zerg must be the aggressor, perform some sort of hit and run tactics, backstabs, etc. That seems interesting, and I saw the game you posted. Soulkey aimed for a SH/heavy muta composition while harassing early game with roaches, then continuously tried to bust into Maru's base with his big muta flock. He was able to reach a critical mass and won from there. That's sound more like a "strategy" to me, even if it looks quite frail. It's a good start, but I wonder if we can theorize something with specific timings.
Is there a specific window of vulnerability of mech (the big turtling style) ? How many bases should we take ? (I take 8+ but it's worth shit), must we attack and trade non-stop with roaches, THEN tech when damage is done, or tech as fast as possible and pull out our "big" units first ? Watch a few replays vs mech and check their unit count. I found that most meching terrans I meet don't really have more than 2-3 tanks at 11 minutes, so I just do a speedroach all in at that time without upgrades and not fully saturated third and kill them. I'm not going to tilt myself by trying to play a macro game vs a meching terran, I already get tilted enough from playing vs protoss.
That is what I thought, infortunately half-decent players open with banshees and kind of force you into the late game. That is not to say that a Roach all in would not work, it might, just as a max roach stephano style in ZvP can break some players provided your macro is OK, but that is not something I can rely on on long term, I feel. But I'll definitely try this out if only to challenge the boundaries of what is doable and what is not.
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On January 24 2014 02:18 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 01:56 Zheryn wrote:On January 23 2014 16:49 DjayEl wrote:
So basically you are saying Zerg must be the aggressor, perform some sort of hit and run tactics, backstabs, etc. That seems interesting, and I saw the game you posted. Soulkey aimed for a SH/heavy muta composition while harassing early game with roaches, then continuously tried to bust into Maru's base with his big muta flock. He was able to reach a critical mass and won from there. That's sound more like a "strategy" to me, even if it looks quite frail. It's a good start, but I wonder if we can theorize something with specific timings.
Is there a specific window of vulnerability of mech (the big turtling style) ? How many bases should we take ? (I take 8+ but it's worth shit), must we attack and trade non-stop with roaches, THEN tech when damage is done, or tech as fast as possible and pull out our "big" units first ? Watch a few replays vs mech and check their unit count. I found that most meching terrans I meet don't really have more than 2-3 tanks at 11 minutes, so I just do a speedroach all in at that time without upgrades and not fully saturated third and kill them. I'm not going to tilt myself by trying to play a macro game vs a meching terran, I already get tilted enough from playing vs protoss. That is what I thought, infortunately half-decent players open with banshees and kind of force you into the late game. That is not to say that a Roach all in would not work, it might, just as a max roach stephano style in ZvP can break some players provided your macro is OK, but that is not something I can rely on on long term, I feel. But I'll definitely try this out if only to challenge the boundaries of what is doable and what is not.
Removed my question. Nevermind. I didn't read properly 
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On January 24 2014 02:18 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 01:56 Zheryn wrote:On January 23 2014 16:49 DjayEl wrote:
So basically you are saying Zerg must be the aggressor, perform some sort of hit and run tactics, backstabs, etc. That seems interesting, and I saw the game you posted. Soulkey aimed for a SH/heavy muta composition while harassing early game with roaches, then continuously tried to bust into Maru's base with his big muta flock. He was able to reach a critical mass and won from there. That's sound more like a "strategy" to me, even if it looks quite frail. It's a good start, but I wonder if we can theorize something with specific timings.
Is there a specific window of vulnerability of mech (the big turtling style) ? How many bases should we take ? (I take 8+ but it's worth shit), must we attack and trade non-stop with roaches, THEN tech when damage is done, or tech as fast as possible and pull out our "big" units first ? Watch a few replays vs mech and check their unit count. I found that most meching terrans I meet don't really have more than 2-3 tanks at 11 minutes, so I just do a speedroach all in at that time without upgrades and not fully saturated third and kill them. I'm not going to tilt myself by trying to play a macro game vs a meching terran, I already get tilted enough from playing vs protoss. That is what I thought, infortunately half-decent players open with banshees and kind of force you into the late game. That is not to say that a Roach all in would not work, it might, just as a max roach stephano style in ZvP can break some players provided your macro is OK, but that is not something I can rely on on long term, I feel. But I'll definitely try this out if only to challenge the boundaries of what is doable and what is not.
If you are worried about banshee's go fora 1/1 roach drop all in but reinforce with a nydus. You drop the main base and put a nydus in the main base for reinforcement. Make queens while maxing and you will have anti air/creep spread in his base!
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Hi everyone,
I'm currently struggling a little in ZvT when Terran goes bio/mine, but instantly adds 2 more raxx after fact instead of going for 3 CC. What Ive been trying is get an earlier baneling nest and delay mutas in favor of more ling/bling but i usually still lose my 3rd or take some other kind of game ending dmg. Maybe I am overdroning I dunno...
I play low masters, any tips would be much appreciated.
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On January 24 2014 02:18 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 01:56 Zheryn wrote:On January 23 2014 16:49 DjayEl wrote:
So basically you are saying Zerg must be the aggressor, perform some sort of hit and run tactics, backstabs, etc. That seems interesting, and I saw the game you posted. Soulkey aimed for a SH/heavy muta composition while harassing early game with roaches, then continuously tried to bust into Maru's base with his big muta flock. He was able to reach a critical mass and won from there. That's sound more like a "strategy" to me, even if it looks quite frail. It's a good start, but I wonder if we can theorize something with specific timings.
Is there a specific window of vulnerability of mech (the big turtling style) ? How many bases should we take ? (I take 8+ but it's worth shit), must we attack and trade non-stop with roaches, THEN tech when damage is done, or tech as fast as possible and pull out our "big" units first ? Watch a few replays vs mech and check their unit count. I found that most meching terrans I meet don't really have more than 2-3 tanks at 11 minutes, so I just do a speedroach all in at that time without upgrades and not fully saturated third and kill them. I'm not going to tilt myself by trying to play a macro game vs a meching terran, I already get tilted enough from playing vs protoss. That is what I thought, infortunately half-decent players open with banshees and kind of force you into the late game. That is not to say that a Roach all in would not work, it might, just as a max roach stephano style in ZvP can break some players provided your macro is OK, but that is not something I can rely on on long term, I feel. But I'll definitely try this out if only to challenge the boundaries of what is doable and what is not.
I bring 6 queens vs the banshees :D it's a wicked sick strategy!
On January 25 2014 19:17 p0wL wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm currently struggling a little in ZvT when Terran goes bio/mine, but instantly adds 2 more raxx after fact instead of going for 3 CC. What Ive been trying is get an earlier baneling nest and delay mutas in favor of more ling/bling but i usually still lose my 3rd or take some other kind of game ending dmg. Maybe I am overdroning I dunno...
I play low masters, any tips would be much appreciated.
Do you have a replay of this? I always overlord scout with speedilords at around 7 minutes and if I see 3 finished rax I drop the baneling nest, get +1/+1 and only get a few drones at my third, stopping at around 50 drones then just mass ling/bling and get baneling speed asap. I don't even make mutas, just have enough queens to focus medivacs and leave some lings as drop defense as well, maybe a spore, then just keep map control, spread creep and deny their third forever.
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oh ok i think i went up to about 65 drones, so i probably overdroned, just like I had assumed. Will try to stop at 50, thanks for the advice
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Hi guys,
I need your advice on my ZvP.
Right now I play a Roach Hydra Viper composition to defend P pushes, secure map control, spread creep and expand, then going for potential tech switches depending of what I see.
The problem lies when the P gets an Archon/Immortal/Whatever composition, as it seems everything I can get just get melted to this compo. Its not the first time it happens to me.
Here is my last game:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/ZvP feels good but loose.SC2Replay
I felt I played so well this game: I always can improve my macro of course, so does my opponent, but everything elsed seemed so smooth to me. I ruled out potential all ins, teched to my compo, crushed, litterally crushed TWICE his archon/colossus/stalker attacks with Roach Hydra Viper, denied almost all potential expands with burrowed lings, secure incredible income and got all my ups and some ultras. From there I thought "great, I won, they guy litterally dit NOTHING this game, lets get some infestors just in case and go for the kill", then the guys moves out with an Archon Immortal force and just destroys my army. I tried to tech switch, make some mutas and go base trade, but I missed something here. No matter what I tried the game was lost from this point.
How can this happen? How a 10 times won game can snowball in such a defeat? I'm ripping my hair out of my head right now trying to understand what happened.
Help me please!
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On January 25 2014 19:17 p0wL wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm currently struggling a little in ZvT when Terran goes bio/mine, but instantly adds 2 more raxx after fact instead of going for 3 CC. What Ive been trying is get an earlier baneling nest and delay mutas in favor of more ling/bling but i usually still lose my 3rd or take some other kind of game ending dmg. Maybe I am overdroning I dunno...
I play low masters, any tips would be much appreciated.
I don't think pre stim pushes are that strong and with stim you have plenty of time. What i do when not seeing a third cc is that i just drone my 3 bases up without adding a 4th. Getting banenest before lair (but after upgrades) is also fine but I have from what i experienced usually time to get it after. This also depends on if he's opening reaper & helion. If he isn't his push can come sooner and I would get that baneling nest sooner and you should get mapcontroll so you see when he move out so you can make units. Otherwise vs helions I just drone my 3 bases and have those ~20 lings to defend while i add around 4 safety banelings and if he comes i just produce lings. Really don't find these pushes that strong but as someone mentioned uploading a replay probably would help you more.
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Hi all. Need a build for the fastest speedlings from 1 base for ZvZ. No Banes. Just speedlings
Thanx
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What's the point of 10 pool in ZvP?
I tried it for a couple games and even silver leagues can defend this without losing any probes.
Here's one example replay:
http://drop.sc/371909
If he opens gateway, he can hold it with a wall and 1 zealot.
If he opens FFE, he also gets a wall and a cannon in time.
The only advantage I see at this point is messing his build up, since I believe many low league protoss are very dependant on executing the same build over and over.
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On January 26 2014 03:53 SorrowShine wrote:
Hi all. Need a build for the fastest speedlings from 1 base for ZvZ. No Banes. Just speedlings
Thanx
12 pool (double extractor trick)
dont cancel one extractor
11 overlord
Pull gas drones @ 100 gas
Obv. This isnt the fastest but i think its the most efficient
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I think 10 pool can kill the Forge FE Forge + first Pylon and in the case of Gate Expo, can threaten when there's no wall of and delay the NExus when there is.
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On January 26 2014 07:14 Azoryen wrote:What's the point of 10 pool in ZvP? I tried it for a couple games and even silver leagues can defend this without losing any probes. Here's one example replay: http://drop.sc/371909If he opens gateway, he can hold it with a wall and 1 zealot. If he opens FFE, he also gets a wall and a cannon in time. The only advantage I see at this point is messing his build up, since I believe many low league protoss are very dependant on executing the same build over and over.
The point of the 10 pool is to cancel the natural or kill him if he is super greedy. Often you just go 10 pool into 6-8 lings and then play macro behind it.
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Just wondering, why do people switch to mutas after a ling hydra attack if toss already has stargates ready to produce phoenixes?
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On January 25 2014 22:03 p0wL wrote:
oh ok i think i went up to about 65 drones, so i probably overdroned, just like I had assumed. Will try to stop at 50, thanks for the advice
Just remember to drone up your third after you defended the first push and gained map control, then continue with upgrades and get the tech of your choice while denying their third for as long as possible.
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On January 26 2014 14:45 learning88 wrote:
Just wondering, why do people switch to mutas after a ling hydra attack if toss already has stargates ready to produce phoenixes?
If it is only one stargate and they are not currently producing phoenixes it is easy to overwhelm the protoss with muta/corrupter. If he has multiple stargates the only time it is a reasonable option is when you have 5-6 bases and you can go for a massive muta/corrupter switch while he is producing voidrays. I never understand why some zergs see 3 stargates and think it is a good idea to go for 12 mutas and then proceed to get raped. What you can do if they are going stargates however is produce 10-12 mutas go for his mineral lines and when he starts massing phoenixes go for a huge hydra follow up. Of course this depends on whether he has already been producing collosus (one presumes not if they are on three stargates).
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Why do Zergs take fast 3rds vs protoss?
Are Zerg builds too greedy or is that necessary in order to have enough economy to survive later?
I've been imitating the standard builds, but Protoss has so many types of aggression with different units and timings that it's very hard to scout them all. The lack of lings in watch towers due to MSC is also very damaging.
So I'm considering a new safer build and I'd like to know if you guys think there are big drawbacks.
I'll be delaying my 3rd quite a bit, always get a gas at around 3:30 to have ling speed to defend gateway+MSC pokes/timings, get a queen to spread creep towards the 3rd and help vs the MSC and stay on 2 bases until I suspect that he may do some kind of 4 gateway pressure from 2 bases.
The trigger for me to take the 3rd will be seeing him take gas, which should happen between 6:00 and 7:00 if I'm not mistaken.
What do you think of this plan?
EDIT: btw, I'm plat NA.
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EPT
