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On January 28 2014 10:44 Azoryen wrote:
Why do Zergs take fast 3rds vs protoss?
Are Zerg builds too greedy or is that necessary in order to have enough economy to survive later?
I've been imitating the standard builds, but Protoss has so many types of aggression with different units and timings that it's very hard to scout them all. The lack of lings in watch towers due to MSC is also very damaging.
So I'm considering a new safer build and I'd like to know if you guys think there are big drawbacks.
I'll be delaying my 3rd quite a bit, always get a gas at around 3:30 to have ling speed to defend gateway+MSC pokes/timings, get a queen to spread creep towards the 3rd and help vs the MSC and stay on 2 bases until I suspect that he may do some kind of 4 gateway pressure from 2 bases.
The trigger for me to take the 3rd will be seeing him take gas, which should happen between 6:00 and 7:00 if I'm not mistaken.
What do you think of this plan?
EDIT: btw, I'm plat NA.
I know Scarlett often plays a style that delays her third. The thing is you are sacrificing your economy, therefore you need to find a gain for that sacrifice. For example you could sacrifice economy and rush tech instead. Go for 2x 5min gases and rush +1+1 melee carapace and rush ultras.
The reason we often go fast three bases is that in the current meta you can defend most aggression on three bases. The only attacks which you will generally struggle against are all in variates. Such as a 4/5 gate all in off one base. Anything with a protoss expand you can defend if you scout and respond properly.
That build will probably work for you until you start hitting protoss players in diamond/masters who macro well and play eco builds. Any protoss who plays macro oriented with a third base should crush you because his economy will be out of hand. If he rushes a greedy third without gas he could end up ahead of you on bases! The other thing you will be missing is production. If he does a 8:30 immortal all in and you are only just getting your third base droned you will never have the production to hold him off.
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On January 28 2014 10:57 zasg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 10:44 Azoryen wrote:
Why do Zergs take fast 3rds vs protoss?
Are Zerg builds too greedy or is that necessary in order to have enough economy to survive later?
I've been imitating the standard builds, but Protoss has so many types of aggression with different units and timings that it's very hard to scout them all. The lack of lings in watch towers due to MSC is also very damaging.
So I'm considering a new safer build and I'd like to know if you guys think there are big drawbacks.
I'll be delaying my 3rd quite a bit, always get a gas at around 3:30 to have ling speed to defend gateway+MSC pokes/timings, get a queen to spread creep towards the 3rd and help vs the MSC and stay on 2 bases until I suspect that he may do some kind of 4 gateway pressure from 2 bases.
The trigger for me to take the 3rd will be seeing him take gas, which should happen between 6:00 and 7:00 if I'm not mistaken.
What do you think of this plan?
EDIT: btw, I'm plat NA. I know Scarlett often plays a style that delays her third. The thing is you are sacrificing your economy, therefore you need to find a gain for that sacrifice. For example you could sacrifice economy and rush tech instead. Go for 2x 5min gases and rush +1+1 melee carapace and rush ultras. The reason we often go fast three bases is that in the current meta you can defend most aggression on three bases. The only attacks which you will generally struggle against are all in variates. Such as a 4/5 gate all in off one base. Anything with a protoss expand you can defend if you scout and respond properly. That build will probably work for you until you start hitting protoss players in diamond/masters who macro well and play eco builds. Any protoss who plays macro oriented with a third base should crush you because his economy will be out of hand. If he rushes a greedy third without gas he could end up ahead of you on bases! The other thing you will be missing is production. If he does a 8:30 immortal all in and you are only just getting your third base droned you will never have the production to hold him off.
It's funny you mention immortal all-ins, because I usually think that I don't defend it because I lack units and static defence.
You mean lack of production due to larva or economy?
The faster immortal all-in are so fast and strong that usually people can't hold the 3rd anyway then try to hold the all-in at the natural. Which makes me wonder if it wouldn't be better to not waste larva and minerals on the 3rd+drones, and just pump units from 2 saturated bases while you think this is a possibility.
You see, the problem I have in ZvP is that builds seem so streamlined because if you defend now, you'll lose to later all-ins or macro play. And people call it greedy, but it's not actually greedy, it's just what you gotta do to have a chance in a macro game vs Protoss.
Edit: do you know any replays or vods of that Scarlett style?
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On January 28 2014 11:16 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 10:57 zasg wrote:On January 28 2014 10:44 Azoryen wrote:
Why do Zergs take fast 3rds vs protoss?
Are Zerg builds too greedy or is that necessary in order to have enough economy to survive later?
I've been imitating the standard builds, but Protoss has so many types of aggression with different units and timings that it's very hard to scout them all. The lack of lings in watch towers due to MSC is also very damaging.
So I'm considering a new safer build and I'd like to know if you guys think there are big drawbacks.
I'll be delaying my 3rd quite a bit, always get a gas at around 3:30 to have ling speed to defend gateway+MSC pokes/timings, get a queen to spread creep towards the 3rd and help vs the MSC and stay on 2 bases until I suspect that he may do some kind of 4 gateway pressure from 2 bases.
The trigger for me to take the 3rd will be seeing him take gas, which should happen between 6:00 and 7:00 if I'm not mistaken.
What do you think of this plan?
EDIT: btw, I'm plat NA. I know Scarlett often plays a style that delays her third. The thing is you are sacrificing your economy, therefore you need to find a gain for that sacrifice. For example you could sacrifice economy and rush tech instead. Go for 2x 5min gases and rush +1+1 melee carapace and rush ultras. The reason we often go fast three bases is that in the current meta you can defend most aggression on three bases. The only attacks which you will generally struggle against are all in variates. Such as a 4/5 gate all in off one base. Anything with a protoss expand you can defend if you scout and respond properly. That build will probably work for you until you start hitting protoss players in diamond/masters who macro well and play eco builds. Any protoss who plays macro oriented with a third base should crush you because his economy will be out of hand. If he rushes a greedy third without gas he could end up ahead of you on bases! The other thing you will be missing is production. If he does a 8:30 immortal all in and you are only just getting your third base droned you will never have the production to hold him off. It's funny you mention immortal all-ins, because I usually think that I don't defend it because I lack units and static defence. You mean lack of production due to larva or economy? The faster immortal all-in are so fast and strong that usually people can't hold the 3rd anyway then try to hold the all-in at the natural. Which makes me wonder if it wouldn't be better to not waste larva and minerals on the 3rd+drones, and just pump units from 2 saturated bases while you think this is a possibility. You see, the problem I have in ZvP is that builds seem so streamlined because if you defend now, you'll lose to later all-ins or macro play. And people call it greedy, but it's not actually greedy, it's just what you gotta do to have a chance in a macro game vs Protoss. Edit: do you know any replays or vods of that Scarlett style?
The main production thing you lose is larva, saturation in the long term when going against a three base protoss, but holding the all ins it is the larva which hurts.
Hmmm, I think I saw Scarlett doing it on her stream you could try going through her latest vods. I am trying to remember who recently I saw do it during proleague. Hopefully someone else can remember, sorry 
The super fast immortal all in with only 1 or 2 gases is really hard to hold. Having the third base up allows you to squeeze out a few more units and then if they go for it you get a win because you can sack it while massing more units. If they skip it and you hold you are a mile ahead. The bonus you get from having the third base is that if you need to pull your drones to defend it isn't a major. You can easily re-drone afterwards because of the larva mechanic.
I know how you feel with ZvP at the moment. It can be really difficult, if you commit to much to defending you end up losing in the long run. It is probably one of the hardest balances to work out in the current meta. I find myself often over commiting to 4 gate zealot pressures and dying later or under commiting and dying then ><
My only advice in this regard is watch your replays, watch pro games and try to learn when to make more units and when not. I know rather vague, but I am struggling with the same thing at the moment.
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On January 28 2014 12:42 zasg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 11:16 Azoryen wrote:On January 28 2014 10:57 zasg wrote:On January 28 2014 10:44 Azoryen wrote:
Why do Zergs take fast 3rds vs protoss?
Are Zerg builds too greedy or is that necessary in order to have enough economy to survive later?
I've been imitating the standard builds, but Protoss has so many types of aggression with different units and timings that it's very hard to scout them all. The lack of lings in watch towers due to MSC is also very damaging.
So I'm considering a new safer build and I'd like to know if you guys think there are big drawbacks.
I'll be delaying my 3rd quite a bit, always get a gas at around 3:30 to have ling speed to defend gateway+MSC pokes/timings, get a queen to spread creep towards the 3rd and help vs the MSC and stay on 2 bases until I suspect that he may do some kind of 4 gateway pressure from 2 bases.
The trigger for me to take the 3rd will be seeing him take gas, which should happen between 6:00 and 7:00 if I'm not mistaken.
What do you think of this plan?
EDIT: btw, I'm plat NA. I know Scarlett often plays a style that delays her third. The thing is you are sacrificing your economy, therefore you need to find a gain for that sacrifice. For example you could sacrifice economy and rush tech instead. Go for 2x 5min gases and rush +1+1 melee carapace and rush ultras. The reason we often go fast three bases is that in the current meta you can defend most aggression on three bases. The only attacks which you will generally struggle against are all in variates. Such as a 4/5 gate all in off one base. Anything with a protoss expand you can defend if you scout and respond properly. That build will probably work for you until you start hitting protoss players in diamond/masters who macro well and play eco builds. Any protoss who plays macro oriented with a third base should crush you because his economy will be out of hand. If he rushes a greedy third without gas he could end up ahead of you on bases! The other thing you will be missing is production. If he does a 8:30 immortal all in and you are only just getting your third base droned you will never have the production to hold him off. It's funny you mention immortal all-ins, because I usually think that I don't defend it because I lack units and static defence. You mean lack of production due to larva or economy? The faster immortal all-in are so fast and strong that usually people can't hold the 3rd anyway then try to hold the all-in at the natural. Which makes me wonder if it wouldn't be better to not waste larva and minerals on the 3rd+drones, and just pump units from 2 saturated bases while you think this is a possibility. You see, the problem I have in ZvP is that builds seem so streamlined because if you defend now, you'll lose to later all-ins or macro play. And people call it greedy, but it's not actually greedy, it's just what you gotta do to have a chance in a macro game vs Protoss. Edit: do you know any replays or vods of that Scarlett style? The main production thing you lose is larva, saturation in the long term when going against a three base protoss, but holding the all ins it is the larva which hurts. Hmmm, I think I saw Scarlett doing it on her stream you could try going through her latest vods. I am trying to remember who recently I saw do it during proleague. Hopefully someone else can remember, sorry The super fast immortal all in with only 1 or 2 gases is really hard to hold. Having the third base up allows you to squeeze out a few more units and then if they go for it you get a win because you can sack it while massing more units. If they skip it and you hold you are a mile ahead. The bonus you get from having the third base is that if you need to pull your drones to defend it isn't a major. You can easily re-drone afterwards because of the larva mechanic. I know how you feel with ZvP at the moment. It can be really difficult, if you commit to much to defending you end up losing in the long run. It is probably one of the hardest balances to work out in the current meta. I find myself often over commiting to 4 gate zealot pressures and dying later or under commiting and dying then >< My only advice in this regard is watch your replays, watch pro games and try to learn when to make more units and when not. I know rather vague, but I am struggling with the same thing at the moment.
Without making this a QQ post about balance, I feel the MSC removing lings from the front and watch towers is a problem.
Deciding whether to spend larva on drones or lings becomes a blind coin flip often times, much more so than in WoL.
There are details in the protoss build that can give away the 4 gate pressure like the timing of the gateways which are usually at the wall and even watching them morphing. But if you can't even keep a ling there, things get more messy.
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On January 28 2014 13:17 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 12:42 zasg wrote:On January 28 2014 11:16 Azoryen wrote:On January 28 2014 10:57 zasg wrote:On January 28 2014 10:44 Azoryen wrote:
Why do Zergs take fast 3rds vs protoss?
Are Zerg builds too greedy or is that necessary in order to have enough economy to survive later?
I've been imitating the standard builds, but Protoss has so many types of aggression with different units and timings that it's very hard to scout them all. The lack of lings in watch towers due to MSC is also very damaging.
So I'm considering a new safer build and I'd like to know if you guys think there are big drawbacks.
I'll be delaying my 3rd quite a bit, always get a gas at around 3:30 to have ling speed to defend gateway+MSC pokes/timings, get a queen to spread creep towards the 3rd and help vs the MSC and stay on 2 bases until I suspect that he may do some kind of 4 gateway pressure from 2 bases.
The trigger for me to take the 3rd will be seeing him take gas, which should happen between 6:00 and 7:00 if I'm not mistaken.
What do you think of this plan?
EDIT: btw, I'm plat NA. I know Scarlett often plays a style that delays her third. The thing is you are sacrificing your economy, therefore you need to find a gain for that sacrifice. For example you could sacrifice economy and rush tech instead. Go for 2x 5min gases and rush +1+1 melee carapace and rush ultras. The reason we often go fast three bases is that in the current meta you can defend most aggression on three bases. The only attacks which you will generally struggle against are all in variates. Such as a 4/5 gate all in off one base. Anything with a protoss expand you can defend if you scout and respond properly. That build will probably work for you until you start hitting protoss players in diamond/masters who macro well and play eco builds. Any protoss who plays macro oriented with a third base should crush you because his economy will be out of hand. If he rushes a greedy third without gas he could end up ahead of you on bases! The other thing you will be missing is production. If he does a 8:30 immortal all in and you are only just getting your third base droned you will never have the production to hold him off. It's funny you mention immortal all-ins, because I usually think that I don't defend it because I lack units and static defence. You mean lack of production due to larva or economy? The faster immortal all-in are so fast and strong that usually people can't hold the 3rd anyway then try to hold the all-in at the natural. Which makes me wonder if it wouldn't be better to not waste larva and minerals on the 3rd+drones, and just pump units from 2 saturated bases while you think this is a possibility. You see, the problem I have in ZvP is that builds seem so streamlined because if you defend now, you'll lose to later all-ins or macro play. And people call it greedy, but it's not actually greedy, it's just what you gotta do to have a chance in a macro game vs Protoss. Edit: do you know any replays or vods of that Scarlett style? The main production thing you lose is larva, saturation in the long term when going against a three base protoss, but holding the all ins it is the larva which hurts. Hmmm, I think I saw Scarlett doing it on her stream you could try going through her latest vods. I am trying to remember who recently I saw do it during proleague. Hopefully someone else can remember, sorry The super fast immortal all in with only 1 or 2 gases is really hard to hold. Having the third base up allows you to squeeze out a few more units and then if they go for it you get a win because you can sack it while massing more units. If they skip it and you hold you are a mile ahead. The bonus you get from having the third base is that if you need to pull your drones to defend it isn't a major. You can easily re-drone afterwards because of the larva mechanic. I know how you feel with ZvP at the moment. It can be really difficult, if you commit to much to defending you end up losing in the long run. It is probably one of the hardest balances to work out in the current meta. I find myself often over commiting to 4 gate zealot pressures and dying later or under commiting and dying then >< My only advice in this regard is watch your replays, watch pro games and try to learn when to make more units and when not. I know rather vague, but I am struggling with the same thing at the moment. Without making this a QQ post about balance, I feel the MSC removing lings from the front and watch towers is a problem. Deciding whether to spend larva on drones or lings becomes a blind coin flip often times, much more so than in WoL. There are details in the protoss build that can give away the 4 gate pressure like the timing of the gateways which are usually at the wall and even watching them morphing. But if you can't even keep a ling there, things get more messy.
Correct, it is far more challenging, basically we have to be a lot more active with lings rather then just sitting them there on hold position like we used to we now have to run them in and out over and over. Which on a skill level is good because it makes it harder. Debatable whether that is a good thing though I spose.
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In ZvT, I've encountered 2 reactor hellion expands and I don't remember how to hold those anymore. I tried to just build lings instead of drones for the time being but that's not very efficient. When I drop the RW?
I also played against someone who went reactor hellion expand while upgrading blue flame. Like wth?!?! Is hellion play starting to get popular again? BTW, this is gold league 
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On January 28 2014 15:35 learning88 wrote:In ZvT, I've encountered 2 reactor hellion expands and I don't remember how to hold those anymore. I tried to just build lings instead of drones for the time being but that's not very efficient. When I drop the RW? I also played against someone who went reactor hellion expand while upgrading blue flame. Like wth?!?! Is hellion play starting to get popular again? BTW, this is gold league
There's two ways to deal with it really and it's either roaches or extra queens. I prefer to make extra queens for a couple of reasons but roaches also works wonder.
If they go two factory it's most likely going to be mech. It doesn't have to be but it's a tell in that direction. If he goes double fact -> bio he has to do a lot of damage to be equal. against any type of helions the lings you make.. usually around ¨~ 16-20 is only really there to prevent runby. They block the path if the helis run past but your queens are the ones out there fighting. I like to get up to 7-8 queens against this since it allows you to defend, spread creep and if he's going into mech I have them later on to transfuse broodlords. Works great against those common helion banshee openings that's so common too. Another option is to make that roach warren at around 7 min when your overlord sees whats going on and make ~6 roaches to defend. I would guess that roaches is a more.. common option against this but i'm not alone in using queens etther.
And yes helions getting more popular. Since mines not as good a lot of terrans will continue making helions instead of mines althought.. double reactor helions is.. pretty weird. And also mech seems to getting more popular sadly and bore every zerg to death these days.
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Can someone give me a rundown of the general meta of how zergs play each matchup and a simple build? I'm getting back into the game and I don't really want to look through 100s of threads and watch hours of VODs to find patterns and figure out what's good. If you have a Rep or VOD of the simple build at work, I would appreciate looking at that.
I'm losing all my games in under like 8-10 mins because people are just doing things I have no idea about :/
Thanks for your help!
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On January 30 2014 15:13 Arisen wrote:
Can someone give me a rundown of the general meta of how zergs play each matchup and a simple build? I'm getting back into the game and I don't really want to look through 100s of threads and watch hours of VODs to find patterns and figure out what's good. If you have a Rep or VOD of the simple build at work, I would appreciate looking at that.
I'm losing all my games in under like 8-10 mins because people are just doing things I have no idea about :/
Thanks for your help!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428262
It covers all match ups and is quite thorough. Won't provide you with every build but gives you something solid to work from while you catch up.
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I was wondering, in ZvP how does something like Muta/SH fair against a Robo opener? I know people usually get Corruptors to supplement the SH but why not Mutas? You can harass while annoying their mineral lines. Although they don't kill Colossi fast compared to Corruptors, I will be sitting there in front of his base while he masses (relatively untouched).
However, I feel this composition is too squishy. I guess if I transition into turtle SH then it'll be more stable.
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On January 31 2014 05:39 learning88 wrote:
I was wondering, in ZvP how does something like Muta/SH fair against a Robo opener? I know people usually get Corruptors to supplement the SH but why not Mutas? You can harass while annoying their mineral lines. Although they don't kill Colossi fast compared to Corruptors, I will be sitting there in front of his base while he masses (relatively untouched).
However, I feel this composition is too squishy. I guess if I transition into turtle SH then it'll be more stable.
This works against mech quite well, but that's because they can't kill you early game. Most protoss that open Robo allin nowadays because stargate is a better opener. If they go heavy on robo midgame, it might be viable though. It'd have to be few muta's, hope they believe it's a massive switch, then go all out on swarm host.
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Macro robo openings are almost unplayable vs mutas. That's just how it is and one of the reasons people go stargate every time.
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Basic openers for ZvP that isnt 3 hatch before pool vs FFE?
Edit: sowwey didnt put a question mark T.T
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On January 31 2014 11:36 [MD]Frostbite wrote:
Basic openers for ZvP that isnt 3 hatch before pool vs FFE
Is this a question or a statement?
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I have a question regarding ZvT versus mech, I like to play a very versatile and fast style of Z with mutas, lings and banes as my prefered units against T and secondary unit comps with ultras, roach, hydra and infestor. I really don't like BL/SH very much but I have felt forced to try it like most other Z players these days.
I've gotten to a game plan where I open standard lings into mutas and use the maneuverability of the mutas to harass early-mid while the terran still has holes in his defenses. If he goes for an attack I have a planned mass zergling counter attack planned and if he just turtles down I transition into SH and go for multi pronged attacks with SH infront and mutas circling the base. After that I possibly add attacks of zerglings from other angles or simply to free up supply because I aim to go int BL after that while planing to have a few corrupters to help zone the vikings but primarily using the mutas I made early to assert air dominance. How does that sound as a game plan against mech?
My second thought is something I haven't gotten a chance to try yet but is a desperate thought while grasping for something else to play against mech than SH. I have tried going standard mutas/lings/ultras against mech with limited success, it just feels like T gets way too cost efficient even if I get tons of bases. The thought revolves around instead of using SH to attack into mech use infested terrans. Get a large number of infestors, store up energi and then go for a massive timing attack where I can throw 10-15 infestors worth of infested terrans into their third expansion while also attacking with a small amount of lings or hydras. I'm thinking that the reason infested terrans are so rarely used is because the enemy can get the hell out of there unless you manage to land some insane fungals. But the terran mech is too slow to get away and even if they do you can probably take out the CC if they do. Any thoughts about my ideas?
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On January 31 2014 19:59 Shuffleblade wrote:
I have a question regarding ZvT versus mech, I like to play a very versatile and fast style of Z with mutas, lings and banes as my prefered units against T and secondary unit comps with ultras, roach, hydra and infestor. I really don't like BL/SH very much but I have felt forced to try it like most other Z players these days.
I've gotten to a game plan where I open standard lings into mutas and use the maneuverability of the mutas to harass early-mid while the terran still has holes in his defenses. If he goes for an attack I have a planned mass zergling counter attack planned and if he just turtles down I transition into SH and go for multi pronged attacks with SH infront and mutas circling the base. After that I possibly add attacks of zerglings from other angles or simply to free up supply because I aim to go int BL after that while planing to have a few corrupters to help zone the vikings but primarily using the mutas I made early to assert air dominance. How does that sound as a game plan against mech?
My second thought is something I haven't gotten a chance to try yet but is a desperate thought while grasping for something else to play against mech than SH. I have tried going standard mutas/lings/ultras against mech with limited success, it just feels like T gets way too cost efficient even if I get tons of bases. The thought revolves around instead of using SH to attack into mech use infested terrans. Get a large number of infestors, store up energi and then go for a massive timing attack where I can throw 10-15 infestors worth of infested terrans into their third expansion while also attacking with a small amount of lings or hydras. I'm thinking that the reason infested terrans are so rarely used is because the enemy can get the hell out of there unless you manage to land some insane fungals. But the terran mech is too slow to get away and even if they do you can probably take out the CC if they do. Any thoughts about my ideas?
Vs mech you want to invest as little into mutas as possible. Just make enough to be safe and force turrets, id say a maximum of 8-10.
The resoning is that vs bio, you can pick off dropships, units in the front and the terran doesnt have minerals to spare.A big ball of baneling muta ling works very well together due to the speed. VS Mech, thors just deal too much damage, and can kill your mutas too cost effectively (unlike marines that actually can be killed if you have enough superiority.
You want to stay away from Infestor too much. A few might be good, but only if he gets to the broodlord stage. Unless you are already in GM i doubt you have the APM to spare to make the infestors worth the investment.
As for army compositions it really depends on the game. Just think of what the terran is making.
Some main points vs mech are going to be >
Denying bases
Getting a significant economic lead
Upgrades are important, but less so than against bio.
Roaches are great in the early stages of the game
Drops are much more powerful.
Swarmhosts are great vs smaller amounts of mech
In the end stages of the game, where mech finally becomes a force to fear, i would argue that you can tech switch around for maximum efficiency.
Siege tank & hellions , throw in broodlords or vipers - swarm him with corruptors or mutas to kill his air units.
Thors mines, go heavy on roach & hydra again.
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hi i'm wondering, if any master (High master please...) Can send me a replay with 15pool agianst 10pools.
I know that theres already a little guide on it in the thread,´but i really would love to see some actually replays on dealing with it.
Thanks to an1y that include these replays...
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On February 01 2014 04:46 weikor wrote:
Vs mech you want to invest as little into mutas as possible. Just make enough to be safe and force turrets, id say a maximum of 8-10.
This is really just a preference. Mass mutas can work awesome vs mech as we seen on even the pro level.
If the terran underestimate your composition you can win. Scarlett vs Major game 1 in the finals of MLG gameon invitional shows this. Large muta switches is also common or sometimes opening 10 mutas.. keep terran containing while hiding new mutas in the back so he doesn't know to invest in more thors instead of tanks.
Also playstyles like roach->muta->roach->muta or with swarmhosts instead of roaches work wonders.
Having said that.. just making 10 mutas is also very good vs mech since he have to invest a lot in turrets early to defend while you can contain him with swarmhost or roach after while teching into whatever you want (broodlordies!)
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Basic openers for ZvP that isnt 3 hatch before pool vs FFE?
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On February 01 2014 06:58 [MD]Frostbite wrote:
Basic openers for ZvP that isnt 3 hatch before pool vs FFE?
You can do any of the basic openers against FFE, 15 pool 15 hatch, 15 hatch 15 pool is the most standard ones from what I know. Then you just tweak your gastiming to whatever you want. If you are worried about cannons just go 14 or 15 pool into 15 hatch that way can handle the cannons. If you aren't worried take hatch first at 15 then pool at 15.
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EPT
