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On February 01 2014 08:44 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 06:58 [MD]Frostbite wrote:
Basic openers for ZvP that isnt 3 hatch before pool vs FFE? You can do any of the basic openers against FFE, 15 pool 15 hatch, 15 hatch 15 pool is the most standard ones from what I know. Then you just tweak your gastiming to whatever you want. If you are worried about cannons just go 14 or 15 pool into 15 hatch that way can handle the cannons. If you aren't worried take hatch first at 15 then pool at 15.
as a note on hatch first - unless you're in a tournament and/or know your opponent's style there's really no reason NOT to be worried about cannons, not to mention pylon blocks. if you're confident you can get hatch first down without a block, you still must send 1-2 drones to protect the natural (unless for some reason there just isn't a probe scout, which is suspicious in itself). an overlord floating above is not enough when you go hatch first because protoss can use pylon walling techniques to make it very very hard to stop a cannon rush even if you see it immediately and do a big drone pull. one drone is not enough because the probe will just run in circles until the pylon completes and start building cannons anyway. and if protoss is going for a cheesy, dedicated two probe cannon rush you will probably lose. that's kind of why hatch first is so dodgy, because you simply can't do it without sacrificing drone mining time just to keep it safe. the only exception is on a four player map where you can position your second OL to see the probe scout timing so you're able to pre-pull at the perfect time if necessary
that said, naturally not every toss opens forge or wants to cannon rush you, so it's a calculated risk that can work out, and it's certainly not IMPOSSIBLE to win if your hatch gets cannoned successfully, but it's such a big blind early risk and so many toss will happily start throwing down cannons that i don't see it as a viable option other than a once in a while "hey, might as well try for fun" kind of thing or if you're confident in your metagaming because of the opponent or the map. IMO the advantage of hatch first usually isn't worth the trouble against a protoss
really the only thing to change for openers in zvp is open gasless or open ling speed. ling speed is nice for denying pylons, nice if you're planning on doing ling/hydra or +1/+1 melee, and nice for defending early aggression alongside roaches, but obviously can end up doing absolutely nothing against a greedy toss. other than that all you can do that isn't an early pool is 14/14, which is pretty terrible except on daedalus
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On February 01 2014 06:58 [MD]Frostbite wrote:
Basic openers for ZvP that isnt 3 hatch before pool vs FFE?
well, how do you know it is FFE if you dont dronescout? beside probe timing which is not always a 100% reliable indicator. your overlord does not arrive until you placed your pool or hatch.
right now i am experimenting with a 13pool into fast double expand with gas on 4:30 into old dimaga ling/baneling-style as my blind standard build, with a lot of adaptions vs GFE from ~5:30 (scouting their wall off) on.
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On February 01 2014 09:08 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 08:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On February 01 2014 06:58 [MD]Frostbite wrote:
Basic openers for ZvP that isnt 3 hatch before pool vs FFE? You can do any of the basic openers against FFE, 15 pool 15 hatch, 15 hatch 15 pool is the most standard ones from what I know. Then you just tweak your gastiming to whatever you want. If you are worried about cannons just go 14 or 15 pool into 15 hatch that way can handle the cannons. If you aren't worried take hatch first at 15 then pool at 15. as a note on hatch first - unless you're in a tournament and/or know your opponent's style there's really no reason NOT to be worried about cannons, not to mention pylon blocks. if you're confident you can get hatch first down without a block, you still must send 1-2 drones to protect the natural (unless for some reason there just isn't a probe scout, which is suspicious in itself). an overlord floating above is not enough when you go hatch first because protoss can use pylon walling techniques to make it very very hard to stop a cannon rush even if you see it immediately and do a big drone pull. one drone is not enough because the probe will just run in circles until the pylon completes and start building cannons anyway. and if protoss is going for a cheesy, dedicated two probe cannon rush you will probably lose. that's kind of why hatch first is so dodgy, because you simply can't do it without sacrificing drone mining time just to keep it safe. the only exception is on a four player map where you can position your second OL to see the probe scout timing so you're able to pre-pull at the perfect time if necessary that said, naturally not every toss opens forge or wants to cannon rush you, so it's a calculated risk that can work out, and it's certainly not IMPOSSIBLE to win if your hatch gets cannoned successfully, but it's such a big blind early risk and so many toss will happily start throwing down cannons that i don't see it as a viable option other than a once in a while "hey, might as well try for fun" kind of thing or if you're confident in your metagaming because of the opponent or the map. IMO the advantage of hatch first usually isn't worth the trouble against a protoss really the only thing to change for openers in zvp is open gasless or open ling speed. ling speed is nice for denying pylons, nice if you're planning on doing ling/hydra or +1/+1 melee, and nice for defending early aggression alongside roaches, but obviously can end up doing absolutely nothing against a greedy toss. other than that all you can do that isn't an early pool is 14/14, which is pretty terrible except on daedalus
Very good post clarifiying a lot, I however do not agree with everything you say.
I agree its not worth the effort so for safety its more stable going pool first and it does not cost you that much economy wise either.
However it is possible to defend cannon rushes without losing much, you lose some mine time that is true. Its a big hassle thats also true, however you are missing one big point. The protoss opponent is also losing quite a bit by attempting to cannon rush you. Even if all they do is scare you and cancel they stil lose a fair amount of money(probably less than you lose from lost mining time but not that significant), if they do make a pylon and try to make cannons and fail. Chances are it has put YOU ahead, because they invest a lot of money into that, all it gave them was a little missed mining time for you and maybe forced a zergling or two. But you kept your workers, you kept your hatch while he most likely postponed getting his own nexus/tech to do that cannon rush.
Pool first is safer but its not sketchy going for a hatch first if you are confident that you can defend it.
If what you say is true zerg pros wouldn't go hatch first and protoss would go forge much more often it put them ahead so easily. The truth is forge first from protoss is getting more and more rare, gate expand is getting more and more standard. Because forge doesn't give protoss that big of an advantage and gate lets toss get the msc out faster. Most times it won't even be a risk to get cannon rushed because toss rarely go for ffe, for me anyway. Also I do 10 drone scout so I know if I even run the risk and can prepare accordingly.
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What's the best option to go for if you open mutalisk in ZvZ and the opponent is going for roaches?
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What's the response Zerg has when Protoss goes for phoenix into fast 3rd then lots of void rays with stalkers, FF and templar?
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On February 02 2014 06:15 LucoxP wrote:
What's the best option to go for if you open mutalisk in ZvZ and the opponent is going for roaches?
Best is relative to how the game has played out.
If you cancel his third base you can either just go for a big roach timing while keeping him pinned back with mutas. If you do not cancel his third you can either attempt to go mass muta with zergling/baneling (risky and hard to do), or build 8-10 muta and switch to a roach based composition.
My general rule it:
If they make roach/infestor I will go for a massive roach timing.
If they make roach/hydra I will go for a massive roach/baneling timing.
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On February 03 2014 08:46 Azoryen wrote:
What's the response Zerg has when Protoss goes for phoenix into fast 3rd then lots of void rays with stalkers, FF and templar?
Well, you can either try and go for a hydra timing before the templar are out. If you are slow and the templar are out, you will probably just die.
The safer option is to go swarmhost. He will never be able to push out until he switches into colossus.
I like to open up both options, I will try and go for a hydra timing, if I see he has to much for it to work I will just pull out and transition into a swarmhost build, use the hydras I built for defense and later use them for anti air with swarmhosts while getting corrupters/queen/viper out.
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On February 03 2014 09:01 zasg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 08:46 Azoryen wrote:
What's the response Zerg has when Protoss goes for phoenix into fast 3rd then lots of void rays with stalkers, FF and templar? Well, you can either try and go for a hydra timing before the templar are out. If you are slow and the templar are out, you will probably just die. The safer option is to go swarmhost. He will never be able to push out until he switches into colossus. I like to open up both options, I will try and go for a hydra timing, if I see he has to much for it to work I will just pull out and transition into a swarmhost build, use the hydras I built for defense and later use them for anti air with swarmhosts while getting corrupters/queen/viper out.
If he decides to go for my base with his air units, am I supposed to win the base race with the locusts?
Because void rays are pretty fast at killing bases too.
Never tried it, don't know how it turns out...
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On February 03 2014 09:07 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 09:01 zasg wrote:On February 03 2014 08:46 Azoryen wrote:
What's the response Zerg has when Protoss goes for phoenix into fast 3rd then lots of void rays with stalkers, FF and templar? Well, you can either try and go for a hydra timing before the templar are out. If you are slow and the templar are out, you will probably just die. The safer option is to go swarmhost. He will never be able to push out until he switches into colossus. I like to open up both options, I will try and go for a hydra timing, if I see he has to much for it to work I will just pull out and transition into a swarmhost build, use the hydras I built for defense and later use them for anti air with swarmhosts while getting corrupters/queen/viper out. If he decides to go for my base with his air units, am I supposed to win the base race with the locusts? Because void rays are pretty fast at killing bases too. Never tried it, don't know how it turns out...
If you are playing the swarmhost style you must be very thorough with spreading your creep and having overlord's in any blind spots. This will mean that if he tries to go around your army you can run your queens/hydras/corrupters to where he is heading. If he starts getting massed voidrays you need to add in some infestors for fungals, 4-6. If it is going really late game do not be scared to addon lots of spores so if he wants to go for a voidray run by he will run into 10 spore crawlers in your main. If he really wants to push a base race and it is like 4 base protoss you will probably lose. His voidrays will kill everything before your slow swarmhosts do. If I was you just use swarmhosts to deny a base while you defense your base with anti air. Always remember to keep an eye on your Swarmhosts or he may try a fake attack and kill your swarmhosts.
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I need help vs toss on Habitation Station. I have trouble against the fast gold base strategy when I go for fast 3 hatch and if I take my third at the gold it is very easy for them to do some kind of early gateway attack to take it out. I suppose I could just all in all the time but that's not super appealing to me. Any suggestions?
(If this has been asked before I am very sorry just let me know and I will hunt)
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I need help. If I don't improve in the next month or so, I'm pretty sure I will give up and stop playing SC2. I quite simply don't "get it" any more, and since HotS I've been playing absolutely terrible. I'm not 100% sure why but with this post I will attempt to get back to basics.
Could someone please suggest to me a standard build for ZvT?
I generally like to open with a hatch first because I prefer a macro game over cheese and all-ins. It may help for suggesting a build to know that what is killing me in ZvT, is generally two things:
1. Aggressive denial/delay of my 3rd with reaper/hellion/banshee.
2. Mid/late game mass marine.
The second issue above is driving me insane. There's a huge part of me that wants to go off and rant about how OP marines are with good micro and how I feel they're indirectly responsible for numerous nerfs to other units in the game but I will spare you the frustration-fueled diatribe. All that matters is that I get absolutely run over by mass marines. You know the deal, I'm sure. It seems a popular style now is a few mines, a few medivacs, and an unholy amount of marines. I assume the solution to this is sling/bane/muta but I never seem to have enough - or I'm always just a bit behind them in terms of numbers as they hit right before my economy explodes.
I feel I do generally well at macroing, droning up, etc. but I am always slowly whittled away by wave after wave of stimming infantry.
I don't know what to do.
I will try to find replays for responses, as I'm sure they'd help; but really, I just want a solid, well-tested build that I can use as the starting point for critiquing all aspects of my play. I've loved SC since vanilla SC1 but I'm at the point where I'm ready to pack it in.
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On February 04 2014 04:23 Yorkie wrote:
I need help vs toss on Habitation Station. I have trouble against the fast gold base strategy when I go for fast 3 hatch and if I take my third at the gold it is very easy for them to do some kind of early gateway attack to take it out. I suppose I could just all in all the time but that's not super appealing to me. Any suggestions?
(If this has been asked before I am very sorry just let me know and I will hunt)
Don't take the gold base as your third if you feel you cannot hold the pressure. The fourth base leaves you open to attacks, the map is built that way. If you are not confident in that regard just take the southern third and take gold as a fourth of fifth.
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On February 04 2014 05:37 Mjolnir wrote:
I need help. If I don't improve in the next month or so, I'm pretty sure I will give up and stop playing SC2. I quite simply don't "get it" any more, and since HotS I've been playing absolutely terrible. I'm not 100% sure why but with this post I will attempt to get back to basics.
Could someone please suggest to me a standard build for ZvT?
I generally like to open with a hatch first because I prefer a macro game over cheese and all-ins. It may help for suggesting a build to know that what is killing me in ZvT, is generally two things:
1. Aggressive denial/delay of my 3rd with reaper/hellion/banshee.
2. Mid/late game mass marine.
The second issue above is driving me insane. There's a huge part of me that wants to go off and rant about how OP marines are with good micro and how I feel they're indirectly responsible for numerous nerfs to other units in the game but I will spare you the frustration-fueled diatribe. All that matters is that I can absolutely run over by mass marines. You know the deal, I'm sure. It seems a popular style now is a few mines, a few medivacs, and an unholy amount of marines. I assume the solution to this is sling/bane/muta but I never seem to have enough - or I'm always just a bit behind them in terms of numbers as they hit right before my economy explodes.
I feel I do generally well at macroing, droning up, etc. but I am always slowly whittled away by wave after wave of stimming infantry.
I don't know what to do.
I will try to find replays for responses, as I'm sure they'd help; but really, I just want a solid, well-tested build that I can use as the starting point for critiquing all aspects of my play. I've loved SC since vanilla SC1 but I'm at the point where I'm ready to pack it in.
I can't give you any direct advice, but I can give you af ew pointers on where to look. You may have already, if so, feel free to ignore. 
most of these are good: blades strategy threads
This one should have a decently updated ZvT guide: bladesw overview of HotS zerg.
Half a year old, not sure if still viable: tripple barrel bust.
Well, that's what I got. Keep up the hope!
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Ok, so I am trying to learn ZvZ gasless double upgrade Roach opener. I just don't know how to deal with Mutalisk openers and mass muta players.
What do you do. Gas timings, how many spores, when do you start layer, what is the anti air of choice, when to get a forth, can I move out, how do I finish him, etc?
Here's a game I just somehow managed to win, but I felt clueless all the way through.
http://drop.sc/373209
My own notes:
To late lair > no overseer > wasnt sure of mutas
Being slightly toooo agressive
Not knowing how to attack
Terribad infestor control
Anybody could helpe mw ith these?
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Ill spare you my "omfg filthy toss ç%"ç%ç" frustration and go straight to the point:
I've given up on ZvP. At this point all i'm looking for is an efficient cheese or all in I can execute before mid game and all the 2 bases crap toss can throw at you. I used to be Plat on EU, struggling to climb back after a long'ish break. I'm all fine with getting an ok winrate vs toss obtained cheesing/early all ining and just "play" my other matchups.
Thoughts ?
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On February 05 2014 01:21 SC2Toastie wrote:
Ok, so I am trying to learn ZvZ gasless double upgrade Roach opener. I just don't know how to deal with Mutalisk openers and mass muta players.
What do you do. Gas timings, how many spores, when do you start layer, what is the anti air of choice, when to get a forth, can I move out, how do I finish him, etc?
Here's a game I just somehow managed to win, but I felt clueless all the way through.
My own notes:
To late lair > no overseer > wasnt sure of mutas
Being slightly toooo agressive
Not knowing how to attack
Terribad infestor control
Anybody could helpe mw ith these?
Without seeing a replay I will make some comments. One important key is that as soon as you know that there is no zergling pressure coming start pushing creep towards your third. Send an overlord there to start creeping it up so you can drop spores. Make a minimum of 2 spores per base. If you can get your third spored it means you do not need to rush out hydras / infestors to take your third.
Lair with first 100 gas, into 1/1 upgrades and speed.
If you get your third just sit back get 2/2 and max out you will win.
Go hydras + infestors as you will easily deal with mutas, just infestors can be hard unless you have really good control.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
zvz is roach vs muta is all about the 3rd base.
2 base roach/hydra will never kill muta
however if the roach player can cancel the 3rd of the muta whilst establishing his own 3rd with spores then he has an advantage and can take it
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On February 05 2014 01:21 SC2Toastie wrote:
Ok, so I am trying to learn ZvZ gasless double upgrade Roach opener. I just don't know how to deal with Mutalisk openers and mass muta players.
What do you do. Gas timings, how many spores, when do you start layer, what is the anti air of choice, when to get a forth, can I move out, how do I finish him, etc?
Here's a game I just somehow managed to win, but I felt clueless all the way through.
My own notes:
To late lair > no overseer > wasnt sure of mutas
Being slightly toooo agressive
Not knowing how to attack
Terribad infestor control
Anybody could helpe mw ith these?
Lol, didn't add in the Replay:
http://drop.sc/373209
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On February 05 2014 07:15 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 01:21 SC2Toastie wrote:
Ok, so I am trying to learn ZvZ gasless double upgrade Roach opener. I just don't know how to deal with Mutalisk openers and mass muta players.
What do you do. Gas timings, how many spores, when do you start layer, what is the anti air of choice, when to get a forth, can I move out, how do I finish him, etc?
Here's a game I just somehow managed to win, but I felt clueless all the way through.
My own notes:
To late lair > no overseer > wasnt sure of mutas
Being slightly toooo agressive
Not knowing how to attack
Terribad infestor control
Anybody could helpe mw ith these? Lol, didn't add in the Replay: http://drop.sc/373209
I think you use a lot of queens for muta defence until you can transition to hydras
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On February 04 2014 07:26 zasg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 04:23 Yorkie wrote:
I need help vs toss on Habitation Station. I have trouble against the fast gold base strategy when I go for fast 3 hatch and if I take my third at the gold it is very easy for them to do some kind of early gateway attack to take it out. I suppose I could just all in all the time but that's not super appealing to me. Any suggestions?
(If this has been asked before I am very sorry just let me know and I will hunt) Don't take the gold base as your third if you feel you cannot hold the pressure. The fourth base leaves you open to attacks, the map is built that way. If you are not confident in that regard just take the southern third and take gold as a fourth of fifth.
I wasn't so much saying I need help defending my third base, I was saying I need help countering the fast gold base strat from protoss. If i expand to the non-gold third I feel behind, at least until all three of my bases kick in. Basically I'm looking for a response that's not necessarily an all in that would keep me on even footing with a protoss who takes the gold early that doesn't leave me unreasonably vulnerable to early gateway timings
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EPT
