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On February 18 2015 13:47 rccars wrote: How viable is playing MMM off one base before expanding versus zerg or protoss? I've always done the reaper expand followed by a reactor'd barracks to pump out marines, but I don't like how I have to stretch my resources thinner by having two bases only to meet a bunch of lings/banes/roaches or gateway units at my natural's entrance. Granted that I'm only in gold league, but I feel like I'm more in a position of control when I get a MMM army first to possibly do some damage or get some map presence before expanding. It's won me several games where my opponent gets really tech-greedy by rushing to muta or archon (once again, I'm only in gold league).
Don't listen to the other poster if your goal is to get any better. Sticking on one base for an extended period will hurt your game. Basically everybody fast expands versus Zerg...when is the last time you saw a pro game where they didn't? Probably a two rax.
There are some gas first builds that are strong against Protoss but you can't just sit in your base making units for an extended period of time thinking you have any chance in hell because you don't. If your goal is one base all in you have to be attacking him IMMEDIATELY when your units come out AND you have to be at least mildly successful or you lose.
For the love of God expand. Probably why you are in gold league
For the longest time I've always fast expanded; it's just that I hate how I have to focus on keeping my natural expansion alive (which often fails to roach or bane busts or even a 4gate) before doing any sort of aggression. If you have safer two base builds that can lead up to an attack, do share.
On a side note: how much of an asset are banshees? They're my favorite unit and I like to pair them with hellions, but vs. zerg they become much more difficult to use as a harass unit after mutas are done and vs. protoss they cut into medivac/viking production. It seems like the best I can do is pick off 4-5 workers or chip away at army units before I have to pull out due to queens/stalkers/static defense.
On February 18 2015 13:47 rccars wrote: How viable is playing MMM off one base before expanding versus zerg or protoss? I've always done the reaper expand followed by a reactor'd barracks to pump out marines, but I don't like how I have to stretch my resources thinner by having two bases only to meet a bunch of lings/banes/roaches or gateway units at my natural's entrance. Granted that I'm only in gold league, but I feel like I'm more in a position of control when I get a MMM army first to possibly do some damage or get some map presence before expanding. It's won me several games where my opponent gets really tech-greedy by rushing to muta or archon (once again, I'm only in gold league).
Don't listen to the other poster if your goal is to get any better. Sticking on one base for an extended period will hurt your game. Basically everybody fast expands versus Zerg...when is the last time you saw a pro game where they didn't? Probably a two rax.
There are some gas first builds that are strong against Protoss but you can't just sit in your base making units for an extended period of time thinking you have any chance in hell because you don't. If your goal is one base all in you have to be attacking him IMMEDIATELY when your units come out AND you have to be at least mildly successful or you lose.
For the love of God expand. Probably why you are in gold league
For the longest time I've always fast expanded; it's just that I hate how I have to focus on keeping my natural expansion alive (which often fails to roach or bane busts or even a 4gate) before doing any sort of aggression. If you have safer two base builds that can lead up to an attack, do share.
On a side note: how much of an asset are banshees? They're my favorite unit and I like to pair them with hellions, but vs. zerg they become much more difficult to use as a harass unit after mutas are done and vs. protoss they cut into medivac/viking production. It seems like the best I can do is pick off 4-5 workers or chip away at army units before I have to pull out due to queens/stalkers/static defense.
Banshees are complete crap against Protoss. You should never get them.
Against Zerg banshees are really good in the early to mid-game. That said you don't go one base banshee against Zerg. Literally nobody does this because it is bad. You go quick expand into hellion banshee. I'm confused as to how you are dying to Zerg all ins when you go hellion-banshee. The problem is your serious lack of game knowledge when it comes to scouting an all in so you probably start pushing on the map only to lose all your hellions to speedlings AND then you die to the all in because you couldn't tell what he was up to and the units you had available to defend the all in are now dead. Hellion banshee is quite strong but you can't just make those two things and expect to win a lot of games against good players...luckily for us hellion-banshee transitions well into 4M play (marine marauder medivac mine) or into mech if that's what you want to play.
I don't play hellion banshee so you'll need to find somewhere else to learn that style in TvZ but it is very strong and worth learning
I understand "wanting to play the game how you want to play it" but if your goal is to actually improve and climb the ranks then the actual advice to give is extremely easy. Find three builds...one for each match up. Learn the build inside and out...don't miss depots don't miss upgrades don't miss production buildings don't miss making workers don't miss unit production. Next is to find a replay of a professional doing the build you have chosen to stick with. Watch what he does with his units at each part of the game.
On February 18 2015 13:47 rccars wrote: How viable is playing MMM off one base before expanding versus zerg or protoss? I've always done the reaper expand followed by a reactor'd barracks to pump out marines, but I don't like how I have to stretch my resources thinner by having two bases only to meet a bunch of lings/banes/roaches or gateway units at my natural's entrance. Granted that I'm only in gold league, but I feel like I'm more in a position of control when I get a MMM army first to possibly do some damage or get some map presence before expanding. It's won me several games where my opponent gets really tech-greedy by rushing to muta or archon (once again, I'm only in gold league).
Don't listen to the other poster if your goal is to get any better. Sticking on one base for an extended period will hurt your game. Basically everybody fast expands versus Zerg...when is the last time you saw a pro game where they didn't? Probably a two rax.
There are some gas first builds that are strong against Protoss but you can't just sit in your base making units for an extended period of time thinking you have any chance in hell because you don't. If your goal is one base all in you have to be attacking him IMMEDIATELY when your units come out AND you have to be at least mildly successful or you lose.
For the love of God expand. Probably why you are in gold league
For the longest time I've always fast expanded; it's just that I hate how I have to focus on keeping my natural expansion alive (which often fails to roach or bane busts or even a 4gate) before doing any sort of aggression. If you have safer two base builds that can lead up to an attack, do share.
On a side note: how much of an asset are banshees? They're my favorite unit and I like to pair them with hellions, but vs. zerg they become much more difficult to use as a harass unit after mutas are done and vs. protoss they cut into medivac/viking production. It seems like the best I can do is pick off 4-5 workers or chip away at army units before I have to pull out due to queens/stalkers/static defense.
Banshees are wonderful in TvT, great in TvZ and good in small squads in TvP if going mech. They are great little things but in small numbers as it eats supply fast
On February 18 2015 13:47 rccars wrote: How viable is playing MMM off one base before expanding versus zerg or protoss? I've always done the reaper expand followed by a reactor'd barracks to pump out marines, but I don't like how I have to stretch my resources thinner by having two bases only to meet a bunch of lings/banes/roaches or gateway units at my natural's entrance. Granted that I'm only in gold league, but I feel like I'm more in a position of control when I get a MMM army first to possibly do some damage or get some map presence before expanding. It's won me several games where my opponent gets really tech-greedy by rushing to muta or archon (once again, I'm only in gold league).
Don't listen to the other poster if your goal is to get any better. Sticking on one base for an extended period will hurt your game. Basically everybody fast expands versus Zerg...when is the last time you saw a pro game where they didn't? Probably a two rax.
There are some gas first builds that are strong against Protoss but you can't just sit in your base making units for an extended period of time thinking you have any chance in hell because you don't. If your goal is one base all in you have to be attacking him IMMEDIATELY when your units come out AND you have to be at least mildly successful or you lose.
For the love of God expand. Probably why you are in gold league
For the longest time I've always fast expanded; it's just that I hate how I have to focus on keeping my natural expansion alive (which often fails to roach or bane busts or even a 4gate) before doing any sort of aggression. If you have safer two base builds that can lead up to an attack, do share.
On a side note: how much of an asset are banshees? They're my favorite unit and I like to pair them with hellions, but vs. zerg they become much more difficult to use as a harass unit after mutas are done and vs. protoss they cut into medivac/viking production. It seems like the best I can do is pick off 4-5 workers or chip away at army units before I have to pull out due to queens/stalkers/static defense.
Banshees are wonderful in TvT, great in TvZ and good in small squads in TvP if going mech. They are great little things but in small numbers as it eats supply fast
Hellions and Banshees are units that will eat supply fast versus their cost. It's not such a bad thing in the early game if you need to throw a lot of resources into banshees asap.
At what point do you usually start producing thor hellbat in TvZ and is it done with 2 or 3 factorys? Lets say for example when going for normal 2 reaper 3 cc build and zerg is going for normal macro Muta/Ling/Bling.
On February 21 2015 10:17 SacredCoconut wrote: At what point do you usually start producing thor hellbat in TvZ and is it done with 2 or 3 factorys? Lets say for example when going for normal 2 reaper 3 cc build and zerg is going for normal macro Muta/Ling/Bling.
You can either play a style where you get a fast second factory (11 minutes) with a techlab and then reactor mines or hellbats and produce 1 thor at a time (it's never a bad idea to have thors), or you can do a style where you go up to 8 barracks first, and then drop 2 factories for a total of 3 later (more around 15 minutes), both with tech labs.
On February 21 2015 10:17 SacredCoconut wrote: At what point do you usually start producing thor hellbat in TvZ and is it done with 2 or 3 factorys? Lets say for example when going for normal 2 reaper 3 cc build and zerg is going for normal macro Muta/Ling/Bling.
Mines are superior and will generally kept being made throughout the game. The second factory goes down around the 10:30 to 11 minute mark with an immediate tech lab made and then drilling claws researched soon after. When to produce Thors is a matter of preference and as an answer to heavier muta play in which case you can start getting them immediately if you wish or you can produce a third widow mine out of the factory which I think is preferable for a little bit to allow you to spend your immediate resources on more marines/medivacs/mines.
Also...instead of hellbat production perhaps you were thinking of heavier Marauder production? Marauders are a much better answer to rising Baneling numbers than hellbats. I cannot even describe how many TvZ's I win because of having good micro to let the Marauders soak up Baneling hits. Keep the Marauders out front and the Marines split behind them...this way either your opponent blows his Banelings up on your Marauders or your concussive shells slow down the Banelings to allow your marines to split more effectively.
If you play mech in TvZ and the Zerg is upgrading to greater spire you need to produce lots of Vikings in order to counter Brood Lords. But instead of going Brood Lord he produces 15+ Ultras and roll you over since you Vikings are useless vs Ultras.
Or you scout Ultralisk den and Greater Spire and I assume he is going Ultras so your produce Tank/Thor/Hellbat and he attacks with mass Brood Lords and you die since you do not have enough Vikings?
Basically how do you know in time if he is going for Ultras or Brood Lords in TvZ? In TvT and TvP you can check his composition as it changes over time, but Zerg produce everything they need in just one production cycle. So how do you counter this as a Mech player?
Well one way is to scan and harass his outer bases to keep tabs on his army. But in reality as long as you build up to mass terran air and focus on anti air it doesnt matter if he goes ultras since yamato cannons or banshees will kill them all and you can building lift. You just need to make sure you can hold swarmhost and mass air so focus on builing an anti air army.
Essentially aim to win the air battle and then dominate from there.
On February 22 2015 03:28 MockHamill wrote: How do you know in time if he is going for Ultras or Brood Lords in TvZ? In TvT and TvP you can check his composition as it changes over time, but Zerg produce everything they need in just one production cycle. So how do you counter this as a Mech player?
It really depends on the situation and how you play mech, there isn't really an answer here that will work every time in every situation. If your opponent has 50+ supply free you can probably push and do significant amounts of damage before the transition, and you'll be able to tell what he's making behind it anyway. If you prefer to play more passive, make a lot of (~8) orbitals and sacrifice ~20 SCVs and you'll have more army supply to make a more well rounded composition (and plenty of scans available as well).
Scan often and look for Corruptors once the Greater Spire starts, you should have enough anti-air in your army to reactively deal with a 'sudden' Brood Lord transition (or you're going to be having much bigger troubles vs Mutalisk transitions).
Thors generally do well vs either Broods or Ultras (and Mutas as well), so having a decent number mixed into your composition is rarely a bad thing.
Ravens are also a good option, autoturrets can take ~4-5 ultralisk hits for a relatively small energy cost and PDD will make a smaller Viking count vastly more efficient vs Corruptors. Seeker Missile can be used situationally.
Battlecruisers w/ Yamato can pick off Brood's and quickly kill Ultralisks. Also really good for dealing with Spore spam.
Adding in Banshees for harass (ala Happy) or vs a Roach composition can also double as a safety net vs an Ultralisk transition later.
On February 22 2015 03:28 MockHamill wrote: If you play mech in TvZ and the Zerg is upgrading to greater spire you need to produce lots of Vikings in order to counter Brood Lords. But instead of going Brood Lord he produces 15+ Ultras and roll you over since you Vikings are useless vs Ultras.
Or you scout Ultralisk den and Greater Spire and I assume he is going Ultras so your produce Tank/Thor/Hellbat and he attacks with mass Brood Lords and you die since you do not have enough Vikings?
Basically how do you know in time if he is going for Ultras or Brood Lords in TvZ? In TvT and TvP you can check his composition as it changes over time, but Zerg produce everything they need in just one production cycle. So how do you counter this as a Mech player?
If you're ever in a scenario where he has enough bases (gas income) where he can afford that kind of tech switch you should be sitting behind your 4 bases with a well developed mech-ball that has the vikings/thors necessary to stop a Brood Lord frenzy.
Staying in a defensive position behind a sensor tower and turrets/buildings should give you the breathing room to be able to scan and keep tabs on what he's putting into his army. Being defensive is going to make Ultralisks a non-issue since they basically can never overcome siege tanks hiding behind buildings lol... And you shouldn't be out on the map if you know your opponent has that much money ready to pull on you.
On February 21 2015 10:17 SacredCoconut wrote: At what point do you usually start producing thor hellbat in TvZ and is it done with 2 or 3 factorys? Lets say for example when going for normal 2 reaper 3 cc build and zerg is going for normal macro Muta/Ling/Bling.
After you have 5 barracks and 1 factory / 1 starport down, build the second factory (and then 2 more barracks)
Some players like to build mines before switching into hellbat production, this is useful as you can save minerals to get your infrastructure faster. Other players like to build their hellbat count (from the original 6-8 hellions) as soon as the factory is done producing 2 reactors for the starport and itself. This is also preference.
The third factory is unnecessary as long as you're consistently producing 2 hellbats and 1 thor at a time off the original factory and the tech lab factory. You're going to want to keep producing off your 5, and then 7 barracks as this is happening as well since the marines and marauders are going to provide the dps in your deathball with stimpack, so having the extra 200/150 resources for the factory, and then additional 200 resources each production cycle spent on a third factory is going to hamper producing MM.
Don't be discouraged by the above poster. If you believe that Hellbat/Thor is what's going to help you and appeal to you then 100% you should do it. But make sure you realize what the strengths and weaknesses are of Hellbat/Thor is and consider the more flexible Widow Mines as well.
normally i find solutions for problems myself but lately i've faced a strategy in tvp i really don't know how i should deal with.
some protoss players go for dt drops and don't drop them immediately but wait until i move halfway across the map with my medivac push and then drop them into my base. the few reinforcements i have are just not enough to kill them and he just snipes my turrets in main and natural and then waits until I'm out of scans. I really have no clue what to do against it, it's extremely hard to scout because collossi aren't that much delayed and later than usual collossus not always mean DTs. the dark shrine is also often proxied somewhere on the map. I have offraced a bit as protoss to see how other terrans deal with it but i won every game with that strategy so that didn't help me either.
It seems like the only solution is to leave a few units at home, but if he isn't gonna drop you, you weakened your army for nothing.
What's a good time to push with mech if you've scouted at least some roaches? 2/2 ~ 160 supply?
If I go mech and I see no roaches I usually push with my first 2 thors and a bunch of hellions, against a stupid greedy zerg this can win it but often it'll get cleared up by mass speedlings, it might not be super efficient but I find it works for me.
If I scout roaches with my hellions I tend to go for 2 tanks first and macro up with a few thors and tanks with hellions out on the map.
Assuming I scout more than 6 roaches I assume he's either going mass roach hydra viper (in which case I need vikings before I move out) or he'll get swarm hosts at some point. My problem is swarm hosts, I just don't know how to push out against them without crazy APM by inching forward slowly into the locusts or just sitting back and turtling, is there a sweet spot to hit zerg just before SH pop, should I try to out manuever them? I feel like this could cost me my third / fourth to locusts? Should I and split my army and do hellion drops, splitting off some mech to push a base he hasn't covered? Sometimes they get 8 or so mutas so drops / banshees become pretty hard to use and considering just how bloody far SH can be you can't easily fall back to thor support with banshees.
I love mech, it's a great tool to have in my arsenal but right now it feels like I can do better in my current league by just getting 3 bases and parade pushing 4M for a much easier win where I can flex some multitasking muscle. Against a non SH player mech is still fun, juggling vikings and pushing the right areas, stopping creep, but I feel like SH just confines me to 3-4 bases and if I try to just turtle and go mass air I will just die to mass corrupter or die to locusts because I cant deal with mass corrupter without sacrificing tanks for vikings or thors.
On February 27 2015 19:57 adwodon wrote: What's a good time to push with mech if you've scouted at least some roaches? 2/2 ~ 160 supply?
If I go mech and I see no roaches I usually push with my first 2 thors and a bunch of hellions, against a stupid greedy zerg this can win it but often it'll get cleared up by mass speedlings, it might not be super efficient but I find it works for me.
If I scout roaches with my hellions I tend to go for 2 tanks first and macro up with a few thors and tanks with hellions out on the map.
Assuming I scout more than 6 roaches I assume he's either going mass roach hydra viper (in which case I need vikings before I move out) or he'll get swarm hosts at some point. My problem is swarm hosts, I just don't know how to push out against them without crazy APM by inching forward slowly into the locusts or just sitting back and turtling, is there a sweet spot to hit zerg just before SH pop, should I try to out manuever them? I feel like this could cost me my third / fourth to locusts? Should I and split my army and do hellion drops, splitting off some mech to push a base he hasn't covered? Sometimes they get 8 or so mutas so drops / banshees become pretty hard to use and considering just how bloody far SH can be you can't easily fall back to thor support with banshees.
I love mech, it's a great tool to have in my arsenal but right now it feels like I can do better in my current league by just getting 3 bases and parade pushing 4M for a much easier win where I can flex some multitasking muscle. Against a non SH player mech is still fun, juggling vikings and pushing the right areas, stopping creep, but I feel like SH just confines me to 3-4 bases and if I try to just turtle and go mass air I will just die to mass corrupter or die to locusts because I cant deal with mass corrupter without sacrificing tanks for vikings or thors.
Highly dependant by your build, what did you opened, hellion/banshee? hellbats? both? fast 3d CC? What did you follow up with, double armory? 2 fact? more than 2 facts?
The mech push is (or at least should be) a part of your build (as in you are doing it regardles), against fast SH I do it like Gumiho, doing an agresive opener with hellbat/banshee then you follow up with a 2 base push with 2 thors and 2 tanks (and constant banshee/hellbat), what you do is attack with everything while pulling some SCV for repairs and set a contain betwen nat and 3rd (works better on some maps) and behind you take your third (you can skip some hellbats for this as they are just meat shields).
(will edit when I found a good Gumiho game to show my point :p)
Against roaches if you survived the early attack is better to take a fast 3rd and go double armory and get to 5 factory, once you have 2-2 your army just melts roaches, you don't need to do frontal assaults if you don't want to start a base trade, if you want to be aggressive before max do constant hellion/banshee harras, you can also abuse map terran to stablish multiple siege spots perhaps even ading some medivacs to do tank/hellbat drops.
Do note that this is only if there are no mutas, if there are mutas you have to be more careful and have a sizeable sky army, as contrary to common opinion mutas are far better at stoping a mech army for going aggressive than swarmhost.
Also if you want you can just go balls to the wall and siege forward in his face until he is dead.
I don't feel like playing TvP at moment and would just like to focus on TvZ and TvT macro games. Would there be good cheese/all in builds that i could use to kinda skip the match up on ladder.
On March 02 2015 11:08 azngamer828 wrote: in TvP or in general, how many rax can i support with 2 bases?
There are a few ways to go about it.
5 rax, 2 reactor 3 tech lab, 1 reactor starport is typical. You can add mines as well, and it's a good idea if the opponent isn't going colossus or you're doing very heavy medivac aggression.
5 rax, 1 reactor 2 tech lab (or I suppose just 4 rax with 2 reactors 2 techlab) with 2 reactor starport is good if you intent to go 2 base scv pull, or 3 base with little to no scvs. You can't support that much marauder production when going 2 reactor starport but having plenty of vikings is helpful.
In other matchups it's still 5 rax, just 1 tech lab 4 reactor for many marines.
It's been a while since i posted here. I've been promoted to plat a few days ago and i'm struggling hard here. Zergs are becoming a problem. I barely win games against them.
I usually go mech against Zergs but it seems i can't deal with Swarm hosts, brood lords, corruptors and infestors.
I tried to take my four bases asap and build starports. However he contained me, i tried to attack, to do runbys with my hellions but i didnt achieve anything.
EPT
