EPTAlternatively practice Banshee openers since having 2-4 of those out deter roaches reasonably well. Just have good vision of the map so he can't sneak the buggers out somehow, and be sure to check his front to see if there's a roach warren or any roaches showing up.
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 339
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Alternatively practice Banshee openers since having 2-4 of those out deter roaches reasonably well. Just have good vision of the map so he can't sneak the buggers out somehow, and be sure to check his front to see if there's a roach warren or any roaches showing up. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Normally I place down a bunker as soon as possible in order to take out the hatchery and then expand to my 3rd since creep prevents me from taking my natural in time. But after this should I continue with my game plan as usual (ie hellion drop into mech) or should I try to do a massive counter attack before he get his economy up? | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
can't be arsed to play against such an idiotic style seriously i just leave such games because i can't do anything other than just mass an army which can't attack into him | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
how do you break an idiot terran who is fixated on doing 2 base turtle with turrets and tanks? can't be arsed to play against such an idiotic style seriously i just leave such games because i can't do anything other than just mass an army which can't attack into him My experience is get good map vision on possible areas where he can use medivacs to set up drops and just camp him just outside his natural with turrets tanks and your army and start taking the map and tech up to sky terran .... So basically you give him what he wants but make it impossible for him to take a 3rd or atleast make it so painful that he can't remax nowhere near as fast as you and you will win the follow up battle No problem... sometimes it comes down to recognizing that you did horrible in the engagement and needed to load up medivacs and drop on his tanks to make a dent in his tank count so that he can't comfortably make tanks and vikings at the same time to stop you from either pushing on the ground or dropping on him... | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
but i guess i'll take it, what choice do i have | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On February 13 2015 04:30 MockHamill wrote: In TvZ if you plan to open rax-factory-CC-starport into a hellion drop and your opponent builds a hatchery in your natural was is the correct response? The Zerg do this in order to get a Queen out as fast as possible and plant down creep tumours in order to delay you taking your natural. Normally I place down a bunker as soon as possible in order to take out the hatchery and then expand to my 3rd since creep prevents me from taking my natural in time. But after this should I continue with my game plan as usual (ie hellion drop into mech) or should I try to do a massive counter attack before he get his economy up? Just get a fast tank...tech builds like the one you are talking about opening with are really strong against proxy hatches. Ravens are also pretty amazing in clearing the creep without having to burn scans. | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On February 13 2015 04:52 Incognoto wrote: how do you break an idiot terran who is fixated on doing 2 base turtle with turrets and tanks? can't be arsed to play against such an idiotic style seriously i just leave such games because i can't do anything other than just mass an army which can't attack into him I like to go YOLO with ridiculous amounts of marauders. | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
Things I am trying: - early armory, this is nice to defend very early tank marine pushes with hellbats but if he attack later with 3 tanks and like 20 marines the hellbats melt. - tank and reactored viking, to have vikings in position vs drops and 1 tank at each base? But if he does a big drop that I dont catch or attack at front my army is very immobile and naked tanks wont help vs bio tank pushes. Also he can just contain me on this map and I can never take third. - 3 factory before third cc, I have a lot of units but also need more gas and my third cc is so late that my eco will be very bad. - opening just make tank viking with later factories. Seems strong in defense but also pretty immobile and constant tanks cost so much gas that my production will be late. Also the marine will be useless later, 8 marines is 400 mineral which is a cc. - 2 fact with or without armory before third? - make few hellions then switch to techlab and tanks? Thoughts? Ideally of course I want everything, tanks, hellbats, vikings, turretring, sensor tower. But I cant afford all that and a normal third cc and more factories. What should I prioritize, do I just need reactoed vikings and catch doomdrops before they come, is mech just that bad on certain maps like vaani? Even if I defend my 2 bases I feel like I can never move down the ramp to take the third. Thanks. | ||
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2d_Sparrow
New Zealand34 Posts
On February 13 2015 07:56 Aquila- wrote: Another thing: TvT, I dont like gas first so I usually do reaper or 15 gas expand, into hellions, then I like to mech. I have a lot of trouble lately defending tank pushes and drops (the one with 2 tanks 8 marines and 3 autoturrets). On maps like Vaani station, opponent can drop natural, main, siege main cliff or just contain me since the main has such a small ramp. I dont see the attack or drop coming and breaking it is extremely inefficient and I lose many workers. Things I am trying: - early armory, this is nice to defend very early tank marine pushes with hellbats but if he attack later with 3 tanks and like 20 marines the hellbats melt. - tank and reactored viking, to have vikings in position vs drops and 1 tank at each base? But if he does a big drop that I dont catch or attack at front my army is very immobile and naked tanks wont help vs bio tank pushes. Also he can just contain me on this map and I can never take third. - 3 factory before third cc, I have a lot of units but also need more gas and my third cc is so late that my eco will be very bad. - opening just make tank viking with later factories. Seems strong in defense but also pretty immobile and constant tanks cost so much gas that my production will be late. Also the marine will be useless later, 8 marines is 400 mineral which is a cc. - 2 fact with or without armory before third? - make few hellions then switch to techlab and tanks? Thoughts? Ideally of course I want everything, tanks, hellbats, vikings, turretring, sensor tower. But I cant afford all that and a normal third cc and more factories. What should I prioritize, do I just need reactoed vikings and catch doomdrops before they come, is mech just that bad on certain maps like vaani? Even if I defend my 2 bases I feel like I can never move down the ramp to take the third. Thanks. As long as you've been constantly making units it shouldn't really matter what your composition is that early into the game, what is more important is scouting what your opponents composition is and having units out on the map to scout for his army position. For example, if you're worried about the double tank drop with auto turrets stick a unit outside your opponents natural ramp. If his army is not pushing out onto the map it means that you can position your army in your base in a better position to deflect the drop. Same goes for if he pushes across the map, tank pushes are hard to defend if the tanks get into a good siege position, but if you catch them before that position they are much easier to stop. Just move into a position in an open area where you can intercept his push, you can even pull a few scvs in advance. When he moves in surround him. If you've been macroing correctly you should have more units and hold off the push. | ||
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2d_Sparrow
New Zealand34 Posts
On February 13 2015 04:30 MockHamill wrote: In TvZ if you plan to open rax-factory-CC-starport into a hellion drop and your opponent builds a hatchery in your natural was is the correct response? The Zerg do this in order to get a Queen out as fast as possible and plant down creep tumours in order to delay you taking your natural. Normally I place down a bunker as soon as possible in order to take out the hatchery and then expand to my 3rd since creep prevents me from taking my natural in time. But after this should I continue with my game plan as usual (ie hellion drop into mech) or should I try to do a massive counter attack before he get his economy up? I can't find it to reference it but a guy on TL showed the math behind pulling workers against a proxy hatchery. If you are proxied in the early game you should pull all of your workers to kill it. I didn't really think it would work after I read the analysis but I've been doing it every time I get proxied and it has always worked out for me. | ||
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2d_Sparrow
New Zealand34 Posts
On February 13 2015 04:52 Incognoto wrote: how do you break an idiot terran who is fixated on doing 2 base turtle with turrets and tanks? can't be arsed to play against such an idiotic style seriously i just leave such games because i can't do anything other than just mass an army which can't attack into him First off have fun with it! If he's turtling on 2 bases just make sure to contain him really well, build turrets have lots of siege tanks take lots of expansions and then you can start teching to air or getting nukes. The longer he's in there on his 2 bases the further he's getting behind, just make sure you have defense at your bases for drops and you have lots of production buildings. His goal is to generally build the most cost efficient composition that he can, that way when he moves out he will kill your army and then push across the map with the hope that you won't be able to reinforce in time. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On February 13 2015 04:52 Incognoto wrote: how do you break an idiot terran who is fixated on doing 2 base turtle with turrets and tanks? can't be arsed to play against such an idiotic style seriously i just leave such games because i can't do anything other than just mass an army which can't attack into him surround him with sensor tower coverage and tanks, turrets etc whilst outexpanding hard and adding an air force. With vikings you have vision to creep tanks forward into range of his stuff and slowly chip him out. If he's adding ravens then add your own plus maybe a thor or two. Raven/viking wars are basically about darting in, seeker missile-ing some tanks and putting a fwe on your opponents air frce whilst having enough PDD's up to prevent any damage as you dart out. Once he doesn't have tanks you can move up marines or thors or whatever. This can be dragged out for a really long time but if you play it right there's no way to lose. Also check to see if he's got a hidden base somewhere as well. In TvZ if you plan to open rax-factory-CC-starport into a hellion drop and your opponent builds a hatchery in your natural was is the correct response? The Zerg do this in order to get a Queen out as fast as possible and plant down creep tumours in order to delay you taking your natural. Normally I place down a bunker as soon as possible in order to take out the hatchery and then expand to my 3rd since creep prevents me from taking my natural in time. But after this should I continue with my game plan as usual (ie hellion drop into mech) or should I try to do a massive counter attack before he get his economy up? This hasn't happened to me in a long time so my response might be a bit sloppy, but generally vs this sort of thing I like to make a bunker right next to the hatchery and rally marines to it. Once the factory is done rally hellions there too. I rally scvs after I've got 16 on minerals and 3 on gas. Once the queen pops, leave the bunker and hunt her down. It's very important you snipe the first creep tumour before it finishes. If you're adding gas before expanding you should have enough units to handle all this without any threat of getting overwhelmed by lings or whatever and if you snipe the queen or tumour before it becomes a problem you'll be able to expand to your nat and not your third. This strategy come into favour against CC on high ground openers (thanks Catz!) and when Terran would almost always open reaper. But now we do a fair few marine openers and it's suicidal against those so I don't really see it anymore in my games. Another thing: TvT, I dont like gas first so I usually do reaper or 15 gas expand, into hellions, then I like to mech. I have a lot of trouble lately defending tank pushes and drops (the one with 2 tanks 8 marines and 3 autoturrets). On maps like Vaani station, opponent can drop natural, main, siege main cliff or just contain me since the main has such a small ramp. I dont see the attack or drop coming and breaking it is extremely inefficient and I lose many workers. Things I am trying: - early armory, this is nice to defend very early tank marine pushes with hellbats but if he attack later with 3 tanks and like 20 marines the hellbats melt. - tank and reactored viking, to have vikings in position vs drops and 1 tank at each base? But if he does a big drop that I dont catch or attack at front my army is very immobile and naked tanks wont help vs bio tank pushes. Also he can just contain me on this map and I can never take third. - 3 factory before third cc, I have a lot of units but also need more gas and my third cc is so late that my eco will be very bad. - opening just make tank viking with later factories. Seems strong in defense but also pretty immobile and constant tanks cost so much gas that my production will be late. Also the marine will be useless later, 8 marines is 400 mineral which is a cc. - 2 fact with or without armory before third? - make few hellions then switch to techlab and tanks? Thoughts? Ideally of course I want everything, tanks, hellbats, vikings, turretring, sensor tower. But I cant afford all that and a normal third cc and more factories. What should I prioritize, do I just need reactoed vikings and catch doomdrops before they come, is mech just that bad on certain maps like vaani? Even if I defend my 2 bases I feel like I can never move down the ramp to take the third. Thanks. My knowledge of playing mech is a bit shaky so I don't think I can give you really solid advice, but I would recommend you attempt to learn some gas first openers. I think they transition into mech better then the faster expansion builds (at least that's what it looks like from my own games) and it's a good way to play TvT. At the very least it makes you more unpredictable in your play and that's a good thing in a mirror matchup. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On February 13 2015 06:52 Incognoto wrote: ahh that's just anti-fun but i guess i'll take it, what choice do i have Actually, it is fun! you just need to turn your mindset the other way around : if you manage, in any TvT, to contain your opponent on 2 bases, you win. Cause really he can't do much on 2 base and if your countain is correctly set up he will always always loose more than you when he goes and tries to break it. You just have to take your third during the contain and your reprod will eventually kill him no matter what. (On the opposite side of things, if your opponent contains you, you're like sitting on a time bomb and you have to break the contain asap...) So even if you opponent is not the turtling type, you should always look for this kind of position and try to siege your tanks near his natural each time you have the tiniest opening to do this. Learn to put your opponent out of position with drops and to use any mistake in his armies movements to get a position advantage. Played that way, TvT is indeed fun. Watch MMA vs INno in GSL ro16, to see how pros to it. | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
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imre
France9263 Posts
On February 10 2015 03:05 mau5mat wrote: Wondering if anyone could recommend some good, recent TvT games. My win-rate in TvT this season is absolutely abysmal, and I can't quite place why, it has been my highest % w/r and most consistent MU by far in HotS/WoL. Preferably Maru/Flash/Innovation/Taeja Thanks If you're willing to play mech just spam the gas first with a reaper build, you can get it from some FlaSh vods from HSC (game on deadwing vs TaeJa) Get your vods here: sc2links.com On February 13 2015 07:56 Aquila- wrote: Another thing: TvT, I dont like gas first so I usually do reaper or 15 gas expand, into hellions, then I like to mech. I have a lot of trouble lately defending tank pushes and drops (the one with 2 tanks 8 marines and 3 autoturrets). On maps like Vaani station, opponent can drop natural, main, siege main cliff or just contain me since the main has such a small ramp. I dont see the attack or drop coming and breaking it is extremely inefficient and I lose many workers. Things I am trying: - early armory, this is nice to defend very early tank marine pushes with hellbats but if he attack later with 3 tanks and like 20 marines the hellbats melt. - tank and reactored viking, to have vikings in position vs drops and 1 tank at each base? But if he does a big drop that I dont catch or attack at front my army is very immobile and naked tanks wont help vs bio tank pushes. Also he can just contain me on this map and I can never take third. - 3 factory before third cc, I have a lot of units but also need more gas and my third cc is so late that my eco will be very bad. - opening just make tank viking with later factories. Seems strong in defense but also pretty immobile and constant tanks cost so much gas that my production will be late. Also the marine will be useless later, 8 marines is 400 mineral which is a cc. - 2 fact with or without armory before third? - make few hellions then switch to techlab and tanks? Thoughts? Ideally of course I want everything, tanks, hellbats, vikings, turretring, sensor tower. But I cant afford all that and a normal third cc and more factories. What should I prioritize, do I just need reactoed vikings and catch doomdrops before they come, is mech just that bad on certain maps like vaani? Even if I defend my 2 bases I feel like I can never move down the ramp to take the third. Thanks. The drop version is defended easily by a good chunk of hellions and good positionning. Add a quick second fac that'll use your port tech lab once your raven is done (your port goes viking-raven, then switches on a reactor made by your rax) You use the second fac to produce tanks so you don't fall behind too much in the tank count, you got this set up before taking a 3rd: 1reactored fac, 1reactored port and 1tech lab fac. You can have your air fleet patrolling around your nat and most your units on your ramp/near the 3rd. so you're not stucked. On a more open map you can skip tanks and go mass bfh (deadwing ie) Then you add the 3rd, a 3rd fac and an armory. When your economy is rolling you can start to add turrets and 2more fac, either going for medivacs or a good viking count if you want to transition into quick banshees. | ||
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bjyhwang
United States5 Posts
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:16 bjyhwang wrote: How do you scout zerg all ins at different timings? I've been getting rolled over by roach/ling timing, speedling timing, 3hatch roach ling bane timing, 2base timings and etc. I've found that unless I go reaper opening, there is no way of finding what zerg is up to until the first hellions come out (assumimg i went rax gas cc). What are some things I should check with my first hellions? Usually when I try to scout how many drones/queens the opponent has, my hellions get surrounded by speedlings and I just get rolled over after that. I guess my opponents do a good job of hiding the lings and roaches until theyre ready to attack. But I just never seem to be able to get bunkers up in time to defend it. Begin to develop an understanding of what all-in will come off of certain gas timings/total gas mined. | ||
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TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2654 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
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