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Maru isn't the only terran to be doing 15 gas stuff in TvZ, I believe TY and flash and some others have been busting it out in Proleague.
The main explanation for this metagame shift I think is that Zergs don't really take damage from 1 rax reaper openings anymore. Maybe they'll lose a ling or two but usually not even that. So we stopped doing 2 and 3 reaper builds to just doing 1 reaper to poke around and expand faster and now we've just cut the reapers altogether and opened 15 gas and marines.
With this we get a fast factory timing after expanding and with the initial 2-6 marines we can hunt overlords, load up in a medivac to harass or threaten the third, or just be safer against any speedling shenanigans the Zerg may attempt. It's a good build I think.
Maru does go triple CC against life in the finals, on Overgrowth. I feel this is a very weak 3 cc build by itself but if all the zerg sees is 15 gas then I suspect they will probably try and play safe, expecting banshees or a medivac or something, and maybe it's not too bad. Maru had been showing a variety of 15 gas openers throughout the tournament so it was certainly possible.
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On February 02 2015 14:12 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2015 13:51 Grizvok wrote:
So how are people feeling about Maru and how he likes to forego the Reaper in TvZ and instead get the later gas? I can't recall if I have ever seen him go three cc off of that opener but I believe he has. Regardless this is mostly theory crafting about a build that I would like to test out. Obviously scouting is important in any match up but my main concern with this greedy build is of course any all in that will punish that greed. I know I lose some early map control without the Reaper but in general I do plan to be dilligent with the hellions after 4 are out to help spot the third base timing as well as to deny creep and poke at queens. I like making 8 hellions as I think it helps me out in grabbing stronger map control as well as to give initial pushes more oomph.
Will the extra marines out early be safer than a normal reaper expand into three cc by sacrificing a little scouting and early map control? I also think I gain a lot by having the potential to perhaps snipe an overlord as well as to deny any overlord scouts.
Obviously I love the way Maru normally plays his later gas opener by going for the fast starport and slightly later cc which works out great since he keeps the Zerg at home defending while he macros up. Unfortunately I don't quite think I have the APM and multitasking to pull it off at a high level so I've decided to work on a very macro heavy approach that is focused on a stronger mid game and late game push as opposed to the harass and macro variety. I'm not sure how much Maru's 15 gas builds are true macro builds as opposed to more meta plays that try to look like Cure's 15 gas hellbat build and a couple other 15 gas hellbat builds, especially since he can easily deny scouting with his large marine count. Also, I didn't watch Soulkey vs. Maru but whenever I saw him do the 15 gas it was on Overgrowth so he may have also been trying to abuse overlord scouting patterns to pick off the first one, as on that map the first overlord goes generally in the direction of the barracks, and also 2rax is common enough there that the overlord could poke in even more. In general, I think it may have just been a meta play. I don't feel that it transitions very well into 3CC (you have to delay your factory to make it work.) I think it works quite nicely with either medivac or banshee plays, but if you want to go 3CC I think 1 rax expo is better if you really want to pick off overlords. CC first/reaper reactor/2reaper builds all work perfectly fine if you aren't looking to kill either of the first 2 scouting overlords.
Hmmm thanks. I don't really think the factory has to be that delayed though, does it?
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On February 02 2015 15:53 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Maru isn't the only terran to be doing 15 gas stuff in TvZ, I believe TY and flash and some others have been busting it out in Proleague.
The main explanation for this metagame shift I think is that Zergs don't really take damage from 1 rax reaper openings anymore. Maybe they'll lose a ling or two but usually not even that. So we stopped doing 2 and 3 reaper builds to just doing 1 reaper to poke around and expand faster and now we've just cut the reapers altogether and opened 15 gas and marines.
With this we get a fast factory timing after expanding and with the initial 2-6 marines we can hunt overlords, load up in a medivac to harass or threaten the third, or just be safer against any speedling shenanigans the Zerg may attempt. It's a good build I think.
Maru does go triple CC against life in the finals, on Overgrowth. I feel this is a very weak 3 cc build by itself but if all the zerg sees is 15 gas then I suspect they will probably try and play safe, expecting banshees or a medivac or something, and maybe it's not too bad. Maru had been showing a variety of 15 gas openers throughout the tournament so it was certainly possible.
Yeah...that's my thinking basically. The Reaper is good for spotting a potential very early baneling bust or speedling timing, but doesn't really help all that much in defending the all in whereas the Marines are so valuable in having to fill up bunkers, deny scouts, kill early overlords, etc.
I think naturally as my APM and multi-tasking increases I would want to transition into a banshee opener into 3cc, but until then I want to have to focus on macro as the back-bone of my game plan.
The problem I guess is that I'm really not at the super-high level (I'm diamond) where a Zerg would immediately see the 15 gas and play safe...for the most part I think if they have an aggressive build planned they will probably go through with it regardless of what I'm doing...unless they see me playing mech or something.
I'm really just looking for something solid that is middle of the road...I love the greed of 3CC and have been grinding a typical 3CC build out game after game after game after game against a very easy AI and am getting so much better at hitting the benchmarks and knowing what I need to do. Perfecting builds in that stress-free environment has helped my game considerably.
The problem then is when an all-in comes my way. I sort of adapted to the problem by going with INnoVation's single reaper 3CC which gets 8 hellions as opposed to 4 or 6, but I still find myself sort of weak to a few early game timings. Perhaps I should just force myself to open banshee. Granted, the all-ins are getting easier to hold as my game knowledge increases and I can better understand what is coming my way from the scouting and information that the Reaper does provide. I've also always been curious as to what people thought of throwing down a DEFENSIVE armory after a 3CC build if an aggressive timing or all-in is spotted from the Zerg.
Sorry for the rambling...
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Hi guys! Can you help me with something?
I play as terran and have a horrible problem facing protoss deathballs. I tried to split in concave, use mines, ghosts, vikings, and still losing for that shit. Almost ever the storm do the dirty work and I die without couse any damage.
Almost ever i reach to 3-3 and 200/200 first and get much more expansions, but I still losing for the ball.
I´ll upload some replays for u guys apreciate. : )
http://drop.sc/393382
http://drop.sc/393381
http://drop.sc/393380
And this one, that protoss knock down my army even after I dropped around 4 or 5 of his nexus. Sorry for the badmanner and rage on this one, but It´s so damm inadmissible that one race can win even losing so much bases and playing against an enemy with so much more expansions. But the other guy dont have guilt. I´m so ashamed.
http://drop.sc/393382
What need I to do to win when protoss reach protoss ball? I tried all: drop, hit the expansions, kit his army to far of the objetive (like the main nexus or some exp).
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Honestly you should probably just be trying to get 2 base macro right before attempting 3 base macro. 2 base builds aren't the best but a properly executed 2 base build is better then a weakly executed 3 base build.. Learn to crawl before you run.
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On February 03 2015 10:55 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Honestly you should probably just be trying to get 2 base macro right before attempting 3 base macro. 2 base builds aren't the best but a properly executed 2 base build is better then a weakly executed 3 base build.. Learn to crawl before you run.
I can macro fine off of two bases no problem. I think most "macro" players in the Diamond league can. Most openers I did for the first year'ish I played were two base builds that I typically expanded off of the attack. I honestly love being aggressive so two base builds do fit my playstyle more than something like a 3CC, but I think I need to broaden my horizons and tackle something more difficult if only in TvZ. My TvT and TvP play stay on 2 bases for a considerable time.
Yes, yes I am well aware that macro can get better...never missing depots, less queued units, not missing workers but I do work on those things.
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On February 03 2015 12:06 Grizvok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 10:55 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Honestly you should probably just be trying to get 2 base macro right before attempting 3 base macro. 2 base builds aren't the best but a properly executed 2 base build is better then a weakly executed 3 base build.. Learn to crawl before you run. I can macro fine off of two bases no problem. I think most "macro" players in the Diamond league can. Most openers I did for the first year'ish I played were two base builds that I typically expanded off of the attack. I honestly love being aggressive so two base builds do fit my playstyle more than something like a 3CC, but I think I need to broaden my horizons and tackle something more difficult if only in TvZ. My TvT and TvP play stay on 2 bases for a considerable time. Yes, yes I am well aware that macro can get better...never missing depots, less queued units, not missing workers but I do work on those things.
I'd recommend the Bomber gasless 3CC into double factory into double ups and bio. It's a 3CC macro build, it is as safe as can be for a 3CC and in diamond league, if the zerg doesn't react well to your macro lead, you can just kill him with the first big 2-2 push...
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Does anyone have a replay of anyone beating proxy tempest, It seems ridiculously strong.
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On February 04 2015 19:23 2d_Sparrow wrote:
Does anyone have a replay of anyone beating proxy tempest, It seems ridiculously strong.
When I faced this on ladder (High diamond EU) I made marines only and dropped him with 2 Medivacs while holding the base with Vikings and Turrets (repair). The protoss has almost no units which means you can kill his base.
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On February 04 2015 20:03 TurboMaN wrote:
When I faced this on ladder (High diamond EU) I made marines only and dropped him with 2 Medivacs while holding the base with Vikings and Turrets (repair). The protoss has almost no units which means you can kill his base.
Replay pls, everyone says don't make vikings or turrets vs this so i have no idea how you held.
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On February 04 2015 19:23 2d_Sparrow wrote:
Does anyone have a replay of anyone beating proxy tempest, It seems ridiculously strong.
The one time I've played this on ladder I was lucky enough to havw gone reaper expo into mine drop and also scoutrd it immediately (so like 5 minutes in) so I reactored out vikings. However, this wouldnt have worked it I hadnt scouted it so fast.
Whenever I see Rotti lose with it on stream the key to beating it seems to be not overstimming (actually not stimming to kill the tempests at all) and not losing very many units. The terrans that win do it be quickly building up a decent-sized MMM force, evacuating their mains and getting bases/production elsewhere, and eventually siezing one perfect opportunity to kill the Protoss army. The linchpin of this seems to be not losing bio and not trying to kill the tempests.
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On February 04 2015 23:01 2d_Sparrow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 20:03 TurboMaN wrote:
When I faced this on ladder (High diamond EU) I made marines only and dropped him with 2 Medivacs while holding the base with Vikings and Turrets (repair). The protoss has almost no units which means you can kill his base. Replay pls, everyone says don't make vikings or turrets vs this so i have no idea how you held.
Maxed out tempest based army beats maxed out viking based army.
What was initially asked was a proxy tempest play which means the protoss army has very few units. Turrets+Vikings stalls tempests long enough (due to the tempest's low DPS) for packs of marine/medivacs to just base race them.
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On February 04 2015 19:23 2d_Sparrow wrote:
Does anyone have a replay of anyone beating proxy tempest, It seems ridiculously strong.
http://drop.sc/393466
Just a whole lot of patience man.
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Just a whole lot of patience man.
Sorry I meant proxy tempest with a 4 gate all on 1 base, this replay is not useful.
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How do you avoid base trades in TvT, especially on these big maps? I hate them, win or lose. I've been trying to do stuff other than turtle mech, namely marine / tank.
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On February 07 2015 08:03 KingofGods wrote:
How do you avoid base trades in TvT, especially on these big maps? I hate them, win or lose. I've been trying to do stuff other than turtle mech, namely marine / tank.
When I go Marine/Tank TvT I usually like to move out fast with 3~ tanks and just set up pressure. He has to waste army trying to dislodge you or give up his position and go for a counter drop. When you know it's coming, it's a lot easier to deal with.
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i havent played HOTS in a long time because I do prefer playing WINGS, but i started having the desire to play HOTS again. I was just wondering for every match-up in TvP and TvT, what are the basic openings?
are reapers good for both races on all maps (if not, what maps are not good for them) and in replacement what build should you be going with?
because in WINGS i always went 1rax no gas expo, so just wondering if there was a safe build similar to that.
but that wasnt confusing haha
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base trades in tvt aren't avoided, only mitigated. You want to have very good vision coverage around your main for the incoming doom drop (sensor towers etc) as well as marines covering every attack path available to see if his army is nearby. If you don't see his army and yours is out of position then commence the base trading!
The most important aspect of the trade is having your tanks in a place that's extremely difficult for him to get at. Behind raxes or up the cliff into the main are common. Having 2-4 tanks there with even just 5-10 marines there are incredibly hard to dislodge and can defeat a much stronger force.
If it gets to the point where you've evacuated scvs and are flying buildings around the most important thing to do once you've landed a cc somewhere is to tech up to cloak banshee and just keep flinging those at the opponent until you win. Try and keep in mind relative army strengths and economic capability to help you decide whether to defend or to keep attacking.
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On February 07 2015 16:44 ROOTiaguz wrote:
base trades in tvt aren't avoided, only mitigated. You want to have very good vision coverage around your main for the incoming doom drop (sensor towers etc) as well as marines covering every attack path available to see if his army is nearby. If you don't see his army and yours is out of position then commence the base trading!
The most important aspect of the trade is having your tanks in a place that's extremely difficult for him to get at. Behind raxes or up the cliff into the main are common. Having 2-4 tanks there with even just 5-10 marines there are incredibly hard to dislodge and can defeat a much stronger force.
If it gets to the point where you've evacuated scvs and are flying buildings around the most important thing to do once you've landed a cc somewhere is to tech up to cloak banshee and just keep flinging those at the opponent until you win. Try and keep in mind relative army strengths and economic capability to help you decide whether to defend or to keep attacking.
At the end of your post you mentioned army strength and economic ability as things to help decide to attack or defend but when do you do each? I do really like your note about teching immediately to banshees. I will definitely make that my go to when things get as crazy as they do in a base trade.
I played a crazy marine tank vs marine tank game which resulted in a base trade and evacuation of all buildings and scv's. I put us at pretty even economic-wise but probably give him a lead there because I think he was able to save quite a few more scv's. I think the army values were pretty close but I knew that my tank lead would easily win a straight up engagement where I was sieged up so instead of actually trying to macro from that weird position but instead was super aggressive and knew that anywhere he set up production I could completely kill it off as well as his army if he engaged me.
Which brings me back to that original question of attacking and defending. I mean I am just BEGINNING to realize when to attack and defend in a regular game but given the craziness of a TvT base trade I have trouble doing anything except trying to be hyper-aggressive and end the game which normally means using the current army I have and not trying to build up again at all. It is also very tough in knowing economic capabilities in this scenario.
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EPT
