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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
Secret Spring is fun but my guess it will be banned by all Zergs that don't want to be forcefielded to death or dying to narrow choke and cliff positionnings. This map can be abused using medivacs and especially tanks. It might be a map where tanks are really effective again. The two other I didn't play that much on so no clue . Expedition lost will be good for mech in TvT I guess because it is easy to defend properly 3 bases with tanks and not so much drop area to exploit. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On January 11 2015 14:32 EJK wrote: Oracle finishes at that time, but gets to your base by 5:20-5:25 depending where it was proxied. Eng bay takes 35 seconds + turret takes 25 seconds to build. Line it up accordingly Proxy immortal is a very real build. It is a gateway attack that will hit around the same time that blink hits, around 7:30 I believe. You can scout this by seeing multiple sentries is a big tell, coz you don't have enough gas to make stalkers and immortals on 1 base. 7rr is a real build on 2 bases. It is designed to counter cc first openings and instead of spending the first 100 gas on speed, you build 7-9 roaches. They will hit at about 6:30 I believe, and you need to have a wall up and pull scvs. The goal of the roaches is to pick off as many scvs as possible. Again, this is just when someone opens up cc first, it is a soft counter to that build. 2base muta will hit at 9:30 if first 100 gas is used for lair instead of speed, but it will otherwise hit at 10 mins if they get speed and then lair without taking drones off of gas. Yes, I said the oracle completion time because obviously it depends on the map and proxy location. Proxy immortal is not a build I have seen since I started playing again in October, probably in about 1000+ ladder games. Traditionally 7rr refers to a 1 base 7 roach rush which you also pretty much never see. 2base 7rr isn't exactly a "rush" just a roach pressure. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On January 12 2015 13:06 neptunusfisk wrote: I have huge problems controlling my army lategame. I mean... how do you control group your stuff? Ghosts in main army - can't stim. Ghosts on another key - I mess up. Vikings? Should have own key? Am I just to bad for this?  Play around with it and do what feels most natural/effective to you. I personally play w/ ghosts on my main hotkey (tab to stim) and vikings on a separate one. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On January 12 2015 18:35 graNite wrote: I want to talk about the new season maps. They added two with inbase naturals and i dont know how i can pressure that in tvp. protoss was already so safe with the msc but now i cant even bunker rush early expos any more. On Secret Spring, the overcharge on main nexus doesn't protect the entire main, so you can still poke around a bit. It's actually easier to pressure than it is on most maps with front naturals. Bunkering early expos was never common. Since MSC exists pretty much any pressure pre-medivacs is just to force overcharge usage or pick off a couple probes. This is the case on any map. In general, you shouldn't be playing a style that requires you to deal lethal damage to a 2 base protoss. 2 base is generally considered safe/stable for protoss, you can only really start to punish them when they take a 3rd. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On January 13 2015 04:35 MockHamill wrote: In the new map pool which maps are good for Mech? Deadwing is good of course, but I am not sure which of others that should be used. I'm not a mech player but I've been toying with it a little on the new maps. Inferno Pools - awful IMO, it's huge and the expansion pattern is really bad, especially on cross spawns. I guess on vertical spawns it's not too bad as you can easily push towards the 3rd while taking your own 3rd/4th. Vaani - It's okay but not great, it's pretty reasonable to defend bases but pushing is a little difficult since the distance is pretty large and your opponent can easily take the gold on the opposite side of the map and you can do very little to punish it. Doable though. Secret Spring - Pretty decent. The 3rd is not too easy secure but there aren't too many attack paths to keep track of and your opponent will likely have to expand towards you. Securing the 3rd will be harder than on Vaani for example but past that it should be reasonable. Expedition Lost - I actually like this map a lot for mech - At least vs me zergs have been pretty much always taking the 3rd that is farther from the main (i.e the one that is NOT outside the destructible rocks leading to main). Which means you can pretty easily take a 3rd by your own rocks and take your 4th as you push towards them. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On January 14 2015 22:38 SatedSC2 wrote: I beat plenty of people with proxy Immortal rushes last season (I'm yet to play this season). It seems to work really well as a reactionary counter to CC first openings, but I'm only playing at a high Master/low GM level so it might just be that my opponents are "bad". In any case, it's definitely a "real" build for ~99% of people playing this game. I read on reddit/r/starcraft that "reactionary" isn't the right term, it actually means that you're really conservative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary The proper term is apparently "reactive". Thought I'd chip in. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On January 14 2015 22:38 SatedSC2 wrote: I beat plenty of people with proxy Immortal rushes last season (I'm yet to play this season). It seems to work really well as a reactionary counter to CC first openings, but I'm only playing at a high Master/low GM level so it might just be that my opponents are "bad". In any case, it's definitely a "real" build for ~99% of people playing this game. Immortal bust shouldn't be that good of a counter to CC first compared to any other Terran build. Reason is that CC first gets a shit-ton of Marines and Marines are definitely what you want versus that play. I almost guarantee that the failure is lack of Bunker spam rather than working particularly well against 1 build or another. The best response to proxy Immortals as Terran is a lot of Bunkers and grind out those Medivacs as close to normal timing as possible. Going for Immortals and proxied to boot means that tech is really delayed on the Protoss and they're basically locked out of an easy swap to Colossi because you can push them back before the Colossi hit the field and Colossi produced from a proxy are just indescribably bad. 9/10 games where they try to robo bust me and don't kill me immediately I just steamroll them with bio-mine shortly after. The other 10% they go Dark Templar and kill me with the filthiest of warpins. | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
On January 14 2015 18:34 Pokebunny wrote: Yes, I said the oracle completion time because obviously it depends on the map and proxy location. Proxy immortal is not a build I have seen since I started playing again in October, probably in about 1000+ ladder games. Traditionally 7rr refers to a 1 base 7 roach rush which you also pretty much never see. 2base 7rr isn't exactly a "rush" just a roach pressure. Yes, I just added in when it should arrive at you're base and how long an eng bay and turrets take to build, just relevant info. 2base roach rushes has more relevance as a "rush" vs "pressure" because zerg cuts drones around 22 to pump out a bit more then 7 roaches, I think it's usually closer to 8-10 before droning back up, meaning they HAVE to kill a good amount of scvs to stay in the game. The roaches come at the fastest possible time after the 15 hatch is planted down. However, the rushed roaches are only produced quickly to apply pressure, so whether it should be officially called one or the other doesn't really matter except to know what we refer to when the build is described. | ||
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Vraggeol
Czech Republic15 Posts
Today, I see almost all pro TvZ games being Reaper FE on 2-player maps and either Reaper FE or CC First on bigger maps. Reapers usually get deflected, and Terran switches to hellions to push creep spread back a little bit and force queens. Not much lings, so the Zerg is relatively safe to drone. Terran takes his third and goes full into the marine- marauder-medivac-mine tech. I'm used to do some sort of Rax CC 3Rax, pressuring the third with ~12 marines before addons on barracks and forcing shitton of lings if the zerg wants to save his third. He doesn't need speedlings though, unlike reaper/hellion play. Reaper/hellion scouting is replaced by one SCV scouting after the rax and then periodically checking for the third. Marines pressuring at his third scout next and then I start fully engaging when my medivacs are produced. Now, I want to ask - why is pro's build better? Is it because of scouting? Or because of the mobility of the reapers/hellions, which terrans save way longer than I do save my marines and force quick gas from the zerg? Of course, maybe my opponents (high plat, low dia currently) are just bad and don't punish me. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15981 Posts
On January 16 2015 20:50 Vraggeol wrote: I wanted to ask about reaper/hellion into 4M opening in TvZ. Today, I see almost all pro TvZ games being Reaper FE on 2-player maps and either Reaper FE or CC First on bigger maps. Reapers usually get deflected, and Terran switches to hellions to push creep spread back a little bit and force queens. Not much lings, so the Zerg is relatively safe to drone. Terran takes his third and goes full into the marine- marauder-medivac-mine tech. I'm used to do some sort of Rax CC 3Rax, pressuring the third with ~12 marines before addons on barracks and forcing shitton of lings if the zerg wants to save his third. He doesn't need speedlings though, unlike reaper/hellion play. Reaper/hellion scouting is replaced by one SCV scouting after the rax and then periodically checking for the third. Marines pressuring at his third scout next and then I start fully engaging when my medivacs are produced. Now, I want to ask - why is pro's build better? Is it because of scouting? Or because of the mobility of the reapers/hellions, which terrans save way longer than I do save my marines and force quick gas from the zerg? Of course, maybe my opponents (high plat, low dia currently) are just bad and don't punish me. Bomber does this sometimes with combatshield on the marines. If the opponent isn't prepared it can deal serious damage, but you have to rely on him not scouting what you are doing because otherwise he will just build speedlings and banes and crush you - you can't retreat with marines. | ||
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Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On January 16 2015 22:49 Charoisaur wrote: Bomber does this sometimes with combatshield on the marines. If the opponent isn't prepared it can deal serious damage, but you have to rely on him not scouting what you are doing because otherwise he will just build speedlings and banes and crush you - you can't retreat with marines. This, another thing that is good when you open reaper hellion is that if you manage to keep your hellions alive you can transform them to hellbats along with your first 2 medivacs and 16 marines that I assume you move out with. | ||
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SRGrasshopper
6 Posts
Finally (sorry for asking so many questions) are there any measures I can take to not die to massive tech switches late-game? Thanks guys! | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
On January 17 2015 02:55 SRGrasshopper wrote: Is there a good way to deal with mutas as mech? Recently I've been losing a lot to magic boxed mutas killing all my thors. What kind of compositional/ defensive measures should I be taking? Also does anyone know any good offensive mech options against a muta player? Finally (sorry for asking so many questions) are there any measures I can take to not die to massive tech switches late-game? Thanks guys! Viking + ravens + thors are good vs mutas.You can either PDD or SM the mutas. To punish a muta player just send around a lot of hellions since you'll pump yer gas into thors/ravens/vikings/tanks and have excess minerals. or you go thor hellbat mech (this dies to roach hydra comp) as defensive measures, Just build turrets EVERYWHERE You think you have enough turrets? You build more. To survive tech switches Late game, have a good composition of tanks/thors/ravens/vikings. | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
On January 17 2015 08:51 KonanTenshi wrote: Viking + ravens + thors are good vs mutas.You can either PDD or SM the mutas. To punish a muta player just send around a lot of hellions since you'll pump yer gas into thors/ravens/vikings/tanks and have excess minerals. or you go thor hellbat mech (this dies to roach hydra comp) as defensive measures, Just build turrets EVERYWHERE You think you have enough turrets? You build more. To survive tech switches Late game, have a good composition of tanks/thors/ravens/vikings. never sm, always pdd. Against even low level muta players, you should never lose mutas to SM because of how fast they are | ||
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Westy
England808 Posts
What do I do to end the game before the half hour mark? I play bio these days simply because I cannot stand TvT turtle mech. However defending against bio seems to be very easy these days, especially on these new choke point maps. So what do I do? Attacking = losing. With mass turret rings, vikings and sensor towers dropping is not an option unless its a map with lots of air space (not many in this map pool). I am in masters, and masters terran players who play the turtle style are very good at it and do not die to any pressure. What are my choices other than just quitting the second I see tanks and a turret ring? | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On January 17 2015 21:52 Westy wrote: What do you do against mass turtle TvT players? So many of them about now, and I HATE playing hour long games where a player just sits there on three/ four bases with mass tanks, ravens and vikings. What do I do to end the game before the half hour mark? I play bio these days simply because I cannot stand TvT turtle mech. However defending against bio seems to be very easy these days, especially on these new choke point maps. So what do I do? Attacking = losing. With mass turret rings, vikings and sensor towers dropping is not an option unless its a map with lots of air space (not many in this map pool). I am in masters, and masters terran players who play the turtle style are very good at it and do not die to any pressure. What are my choices other than just quitting the second I see tanks and a turret ring? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/402751-the-hots-terran-help-me-thread?page=331#6613 | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On January 19 2015 09:39 Aquila- wrote: A quick question: In TvZ I very often face allins (mostly ling bane, sometimes roach bane) that I hold off with just losing the scvs at the natural but still end up losing the game. Most of the time I have 3 cc but I never feel ahead even after holding it. They follow it up with roaches, I try to counterattack with hellions or small bio army but they have already enough to hold it and instantly made 20 drones after killing some scvs. What is the best followup in such a situation? If I go into standard bio I cant take my third in time because they still have units from the push left and are happily droning behind it. Play normal and accept that its just going to be an even game even after their allin? Should I go banshee to be able to secure bases easier? And a tank in case of another roach push? Is it a good idea to go into mech in that situation considering im going banshee tank hellion already? I've broken up your post here to make it easier to give you a response. (Introduction, Situation, Question, Suggestions). First I want to tackle the "options" or suggestions you're pondering because it's a very clear answer for me: "Play normal", or rather stick with the main idea of your TvZ plan. All the other options you're suggesting (making tanks, making banshees, going for a mech build), especially the mech option, feel less like game plans and more like knee jerk reactions to what your opponent is doing which is the all in. I get the impression that the early all in throws you off quite a bit, and because of that I think that by making these heavy deviations you're only gonna get more lost. Note that I am NOT advising that you DON'T do make more banshees or make more tanks; rather what I am saying is that these things need to fit into your original game plan: what you were planning to do before the all in. Going off the assumption that you're a typical MMMM player who wants to play a 3 base 2-2 style after a 3OC opening, you need to keep the focus on this main idea. Don't get sidetracked or tunnel visioned IF you go for a deviations; Imagine: It's so easy to start to feel lost at the 10 minute mark after getting all inned and you decided to go for more banshees because typically in other games at the 10 minute mark you're materially farther ahead and you're on the comfortable path that you've practiced several times. Now you're in this situation where you're not really sure or comfortable with what Zerg is doing, you have these harassing units, the banshee, when typically you'd have a big squad of marine medivac hellion, and you haven't even taken your third base. You start to fuck up hard, you're not dispersing your attention and focus correctly between the banshee and the rest of your game and you eventually lose after the slop fest. This is the danger of ONLY thinking of "the knee jerk reaction", you don't account for the rest of the game which your ORIGINAL plan did! So the answer is: play normal, or rather go back to the main idea of your TvZ after you get all inned. You can make banshees sure, you can make a safety tank sure, but as soon as you're out of the danger zone you should try and center yourself back to your original TvZ plan because unless you're going for a counter all in that will win the game you need to have a long term game plan that will maximize your chances of success. That's your normal play. "Play normal." | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
Yes, you both SHOULD be within the grey area of being "even" after holding but losing the SCVs at your natural (one way or the other depending on how well you traded and how many SCVs he killed), but you both have different advantages and disadvantages that you need to be aware of: In terms of map control: Zerg should have the advantage immediately following the attack as Terran not only needs to spend time rebuilding and resecuring the natural, but must be wary of a second attempt at an all in; with 3OC's you should be holding off with just enough units, so you're probably in no shape to have anything more than light map control units such as banshees or hellions on the map. This is going to make it easier for him to drone his third base, have units camping ready to delay Terran's third base, and for him to spread creep. Terran should have the advantage in map control once medivacs are on the field as the all in has most likely delayed the spire for Zerg; even if Zerg does not plan on making mutalisks, drops and unkillable creep raiding parties should be keeping Zerg occupied on his side of the map. Also, even if he's not planning on going for mutalisks, medivacs should be on the field as Zerg is wrapping up droning his Third base and starting his Fourth. Relative timing is on your side my friend. Once both players have secured their third bases who has advantage in map control is largely situational: there could be a lot of creep on the map, there could not be. There could have been a lot of difficulty building up to the 3 base economy on both sides or not. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that Terran should have the initiative with how late Spire and/or how late the numbers of units needed to cover Zerg's bases. Units: Zerg will definitely have the advantage here if his attack was successful enough; if he doesn't have a unit advantage you probably defended a little too well for his sake. Economy: The economy game should be neutral and will probably be influenced by the above factors as map control and unit counts will affect how easily Terran can take his 3rd base and saturate without taking losses in material or time from the unit advantage Zerg should have. What's your edge then? Upgrades. If your defense was adequate and you have the ability to make enough stuff to make use of it, upgrades should be the giant advantage you have over your opponent. You'll probably have a smaller army leading up to it, but if you can get an evenly sized army by 2-2 you'll steamroll him. So if your biggest advantage is in upgrades, don't feel pressured to take your third base as fast as you usually do, or to be as aggressive as you usually do. Your upgrades are the big second wind that's going to knock the Zerg out: make sure you live long enough to get to that point. | ||
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