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Northern Ireland461 Posts
There are a lot of reasons why what you are doing will not work.
You are much better off following standard builds, korean terran replays, noting the timings and benchmarks down, and trying to execute it as well as you can.
I would recommend gas first banshee TvT, and reaper hellion 3CC TvZ
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In TvT nowadays you have to 1base if you don't want to die randomly to a whole lot of gas first styles. ThorZain's build wouldn't do so well against dedicated hellion drops, raven viking tank pushes, banshee play, reapers, and a whole lot of other stuff. Because of limited scouting you have to auto-build turrets most of the time with a 3rax play like Thorzain's build, which then cuts into your economy and unit count so you die against a lot of other builds and end up behind against a lot of others. Try doing a gas first reaper build (normal gas first, except you build a reaper instead of a second marine.) It's been discussed some on this forum and you can probably find examples in any major TvT series recently.
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On December 21 2014 07:29 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:In TvT nowadays you have to 1base if you don't want to die randomly to a whole lot of gas first styles. ThorZain's build wouldn't do so well against dedicated hellion drops, raven viking tank pushes, banshee play, reapers, and a whole lot of other stuff. Because of limited scouting you have to auto-build turrets most of the time with a 3rax play like Thorzain's build, which then cuts into your economy and unit count so you die against a lot of other builds and end up behind against a lot of others. Try doing a gas first reaper build (normal gas first, except you build a reaper instead of a second marine.) It's been discussed some on this forum and you can probably find examples in any major TvT series recently.
I disagree that you have to go 1 base. That's an unnecessarily limiting point of view. The meta is gas-first versus gas-first, often with immediate or delayed banshees, but going 15-gas for instance and defending with any combination of Marines, Hellions, Tanks, Vikings, or Raven is perfectly serviceable if you are vigilant about scouting and the map isn't too easy to exploit via two-Medivac Raven doom drop.
Possible builds seen at the pro level with a fair degree of regularity:
1. Gas-first Banshee/Marine/Tank (allin, pressure, or defensive)
2. Gas-first Marine/Raven/Tank expand
3. Gas-first Marine/Hellion elevator (with or without optional Mine)
4. 15-gas Marine/Hellion/Viking expand
5. Reaper FE into Marine/Tank defense
That covers a lot of the meta, I believe.
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On December 22 2014 02:48 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2014 07:29 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:In TvT nowadays you have to 1base if you don't want to die randomly to a whole lot of gas first styles. ThorZain's build wouldn't do so well against dedicated hellion drops, raven viking tank pushes, banshee play, reapers, and a whole lot of other stuff. Because of limited scouting you have to auto-build turrets most of the time with a 3rax play like Thorzain's build, which then cuts into your economy and unit count so you die against a lot of other builds and end up behind against a lot of others. Try doing a gas first reaper build (normal gas first, except you build a reaper instead of a second marine.) It's been discussed some on this forum and you can probably find examples in any major TvT series recently. I disagree that you have to go 1 base. That's an unnecessarily limiting point of view. The meta is gas-first versus gas-first, often with immediate or delayed banshees, but going 15-gas for instance and defending with any combination of Marines, Hellions, Tanks, Vikings, or Raven is perfectly serviceable if you are vigilant about scouting and the map isn't too easy to exploit via two-Medivac Raven doom drop. Possible builds seen at the pro level with a fair degree of regularity: 1. Gas-first Banshee/Marine/Tank (allin, pressure, or defensive) 2. Gas-first Marine/Raven/Tank expand 3. Gas-first Marine/Hellion elevator (with or without optional Mine) 4. 15-gas Marine/Hellion/Viking expand 5. Reaper FE into Marine/Tank defense That covers a lot of the meta, I believe.
Sorry, I was wrong and misspoke. I'll restate my position.
I think it is probably more difficult to go bio out of an expand build then out of either a banshee or raven build. Mech is a different story, as infrastructure/upgrades aren't quite as important, but with a reaper expand against banshee or raven it's very easy to mess up on building too many turrets or defenses, cutting too many scvs, being too conservative, and you end up with significantly later stim, CS, and 3 barracks marine production, which can often lose you the game. Alternatively, you can put down your infrastructure or third far too early and then die to a strong raven/viking/tank/marine push. Without good scouting and gamesense I think it can work out very badly for you. It is a far more difficult style to play and I don't think it gives you any extra advantages if you go bio, especially against a gas first player who moves quickly out of raven/viking/tank play.
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How do I beat swarm hosts in TVZ with mech? After they get to a certain point, I just feel like I can't beat them and my army is too slow to really push out. I never want to engage swarm hosts but they start sieging on my naturals and I don't know what to do.
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As a bio player, how do you guys approach playing vs. a turtly mech player? On most of the current maps, it is really easy to turtle on three bases for the mech player. I don't seem to have success breaking them with bio pushes. So what I was trying lately was just outexpanding them and teching to air. BUT so far, I had little success doing that also. The meching playing just adds 3-4 thors. He maxes out and moves across the map. At that point in the game, I don't have BC's yet. My raven, viking, banshee air combo gets completely denied by the thors. It takes ages for marauders to kill hellbats, his tanks shrekk the rest of my ground. I am diamond EU, had 2300 ladder points last season.
Any advice is really appreciated. Thanks.
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Ok so what build order do you suggest vs random players? I don't know what race they are so I don't know what build to do and most of the time I use the wrong build order and I pretty much lose because the random player had a build order win. Like one game I did a 14cc hellion build that I use for TvZ but it turns out the guy was a terran and I pretty much just lost.
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On December 25 2014 11:15 NexT_SC2 wrote:
Ok so what build order do you suggest vs random players? I don't know what race they are so I don't know what build to do and most of the time I use the wrong build order and I pretty much lose because the random player had a build order win. Like one game I did a 14cc hellion build that I use for TvZ but it turns out the guy was a terran and I pretty much just lost.
open reaper.
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On December 23 2014 23:17 pali_ wrote:
As a bio player, how do you guys approach playing vs. a turtly mech player? On most of the current maps, it is really easy to turtle on three bases for the mech player. I don't seem to have success breaking them with bio pushes. So what I was trying lately was just outexpanding them and teching to air. BUT so far, I had little success doing that also. The meching playing just adds 3-4 thors. He maxes out and moves across the map. At that point in the game, I don't have BC's yet. My raven, viking, banshee air combo gets completely denied by the thors. It takes ages for marauders to kill hellbats, his tanks shrekk the rest of my ground. I am diamond EU, had 2300 ladder points last season.
Any advice is really appreciated. Thanks.
Anyone?
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On December 25 2014 11:15 NexT_SC2 wrote:
Ok so what build order do you suggest vs random players? I don't know what race they are so I don't know what build to do and most of the time I use the wrong build order and I pretty much lose because the random player had a build order win. Like one game I did a 14cc hellion build that I use for TvZ but it turns out the guy was a terran and I pretty much just lost.
either proxy and cheese them because you hate random players or just go for a 12 barracks 13 gas build. scout at 13 supply and by the time your SCV reaches them you can make a decision on what to do with the gas.
either you're going to go for a reaper expansion vs a T/Z/P, a reactor expansion vs a T/Z/P, a factory build into starport vs a T, or whatever the hell you want lol.
after deciding on your opening just go back into your gameplan vs T/Z/P
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On December 23 2014 23:17 pali_ wrote:
As a bio player, how do you guys approach playing vs. a turtly mech player? On most of the current maps, it is really easy to turtle on three bases for the mech player. I don't seem to have success breaking them with bio pushes. So what I was trying lately was just outexpanding them and teching to air. BUT so far, I had little success doing that also. The meching playing just adds 3-4 thors. He maxes out and moves across the map. At that point in the game, I don't have BC's yet. My raven, viking, banshee air combo gets completely denied by the thors. It takes ages for marauders to kill hellbats, his tanks shrekk the rest of my ground. I am diamond EU, had 2300 ladder points last season.
Any advice is really appreciated. Thanks.
First, you need to make sure that you're not throwing units into the meatgrinder; if your opponent is going to be staying defensive let him. Mechanic is strongest when armies commit into mechanic army.
Focus more on controlling space around your opponent's siege line. Obviously if you see an opening and you can get in some hits then do so but use your judgement.
Try and have at least two big armies threatening two points of contention for the mechanic player; if he tries to move out and deal with one army then the other one should be counter attacking with the first bionic army stimming/boosting to join the counterattack. Make it a real bitch for him.
Second with this spacing and map control, you need to be taking the 4th base as early as possible while delaying his 4th as much as you can. The first step helps you accomplish both: you're buying time for your 4th base to pay off for itself and you're delaying his fourth just by having your army threatening and posturing. This is going to help you whatever you decide to do with the extra money whether it's starports or more cash for the remax. Try and get a 5th OC going on top of what your later game anti mech plans are ASAP.
Third you need to identify what he's putting into his army; if he's being passive then it should be relatively easy to scan him (especially since you have an extra base or two!) and see whether he's going to be growing for a very strong muscle army (Tanks, Hellbats, Vikings) or a long term army of Ravens and such. You want to try and get a counter air army (that should be bigger because you got additional gas income going faster) relatively around the same time as him otherwise you're going to get caught with your pants down right?
Fourth: as soon as he starts to secure the fourth you need to make some moves on him. Don't suicide, but take advantage of the fact that he's going to have to spread out pretty thin across four bases. At this point in the game, 4 medivacs worth of Marines and Marauders can break through a lot of defenses while you still have another giant bionic army he has to worry about.
Try to get some trades in; either you're freeing up supply for the air remax or if you saw he's staying on a ground army you're making it a little weaker (plus making him more hesitant about moving across the map and protossing with his giant ball).
Best case scenario you're going to end up killing one of his four bases; the least you want to do is rock the boat and give him a hard time as your fifth is going and you're either going full MMM on his ass or playing for a late game sky army.
Keep expanding and force him to start thinking about moving across the map: either he's going to have to open himself up or you're going to be getting the lead. But this all depends on whether you're a good enough player to take advantage of this.
Also building that Siege Tank count is REALLY important if you're going to be spacing vs a passive player; you're going to need those tanks to dissuade him from creeping and leap frogging with his own tanks. If he wants to dislodge you then he's going to need to bring a lot of shit. (It isn't as important if you're going to be MMMing him to death with drops and harassment but fuck it I think I've established that I think it's stupid).
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On December 23 2014 23:17 pali_ wrote:
As a bio player, how do you guys approach playing vs. a turtly mech player? On most of the current maps, it is really easy to turtle on three bases for the mech player. I don't seem to have success breaking them with bio pushes. So what I was trying lately was just outexpanding them and teching to air. BUT so far, I had little success doing that also. The meching playing just adds 3-4 thors. He maxes out and moves across the map. At that point in the game, I don't have BC's yet. My raven, viking, banshee air combo gets completely denied by the thors. It takes ages for marauders to kill hellbats, his tanks shrekk the rest of my ground. I am diamond EU, had 2300 ladder points last season.
Any advice is really appreciated. Thanks.
well, I'm only a diamond Terran myself, but imo going for air is definately the right choice.
Banshees only makes sense if your opponent is going for a big timing and you surprise him with more vikings and then your banshees kill the rest.
In a stalemate situation of tank line vs. tank line, I personally prefer ravens to banshees and to BCs.
I'd even say: ravens > BCs > Banshees
So scouting with pokes and/or scans is absolutely necessary.
In case he's turteling a lot, I usually add a second armory (get the upgrades going, but thats not a must), get ravens not BC's and have more starports than him. It's important to know what he's up to. When he adds Ravens early on that's a sign of turtle mech.
Dropping into a turtle mech player can be difficult and kinda expected by the turtle mecher.
Regarding the Thors:
As a mech player you don't really want to make Thors to get air control, I feel like thats more of an emergency call. If you have more vikings and Ravens/cloaked Banshees/BC's, the mech player is in trouble. He can't replace lost tanks easily and attacking into tanks marauder without air control sucks.
So if he does a timing with his push on 3 base (as u kinda said) than he can't be overly turteling. Turtle mech is more about getting the perfect composition with 3/3 upgrades and Raven / Viking air superiority, imo.
If he pushes out he obviously won't be sieged to 100%, so you need to hit and run with stimmed marauders. At best all the way from his base to yours.
Dunno if that is of any help, but besides the theory it's about execution and micro. That's usually my main issue xD
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On December 26 2014 01:35 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2014 11:15 NexT_SC2 wrote:
Ok so what build order do you suggest vs random players? I don't know what race they are so I don't know what build to do and most of the time I use the wrong build order and I pretty much lose because the random player had a build order win. Like one game I did a 14cc hellion build that I use for TvZ but it turns out the guy was a terran and I pretty much just lost. either proxy and cheese them because you hate random players or just go for a 12 barracks 13 gas build. scout at 13 supply and by the time your SCV reaches them you can make a decision on what to do with the gas. either you're going to go for a reaper expansion vs a T/Z/P, a reactor expansion vs a T/Z/P, a factory build into starport vs a T, or whatever the hell you want lol. after deciding on your opening just go back into your gameplan vs T/Z/P
Gosh, how I hate playing random players. Reaper FE is what most terrans do, but I also kept on getting Terrans who proxy 2 rax me with reapers. I feel like thats the biggest thread as a T vs. random players.
So I scout after my supply depot for proxys.
@NexT_SC2: How do you proxy cheese vs. a random player without knowing their race? I feel like there is no build that works against every race.
Proxy reapers suck against Toss. 11/11 sucks against Terrans.
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you underestimate how incompetent random players usually are about defending cheese and the power of 8/8/8 heathen.
why are you scouting after supply depot that's almost always stupid unless you go for some engie bay block into cc first vs P or Z. If you scout at 13 you're going to see no barracks in his base, no gas in his base, and not enough SCVs for it to be a CC first. then you build a bunker on the high ground, go into a tank and go take your expansion and you win because random players who spawn as terran are completely awful at TvT
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What is a reasonable time to get a second eBay and armory in tvp? Assume I have +1 attack w my first pair of medivacs around 11 minutes and start armor immediately. Should I cut medivacs or Viking production temporarily to get those upgrades? I find I never have enough gas in mid to late game....
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Ok so someone told me to use the marine hellion elevator build on imbabuilds for tvt. I've been losing to pretty much every terran I play because they always fast expand and are ahead on upgrades and economy and it's hard for me to catch up. Here's a replay: http://drop.sc/390755 . Maybe I didn't do enough damage to set them back? Or is it a build order loss?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina27 Posts
Hello,
It's been a while since i've posted here. I've been focusing in improving my mechanics, my macro and i think i got a bit better since now i am facing some plat players. However i'm still struggling against zergs. At least against aggressive Zergs. I've faced 3 zergs who opened with some speedling aggression.
This is a game against a plat zerg, he opened with that speedling aggression.
http://drop.sc/390758
How do I scout that?.
He then wrecked me with his mutas harassed my whole base and killed my workers, A mistake i've done was to attack him blindly and i didn't see he had an army near of his base
I've been practicing a lot my tvz.against the AI. My main goal is to be able to reach 100 supply at 10 minutes.
`Suggestions are welcome and thanks in advance for your help.
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On December 27 2014 03:52 NexT_SC2 wrote:Ok so someone told me to use the marine hellion elevator build on imbabuilds for tvt. I've been losing to pretty much every terran I play because they always fast expand and are ahead on upgrades and economy and it's hard for me to catch up. Here's a replay: http://drop.sc/390755 . Maybe I didn't do enough damage to set them back? Or is it a build order loss?
Can you post a link to the build you're using? I expected it to be this one but you went gas first, didn't reactor the hellions and completely skipped the CC until 8 minutes, obviously you're going to be behind then if you don't do damage. The good news is that by executing the build i linked correctly, you will do the very same attack (i.e. medivac with 4 hellions and a few marines) at the same timing as in the replay (i.e. ~7 minutes) but with a second CC secured as early as you're opponent.
Good luck!
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EPT
